Mazda Pro Cars into FA

[reisertracing]

I noted in the new "Sportscar" that the Pro Mazda has been assigned into FA, that hacks me off as I used to race the Formula Mazda when it was first in SCCA and was a regional car for several years before allowing it into National Comp.
Now this new Pro Car is grouped with Atlantics without the numbers needed and as has been usually customary a trial in regional class.
The FV people have been trying for years to get their Formula First car into SCCA comp and due to shortage of 1200cc parts thew 1600cc motor is more available and the old FV uses drum brakes and is generally hard to get quality parts . Now the Mazda folks and that element that went to IMSA for sanctioning NOT the SCCA for their "Pro" series is now allowed into the FA ranks and wlecomed inot the SCCA.

Let me know what you think. This smells!

[Daniel]

I was surprised when I saw it in the new GCR. I don't remember seeing ithe rule change proposal in Fasttrack but I guess I don't always read the FA stuff thoroughly.

[Jtovo]

Not sure if I am reading your post correctly but...


It is not that the Mazda has been given National Recognition, it is just that it was homoglated into FA. Which is the same place the FSCCA was allowed into. So they did not really buffalo you on this, they are really playing by the rules already established in FA. (I think I am correct on this one, let me know if I am not)

PLUS...they are probably getting themselves out of some deep doo-doo by doing this.

[D.T. Benner]

With something like 100 of the new Pro Mazdas sold SCCA could smell ENTRY FEE money out there. Last year SCCA made Pro Mazdas run Formula S (a regional only class) when they patitioned to run Formula Atlantic there was very little opposition from the membership. This is a case where the club sees a trickle down opportunity. Many of the buyers of these cars have more money than talent SO rather than be embarrassed by the GoKart kids in a pro race they will run SCCA races. Also they will use SCCA race weekends for practice.We saw that last year here in Northern California. Last weekend at Fontana/California Speedway Marco Andretti ran his Pro Mazda in a double Regional. I think his best lap was 4 seconds faster then the "Real" Atlantics. In the late 1980's I recall a driver who managed to get an Indy/CART car into regionals because at one time that brand/model of chassis was used as a CanAm car so he had Homolagation papers for it. I was in that race group and seeing that thing on the track was intimidating to say the least.

[Greg Mercurio]

May also have been part of the settlement by SCCA with Formula Mazda folks.. Rumor is that they settled.

[KevinFirlein]

No conspiracy here boys. I am the one that recommended it way back in March of last year. It was put in, i think, the may fastrack iirc. This one was pretty much a no brainer slam dunk. Lets see, a 240 hp, open wheel winged carbon tub, with a sequential gearbox, kinda sounds like a typical FA to me. Plus at the recommended weight they carry 5 pounds more then the new swifts so already have the extra weight required for the sequential box. I talked with a few comp commite members on this since i am well known for opposing cars being dumped into FA. This one however fits the mold. Damn sure fits better then the original FM, zetec, or FSCCA cars, all of which are/were rolling chicanes come runoffs time when in FA.

A properly driven FA car has nothing to fear from a pro mazda so noones car value plummets with the addition. If they get beat by one its their own fault and not because the car was an overdog. Frankly adding the pro mazda and giving the F3 cars their proper wheel sizes were great moves by the comp board for a change. Far better then dumping underpowered space frame cars into the class.

Kevin Firlein

[reisertracing]

I am somewhat upset because I used to race with some of these Pro Mazda drivers and they indeed have more money then talent. But, then again a class like formula first, that began because of a need to continue the Volkswagen formula has been pushed aside for several years and many FV drivers, engine builders, and suppliers have worked hard to develop the car and get SCCA to make some moves. I guess they aren't Mazda and monet talks and BS walks, although these people aren't BSers.They are facing a shortage of 1200cc motor parts and wheels and to continue this class or evolve it there needs to be some changes. They aren't rich and powerful so the SCCA has pushed them aside while Pro Mazda is admitted ASAP, somehow the name "PRO" mazda kinda looks funny in CLUB racing.

I have talked with some FA drivers and engineers and they were caught out by this new rule. I admit the cars look good and they seem to be fast and solid. I race a RX-7 enduro car and IT-7 when not trying my FC but this situation could happen with FC. The Formula SCCA cars were slower the FA in the runoffs and got involved in some incidents that perhaps determined the outcome.

I am for the American way and he who builds a better mousetrap etc., but the sole purpose of this Pro Mazda Series and car were for a PRO series and those guys were elitist that felt better then the SCCA, i.e., IMSA sactioning. Now they realize that these cars have to race a limited series and travel fairly extensively to make all the races so they want to race locally and in SCCA events.

I don't think allowing cars into SCCA "club" events for practice is fair and it takes away from those who only can compete in Club events and not a pro series.

I guess if I had a Pro Mazda I would feel differently. When I had one of the first Star Mazda cars in 1996, we only ran regionals and had a Pro Series sactioned by SCCA. Then we got national class. We still in the regionals had to run under the FA class even though were were "outclassed".

I felt like last years FA field was very strong and the cars (except FSCCA) were pretty even and sensed a resurgence of FA.

We shall see what this turns out.
I apologize for being long winded, but it kinda opens up some old wounds and doesn't seem right.

[RS Motorsport]

I think his best lap was 4 seconds faster then the "Real" Atlantics.

Two questions. First, if the Pro Mazda cars in the hands of similarly skilled drivers is 4 seconds to the Pro Mazda's benefit doesn't this mean by definition that a "real" Atlantic is going to lose the National title? I'd think the 'real' Atlantic owners would be outraged that there is a new car in class that by design is significantly faster. How about all those safety concerns? The FSC cars were about that much slower right?

Second, (and a bit contrarian to my first question) there has been talk that without FA being a 'catch-all' class for new formula cars that there are not enough 'real' Atlantics to keep the national status. Is this true? Is it possible the Pro Mazda platform is intended to take over FA?

Jeff

[Bob Wright]

I think you'll find with the same driver a Swift or Ralt will beat a Pro Mazda without much question- ground effects, etc make it pretty much a given. Marco was up against local FA'a. In many regions a good Zetec can win FA at the national level- but no chancce at the Runoffs.

I think the broader question touched on in this thread is introducing a new car when it antiquates the existing cars. This is not the case here with either FSCCA, Zetec or Pro Mazda in FA. In FC the addition of either FSCCA or (Pro) Zetec would render current Pinto cars also-rans. Same for what is going on with the FV class. That is something the CRB does not want.

[KevinFirlein]

Still not sure what the complaint is here. Thats one car was homolagated for a class while another was not ? Ok, i can understand that on the surface but look at the actual facts of the situation. One car fits nicely into a current class and another fits nothing in existance. The formula 1st fits nothing in national racing. Add it to FV ? sure if you want to kill off one of the most popular classes in SCCA today. Add it to FF ? Somehow i dont think you would see a long line of F1st drivers getting in line for that beating. They basically would require their own class. To get that , yes you need to prove numbers in regionals. Ive only ever see 2 F1st cars at a race so i doubt they will get their own class unless their numbers are massive on the west coast.

The original FM also was asking for its own class. So it also had to run in regionals to prove numbers. They were allowed in FA if they wanted to run nationals. That was a major mistake. But once they showed they had numbers in their own regional class they got national status and the class is very popular in some areas and almost non existant in others. Noone is asking for a seperate class for the new mazda. It was added to an existing class the same way dozens of cars are added to production classes every year.

Performance wise the car is slower then a properly driven and setup FA. ITs not even close really. Take a look at Road america. pro FA pole 1:59, pro mazda pole 2:04, not much to fear there. but the part that makes things interesting is that the mazda is easier to drive and setup for the average racer. therefore its easier to get the most out of the car. Most club racers simply cant believe just how damn fast a FA car will go thru the corners and lift off the throttle.

Ive heard the " stop complaining, your FA class would be gone without us " debates as well. While it is certainly true that the zetecs and scca cars add to the numbers they dont keep the class eligible. Ive been involved in FA for the last 10 years and the class has never been on probation or close to it.

Kevin

[Paddy O'Brien]

As a current FA competitor I have a couple of "issues" with the the inclusion of the Pro Mazdas in "my" class but am willing to take a wait and see attitude. I have a feeling that this will ultimately make the class even more expensive and more dangerous. I have spoken with a couple of comp board members as well as some drivers and teams with experience with both "real Atlantics" and the new Mazda and the impression that I get is that there are still alot of unanswered questions as to how these new cars will fit into FA. Threat of legal action "encouraged" the move to national status for the Mazda in its first year without regional probation. I totally understand, from a business point of view, why a race prep shop would want this to happen ASAP. Tech will be interesting on these cars at the club level. The Mazda cars have lots of electronic gizmos to adjust that club tech will not be able to check. 240 hp for a stock motor leaves alot of potential for "improvement". The Mazdas will lap a regular Atlantic in the rain due to thier traction control. I worry about how to race against one of the pro Mazdas with a regular atlantic. Some of the most dangerous driving I have ever experienced was in formula mazda. FM has a well earned reputation for inexperienced drivers loosing control of their Too fast of racecar. Now put these drivers in a much faster car that is 10mph faster than mine down the straight and even if my lap times are better, I will have to risk life and limb to get by on brakes and cornering and hope the Mazda driver is aware. While I want to be politically correct, I am aware of some of the Mazda drivers planning of running nationals in 05 and frankly, a big percentage will either be super aggressive or way over thier heads. Either way the odds of me crashing this year just went way up. I am just a hobby-racer(and slow) and to me the only way to loose in club racing is to crash. If FA becomes a crashfest this then I'm going vintage racing.

[RussMcB]

I wonder if there are any lap records of FA and Pro FM that we can compare.

I thought (this is from memory, very well could be wrong) that the Pro FM were easily under the FA track record when they came to Road Atlanta.

I googled briefly to see if my memory was correct, but didn't come up with anything.

If I had a "regular" FA, I would be pretty unhappy about this, unless the PFM cars are slower. Even if they are, Paddy raises valid points about straight vs. cornering speeds (and difficulty of tech inspection).

[timos]

For the most part Paddy summarizes my feelings exactly!

But as a FA "competitor" (still coming to grips with it), I won't be worried with Pro FM drivers who come up from FF or FC or karts even.

I will be *very* worried by those who learned in the older FM, because that driving style does not translate well to the new car. Some of the old hot shoes in FM had difficulty last season with the new car - you can't (shouldn't) throw it in the corner like a rag doll.

There's one particular Pro FM driver I have in mind, of course, that may make me sit out the weekend. No, I won't name names.

tim

[MGBystrom]

I for one believe it's a splendid move on the part of SCCA.

Embracing the future, and letting go of the past is something the club should do more of.

Gary Rodriquez has obviously hit another home run, and with his cars in FA, it gives the Club racer a chance to run at the Natl. level, and, participate in Pro-races when they come to town; running for money is a good thing. In time, I would not be surprised if Gary expands to prize monies for national events/runoff qualifiers as well....it fits has model of success.

Beyond that, I believe Zetec should be recognized as it's on class as well, call it FB if you like. Adopt a 10 year plan and I would buy one for the same reasons I would buy a Pro-Mazda now if the price of the Mazda wasn't. so steep.

FSCCA...let it run FB where it would not look like a runt, or FC where I would prefer to see it.

Mazda has been very good to SCCA, and to not grant their premier car a venue would be rediculous.

MGB

[KevinFirlein]

Everyone is entitled to opinions but why not race and see what happens ? I say this having already been at Sebring for the winter nationals and we ran with the FM2 with no troubles. My driver (rt-41) said racing the mazdas was alot of fun. Hell, the 2 crashes were caused by " real" atlantics not being able to keep the car facing forwards. The FM2 was on pole and got swallowed up at the start. Sorta figures with more weight and less power. The 1st FM2 finished 3rd. ( well unless the reults have changed yet again since we left. They changed 3 times in the week between the 2 races)

The mazdas are not 10 mph faster down the straights unless the " real " Fa is seriously under powered. Anything south of 250bhp isnt getting it done with a toyota. Do the cars corner differently and accel diferently ? Yup sure do. Might even have to use experience and creativity for one car to pass another...almost like actual racing eh ?

The traction control is the fly in the ointment no questions. However if anyone is getting lapped in the rain dont blame the mazda. Chances are they were getting lapped by the other " real" atlantics anyway. And if anyone are " risking life and limb " to make a pass the bad driver is them, not the car being passed.

Mid Ohio and Road america make for good comparison.
RA - 1:59.504 pro FA
RA - 2:04 pro FM2 ( by memory link wasnt working)

MO - 1:15.4 pro FA
MO - 1:19.2 pro FM2

2 completely different types of tracks, yet a proper prepared and driven FA is way faster at both.

Will a FM2 being driven 100% win a national ? yeah , i think they will win a few. they will also lose a few when the top FA competitors are racing. isnt that the point in competing ?

For the record I do not have one of the FM2 cars in my shop. I have however campaigned a RT-41 in 38 nationals since 2001. I dont blame anyone for being curious how things will turn out but why panic without actually racimg ?

Kevin

[Purple Frog]

Even though it will shuffle me farther back in most the run groups I'll be in, I think it looks like a good decision. Doesn't create a new class. Doesn't put current competitive cars out of business. Grows entries. Maybe next week they will settle with Fran-Am and we'll see 2L Renaults in FA, or the V-6...

[J Mabee]

To make things more equal they're going to have to (should) disable the traction control on the PFM. The V6 Formula Renault is a beautiful car and would kick the crap out of everyone even with me driving . BTW have you guys seen the new v8 radical - that a cool engine!

[Larry]

Kevin, there you go again...blurting out the truth! "But what if I get beat in my Toyota-powered FA by an FM2?" Well, I guess that means you got beat by a better driver in a slower car.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[David Ferguson]

I think FM2 will be good for the competitiveness of FA. I don't think it will be an overdog, just a competitive alternative -- probably cheaper to run.

At the California Speedway double regional two weeks ago, Marco Andretti driving an FM2 did outqualify 2004 FA National Champion Bob Stallings (Swift 014). Fastest laps were 1:35.116 for Andretti, and 1:35.728 for Stallings. During the race, Marco only completed 5 laps, but his best time was 1:34.842. Stallings dropped out on lap 8, and Kevin Kitzmiller (Swift 014) won with a fast race lap of 1:39.889. The 51 cars in the group (everything with open wheels from FV up plus sports racers) may have contributed to the inability to get a fast lap in with traffic.

But I don't think Bob was having his best weekend, during the damp race on Sunday, he won overall, but my lowly S2 finished second and was a mere 2.7 seconds faster on the fast lap.

[Justin_H]

At VIR before the national last August, one of the new FM cars was being tested. It was about 4 seconds a lap slower than what Jacek ran in his real FA car, and 4 seconds a lap faster than my FSCCA car. Anybody else noticing a trend? ;-)

BTW, for the guy worried about FSCCA smoking FC- I don't see it happening anytime soon. But hey, maybe this new clutch package will get me 2-2.5 seconds a lap, which is about the difference I saw at most nationals I ran where the really fast FC guys showed up.

Justin Huffman

[Bob Wright]

add 10 hp (clutch/flywheel update) to a FSCCA...it helps. Fix the shock package, which I'm sure is coming, and a FC won't touch 'em. The only place a FC car is clearly faster right now is in the corners.

[MarkM]

For those of you who have seen Marco run, we probably shouldn't judge mere mortals by his times.

[Bob Wright]

if you really want to get scared...when He was running karts at Oakland valley, there were one or two kids who could regularly beat him. Wait until they get in a real race car...and they will...hint; one is a girl.

[Matt M.]

At a recent test @ Sebring - the pro M cars were all under 2 minutes.(58's if I recall)......
There was a pro M on pole @ the national and his time was a 2:03 (I think).

I'd say Pro Atlantic will be all but dead after this year...... Budgets in Atlantic have forced too many teams out. The mazda looks better.....is quicker.... Budgets are under $500k... ... TV... The motor will go 5+ weekends ...Its turned into a top notch series....

Word in the street now is that they are the support race for F1 in Montreal.... (because of the min age in IRL they have had to drop those support events)

No doubt the lawsuit let them into FA - but its really a better FA car than anything else out there....

[RS Motorsport]

And if anyone are " risking life and limb " to make a pass the bad driver is them, not the car being passed.

?? What?

A driver who is slower and isn't aware of whats happening behind - in a passing zone, in a corner, in a braking zone is a real problem.

YES, the over taking driver is responsible for executing a safe pass, but the implication here is that Johnny can be out for his first novice race and swing offline for no reason without any reasonable expectation and the seasoned driver who is overtaking is the "bad" driver? Every driver making a pass should be able to make reasonable assumptions about what the driver of the vehicle being overtaken will do. If that driver doesn't even know he's being overtaken it is his fault (imo).

Seems a little harsh. We're all out in probably $50k plus cars and none of us want contact, but saying that the bad driver is the one who gets hooked by a rookie driving in a manner thats unpredictable - well, just doesn't seem right.

[D.T. Benner]

A long time ago when a "Pro" series driver would run a regional race for track time they would pull in about 2 laps from the end so they would not take points away from local drivers who were trying to win a lowly regional championship. That kind of action is now old school for sure. Now on Regional/National race weekends our SF region tries to have the National race BEFORE the Regional race so the Regional drivers are less likly to face that problem. SCCA racing has been a home for racers who race with any budget from the guy with the old club ford with year old tires to the guy with the Pro Atlantic setup. Just having the money to buy the most expensive toy will not always insure success(Often but not Always) So we will see how PFM turns out in SCCA club racing.

[ShepCasey]

I was speaking with Bob Stallings about the FA vs FM cars & he was saying that the FM2 would be faster at Fontana simply because of the large portion of the track that utilized the oval. I believe the FA car will outcorner the FM2 and at a more technical track the FA would beat the FM2 (obviously with equal drivers). Bob also had to change out a motor on Saturday since it blew so his time might have been a tad off due to that. Of course Andretti is pretty darn quick too!

Someone mentiond the FM2 engine @ 5 races...I have heard of 5 seasons in club racing (not to run at the front of the Pro races)

I drive the first generation FM & both kick the stufifng out of me! I just get to watch the fun!

Shepard Casey
FM #79

[GR93]

Allowing the FM2

[anon]

I was speaking with Bob Stallings about the FA vs FM cars & he was saying that the FM2 would be faster at Fontana simply because of the large portion of the track that utilized the oval. I believe the FA car will outcorner the FM2 and at a more technical track the FA would beat the FM2 (obviously with equal drivers). Bob also had to change out a motor on Saturday since it blew so his time might have been a tad off due to that. Of course Andretti is pretty darn quick too!

Someone mentiond the FM2 engine @ 5 races...I have heard of 5 seasons in club racing (not to run at the front of the Pro races)

I drive the first generation FM & both kick the stufifng out of me! I just get to watch the fun!

Shepard Casey
FM #79

Actually, the atlantics favour faster tracks. THe aero package on the mazda is limited and is not as efficient for high speed tracks. The swift chassis produces better downforce on fast tracks because they can trim their wings and use the tunnells for the quick corners....lot's less drag. On the other hand, tight tracks would favour the Mazda, which has a more usable powerband and bottom end grunt.

At the end of the day, I think it will be a good race between the two. Both have advantages and disadvantes. Imagine it like a gts race....two different manufacturers going for the title.

Don't forget, Andretti is being ran by last years championship winning team...and he is a damn good driver...except when he runs into people=) Sorry Shep=) See you at the next race

Keith (the guy that brought you the parts=)

PS. Mikey Mcdowell ran his engine all season minus the first race. So that would be 9 races in the N.American championship(plus testing) and winning the title. They pulled our engine (along with the other podium driver's cars) during tech at the last race and it still dyno'd within the new motor range. Not bad eh?

[reisertracing]

After spending yesterday with some FA drivers and crews, I can tell you that the ideas I heard on the possibility of Pro Mazda's showing up and entered as FA is that the plan is to put $500.00 down and protest the car before it takes to the track. The drivers I spoke to said that they want the SCCA to show where the GCR allows traction control in the FA class and they plan to protest them right off the bat.

One engineer told me that in that case, why not allow the Toyota 2liter motor to compensate and it is very hard to tell the difference in a 1600 and 2000 motor.

Most drivers and crews I have spoken with are not very happy about this and given the problems of the spec SCCA cars running with FA and there holding up the front runners and getting in the way, they are not very happy with the Pro Mazdas messing up the works.

The same thing would be for SCCA to say the Zetec FC should now run FC and we'll give them a 10# weight penalty because the FA class is expanded and the Zetec and Spec Scca cars run closer to FC times then FA.