wristbands

[fv31]

i posted the following on the vee board. but it's something we all need to pay attention to. i did receive a reply from risk management in topeaka, and they said that terry ozment will bring this issue before the club racing board for review and they will let me know how it turns out. if you want to address the issue yourself, terry's email is: TOzment@scca.com.

bill
fv31
----------------------------------------------

the new practice in sediv is to require that the armbands be worn on the arm. i don't like this. below is a copy of the email i just sent to the director of club racing as well as risk management in topeaka.

what do you think?

bill
fv31
--------------------------
to whom it may concern:

i race mostly regionals in the southeast division. a practice has become common which i have great problems with.

in the past few events i've participated in (vir in october, and the recent drivers school at savannah where i was an instructor, wrist bands were given for admittance to the event, as well as hot areas. in the past, they were looped through the hole in the credentials and worn. the practice now is to require that the wrist band be worn around the wrist with no exceptions. i have asked for an alternate but have been refused.

i have problems with this. the wrist bands are either plastic or tyvek (plasticized paper). i strap into a race car. in the event of fire, the last thing i want attached to my body (in direct contact with the skin) is a piece of plastic. i have spent quite a bit of money to protect myself from injury from fire (lots of nomex, halon, etc.) and to do something that would elevate the risk or severity of injury, in my opinion, is stupid.

this scenario has been pointed out to registration (i work registration fairly often myself and my wife is a licensed registrar but mostly just helps out in registration). it has met with no reply and the practice has continued. personally, (and i am not the only one. quite a few drivers do it) before i get in the car, i try to remember to cut the armband off. i realize that this is a violation of the rules of the event, but i have always thought it better to run the risk of violating a stupid rule than to have blackened, melted plastic burned into the skin of my arm in the event of a fire.

something such as this, would not only raise the risk for injury, but will also raise the risk associated with treating an injury such as this.....not to mention the cost associated with this for the club. it would be a nasty injury which does not have to occur. other issues such as liability may come into play, but i am not an attorney and the waiver may cover the club in this area. as said above, i mitigate the chance by cutting it off. but it's something that does not need to happen.

William Hall
national comp. license/member number 240746-01

[dc]

Besides the danger, they are just plain annoying to wear for an entire weekend.

[Jim Garry]

At all Solo II events for the past several years (and at the National Championships for at least the last 15 years), autocross participants have had to wear paper based wristbands. The key to my input here is that in the Solo II program we are allowed to wear these bands anywhere on our body as long as they are at or above the waist, and are on the front side of the body. Many people loop them into their hats, some mount them at belt loops in their pants.

Making a regulation that they must be worn on your wrist with no exceptions was done by someone who is a bureaucrat wannabe. Your simple description of "stupid" is most apt.

Jim

[JHaydon]

According to DuPont, Tyvek will begin to shrink at 270F, melt at 275F, and burn at 750F. Does anybody have any data on the temperatures a driver will encounter during a "typical" fire?

A couple of other points to consider: The elastic in the waistband of your shorts also has the potential to melt. If you wear jewelry of any kind, that's at least as dangerous (i.e., losing hands or fingers). Tyvek fabrics are rated "Class I - Normal Flammability" by the Federal Flammable Fabrics Act for Clothing (16 CFR-1610)" -- which makes me believe that the synthetic "coolmax" T-shirts in cool suit systems (or any other common synthetic fabric other than Nomex et al) would behave the same as Tyvek in a fire.

I personally believe that wristbands are about the best solution I've seen -- which is not to say it's a perfect idea... but how else can registrars ensure that the person holding a credential is the person to whom it was issued? (On the other hand, has credential shuffling been a big problem? ) (On the other other hand, we're talking about a very tiny amount of material and a much slimmer chance of fire with much better protection than what used to be the case. I don't have a problem taking that risk. )

When I suit up, I make sure to slip the Tyvek band over my Nomex underwear. If it melts, it will melt onto the Nomex. It's covered by the suit (3 layer) and the gauntlet of my glove (2 layer) to lessen the chance of melting in the first place. If the flames make it through five layers of Nomex, I doubt that's a fire I'd survive anyway.

[EYERACE]

fv31.......thank you for the courage to use the word "stupid" above. some people think that their purpose in life is to make rules for others cuz it "would be in their best interests"....and you've encountered the results with this wrist band thing of exactly one of those minds. i've gotten accustomed to be castigated for ignoring the fruits of such minds. the whole thing, of course, is insurance driven..........."wouldn't want the club or it's officers to suddenly be held responsibe for something happening to someone that hadn't gotten in the event in the proper way"...........just remember, when you sigh and say "gimme a break" .....they seldom do...cuz that sort of mind wants to help you by making up a rule!!!! perhaps someone could do the same thing with a hand stamp but that's not so visible from a distance so doubt that will happen......but the thought of the band being on the license is ok with me even though it's equally dumb duplication....after all, there's this rule about having one's license on themselves. thanks for the courage to speak out

[fv31]

not all of the wrist bands are tyvek. we have on occasion, been issued these orange things with an unsnappable snap that is totally plastic.

as for the temps....from what i've gathered.....gas fires can reach 1500 degrees. and once again.....i'm not saying i'm an expert, but from what i've gathered...each layer of nomex is worth 5 seconds. 275 ain't fun...but with heat transfer...the chances of something melting does exist.

one of the guys on the vee board says that i'm in the wrong sport. that if i think that armbands are a big risk i shouldn't be here. well...i am. and although not always the fastest, i finish well more times than not. i've won races because someone didn't pay attention to a very small detail on their car.....one that i did.

yeah....it's a little thing. but little things matter.

bill
fv31

[JHaydon]

"wouldn't want the club or it's officers to suddenly be held responsibe for something happening to someone that hadn't gotten in the event in the proper way"

Seen it happen. The guy hit a tree and destroyed his car. What would have happened if he had been seriously injured? At a minimum, it would have been harder (pronounced "more expensive") to get insurance because the club could have been accused of not doing enough to prevent situations like that.


I have to agree that I don't like the plastic ones. They may even have a higher melting point than Tyvek, but I still don't trust them -- in part because if they get caught on something, the Tyvek ones are more likely to let go. The plastic also doesn't breathe as well.

The comment about being in the wrong sport is (IMO) out of line. It's a matter of risks you're willing to take. You're willing to rub wheels with guys you don't know, in a handbuilt projectile carrying 5 gallons of fuel, travelling around 100 mph -- that takes a lot of guts, you know that. You're just not willing to take the risk of having a plastic band melt on your arm. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Personally, I'm willing to trade the risk of damage to the skin on my wrist for the security of knowing that everyone on the track with me is qualified to be there. I'm not saying I'm right -- that's just the risk that I'm comfortable with.

[formulasuper]

One problem I have had with the wrist band situation is one SEDIV track last year, I don't remember which one, wanted to see the band when I got to the grid in my car. I had to take my gloves and wrist restraints off to make it visable. Big hassle with less than 5 mins. to go.

[EYERACE]

Mr. Haydon...is the example of a improper-entry-on-the-premises person you quote that of a race car hitting a tree mean in the paddock or on the track?....if that's the case how'd the person not properly admitted get onto the track? if instead it's an idiot in the paddock hitting his street car into a tree, how does that concern the SCCA?

[JHaydon]

It was a case of a person getting on the track without registering for the event. The race car hit a tree after leaving the track at a high rate of speed.

We learned that he and the registered driver pulled a switcheroo when the med shack crew had a problem getting him to respond to the registered driver's name.

Wristbands wouldn't have made this situation impossible, but it would have been more difficult.

[fv31]

nice. switching up like that. refer to word used above.....(stupid).

in situations like that...i don't know how you can deter someone who is determined to circumvent procedure like that. if they really wanna do it, they'll figure out a way. as for punishment......i hope they tossed both drivers. i wouldn't be above banning them both from competition.

it's a bad situation, granted. and as you said above, i wouldn't wanna be out there with someone that shouldn't be. i don't have an easy answer to this one. maybe summary executions for those caught doing it? lol

the thing about trying to idiotproof things is that they keep making better idiots. lol

bill
fv31

[EYERACE]

sounds like criminal trespass, prosecute to the full extent of the law.......such action in no way should result in others wearing wristband

[dc]

Donno if a writband would have deterred that. They could have easily cut and taped it on the "new" driver to deceive further. Either way, a plastic writband only worn on the arm as final and absolute identification is ridiculous.

Sounds like someone at SCCA needs some hobbies.

[Scott Gesford]

This thread makes me want to burn my Scca licence.

[RS Motorsport]

Personally, I'm willing to trade the risk of damage to the skin on my wrist for the security of knowing that everyone on the track with me is qualified to be there. I'm not saying I'm right -- that's just the risk that I'm comfortable with.

The assumption is that the arm band provides the guarantee that 'everyone on the track is qualified to be there". I don't think armbands provide this. I've faked out the grid workers more than once because I couldn't get to the band under my suit and gloves. Hold the arm up and go - hasn't ever resulted in a black flag.

There are multiple points of failure to consider. First, armbands aren't always checked. Loose bands can be exchanged between drivers, Bands can be 'forged' t look like the approved band.

I would be willing to accept the same risk IF it GUARANTEED that there were no unauthorized participants on track - but it doesn't. So now the issue is the risk of wearing a band.

I don't think having it exterior to the suit and gloves is an option - too loose and encourages band swapping.

I would support a tag that is secured to the fire suit zipper. Sure people could borrow a suit, but if you go to that extreme the exposure to the club is limited. Also easier to verify at pit in and thus more likely to actually be checked.

My .02 cents.

It's worth debating. Fires happen and the club could just as quickly be sued for requiring an armband that resulted in serious injury that could have been avoided.

Jeff

[Todd Butler]

I'm the guy silly enough to volunteer this season to be the Road Race Director for Oregon Region. We're going for an armband solution this year as well. As a driver, the wrist band is annoying, and having to show it on pregrid the first time is annoying, especially when the 5 has been given. I will admit that. (I also wear a wrist band at the Reno Air races for a whole week each year and live thru that as well.) But, here's the situation.... Unfortunately, not every driver or crew member makes it to Registration to sign in. We also need to track who entered, who signed and who actually turned a wheel. If you didn't turn a wheel we'll cheerfully refund your money.

My understanding is if they don't sign in, they are not covered by SCCA insurance and not legal (as in participant insurance coverage for that event) in hot areas including on the track. Spectator insurance in non-hot areas is a different beast. Believe it or not, we've had (before my time thankfully) more than one car make it on the track without the driver signing in at Registration. I have no idea how they got a tech form and got a tech sticker or if they made it thru pregrid to the track without one, but they did.

So we try to have defense in depth to cover our collective (insurance) butts, make sure drivers signed in and signed the release, make sure they are legal for hot areas and make sure a signed/released driver is in a legal car:

1)Sign in at Reg. get wrist band.
2)Get Tech form in packet, get Tech sticker for car thru Tech
3)Pre-grid checks cars for Tech sticker and Driver for armband first time gridding for each group.

Yes it's a pain. The world would be a much better place with a sense of personal responsibility instead of armys of lawyers and insurance guys. Nothing personal against lawyers, I have one in the family :-)

Todd Butler
CF Lola 342
and SRF too.

[Daniel]

I ran at Roebling Road (Savannah), CMP and Road Atlanta last year. At all but one event, the friendly folks in registration slipped the band through the hole in my license like they always have. The one time I was asked to wear it on my wrist, I made sure it was loose enough so as not to be uncomfortable. I could easily slip it up inside the sleeve of my suit. If a fire burns through the gauntlet of my glove, the sleeve of my suit and the sleeve of my nomex undershirt, I don't think I'm gonna notice a .5"X.5mil tyvek wristband melting. Heck, it might offer a tiny bit more protection from the flame. It's just my two cents but this complaining about wristbands because they might melt on you in the event of a fire seems silly.

On the other hand, as Scott mentioned, being asked to show it on the grid was a pain in the rear. I felt more like showing my middle finger than peeling off my glove, pulling two sleeves up and then puting everything back in place. That was more annoying than having my socks checked in impound.

[EYERACE]

we've all heard of the personality types in the world of Psychology...type A [Mr. Road Rage himself or flagarantly aggravating because they're aggravated], type B [Mr. sort-of-laid-back] and their is a type T too [some of us are them, they're the daredevil/thrillseeker type, you know - they ride their motorcycle helmetless to the airport in the rain to go skydiving hlemetless because it doesn't rain above the clouds]........I'm of the opinion that there is a type G personality....insert topic here and then read in a whiney voice > as in they ask and think > > > "is this OK with the Government? Is there a rule about this? I think we need a law about this. Can I get somebody's permission first?" Todd, you already know you can't legislate morality but I guess you're not burned out yet. "here's your sign"

[Greg Mercurio]

Watching the Weather Channel last night reminded me that there's still a lot of winter left in the east. Must be why this topic is getting so much attention. These bands have been in use in the SF Region for about 3 years.

Gentlemen, wearing a wristband is part of the new reality. Get over it and move on. I don't like them eiter, they are pretty funky by Sunday. But they do fit under the long sleeve nomex top, and 3 layers of Sparco's finest, and if there's a burn hazard after that, then I'll be with Mom and Dad long before the band burns.

Pray for an early spring, go polish the wheels, do something constructive.

[Brian]

i've been wearing arm bands at every single event that I've run since I started racing in 1989. If I don't have an arm band on then I'm not at a race! Conversely, if I have an arm band on, I AM at a race therefore I AM in a good (if highly stressed) mood!

I only get annoyed by it when I can't break it off easily when I'm driving home...

Brian

[JHaydon]

Wheew!! Thanks for piping up, guys. I was really starting to think I was the ONLY one in the world who didn't mind wearing these things!

I'm sure a lot of you were around back when we had to pin our paddock passes to our clothes. I was a kid back then, so of course the holder would get caught on something at least once a weekend and tear my clothes, making Mom & Dad REALLY happy. Or the BIG safety pin on it would come undone and poke me, making me really happy.

Aren't you guys glad we've developed something safer than a huge metal spike through your clothes??

[Alan R Guibord]

Ho w about if we all have chips installed under our skin then all they have to do is pass a wand by us at reg,tech, and the false grid.
Must be Winter I'm bored

[JHaydon]

It must be a winter thing... I had the same idea looking out at the snow this morning.

But you know, chips are kind of spendy. How about we all get barcode tattoos?? The scanners are cheap enough... and they could put another one right at the start/finish line and scan us when we go past -- no more expensive transponders, plus that will prevent drivers pulling off at corner 10 for a secret driver change...

[mblanc]

no, microchips aren't expensive.

Just buy the dog id type, quick little poke under the skin, and the grain of rice sized chip stays under the skin nicely. (Alert to Big brother conspiristy types, nows the time to speak up).

They are also good for ID'ing people that spent too long at Sat nites beer party also.

But, then again we'd have to get people training, certifications and licenses for corner workers to properly administer them. And also a enforce their proper location.

I've heard some trendy bars were using them for entrance into their VIP areas.

yup, its winter, and snow sucks.

[dc]

Give me a pin/decal/coin or something small with an installed RFID. Scan me whenever you need to prove I signed the waiver. You could even combine that with my transponder number and give me my lap times while you're scanning my person. You could fine people for speeding in the paddock in their pit vehicles, too. Walking the track after hours? No more. Link it to my CC info, and you can have instant, at-track registrations when I get to the track. Full medical, billing, mailing information with liability protection built-in.</sarcasm>

Until then, I'll continue to cut the damn writband off and stuff it in my pocket.




Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[Bob Wright]

Yes, its still February in the great Northeast...snowed last night, will again tomorrow night...

armbands/wristbands...what happened to the PICTURE id we all have to have now- registration attaches the band to it and all is in order in the universe. Ofcourse it doesn't stop you from giving your crew chief a chance to qualify for you...and we all do that, don't we.

The fire issue is a non event- I've been in one that tested the suit. If the fire gets through to the wristband, you've got much bigger things to worry about.

[EYERACE]

sounds like i'm going to need to have more "here's your sign" signs printed up...except you Mr. Carter. if they attach it to my membership card OK - sometimes i do pin that to a sleeve of a shirt or something, expect me to wear it when the glue inevitably catches on my hairy arm - no way, and wear it on the hand/wrist that was burned.......dream on. like i said above. i've gotten accustomed to being castigated for ignoring rules made up by those that "have their sign"

[fv31]

many pooh pooh this. but there were times that people pooh poohed seatbelts. and helmets. then harnesses. then firesuits. and roll bars. then halon. then (insert another safety item that today we use without a second thought to it's purpose or effectiveness).

the idea of survival, as a species, as a person....is to outhink fate. to say what if? and plan for it....instead of saying "sh it. i don't want that to happen to me again. i better do something to prevent it from happening a second time!" just as i instruct my students, to drive the car ahead of where you're at right now.....we should look at things that make us safer. sometimes you don't get that second chance.

i'm not talking about volvo and sprouts safe. we're race drivers. what we do is inherently dangerous. but we weigh the risks, and do as much as possible to mitigate them. granted, a circular burn around your wrist may not kill you....but it'll be damn unpleasant at the bare minimum.

think ahead. the guys that plan for the "what if's" are the guys who win races, the guys that avoid injury, the guys that survive.

bill
fv31

[formulasuper]

Like someone said, the wrist band proves nothing. You cut it off and tape it back on your wrist or someones wrist with a narrow piece of scotch tape on the inside. I'm sure the grid workers are going to check for a splice joint! Why even bother with the useless things in the first place? Just seems like another bad idea & one more thing for a one man team to worry about.

[Bob Lutz DB-1 #54]

Several years ago, I actually had one melt and give me a 2nd degree burn on the inside of the wrist. Anyone with a DB-1 knows that you can reach your right hand in the back opening without taking the tail off and adjust the idle screw when starting on cold mornings. You have to be careful when you go to back the idle down after the engine is warm because your arm is only a fraction of an inch from the exhaust header. The plastic arm bands melt and stick to the skin if they touch the exhaust header -- an instant burn and a painful lesson!!!! Since then, I've been asking for the ID band to be put around my license, or around my left wrist.

[Todd Butler]

Eyerace,

It's OK if the Government doesn't know, or you don't comply, just as long as you stay ahead of BATF and IRS :-)

However if you don't take reasonable precautions to keep the insurance guys happy, you won't be racing anymore, at least not SCCA. Anybody pay attention to what happened to the Road Rally side of this club lately?

No matter how tight you try to make security, or compliance to regulations to reduce risk (of any kind) there will always be some people who can or will figure out how to thwart it. Either deliberatly or thru sheer stupidity. The trick for this, is to achieve a reasonable compromise between significant inconvenience for too many people and achievng most of what you need to accomplish. Thus wristbands are here. Sorry :-(

Note: Then there are some people so stupid that Jeff Foxworthy could do a whole show on them. Their stupidity gets whole government bureaus created to "save" them, but if we're lucky natural selection takes them out before they breed too many times...we hope :-)

Todd Butler

[Dave Belz]

The wrist band can be removed and exchanged. If ONLY the wristband is used for ID, then you're asking for whatever counterfeiting and circumvention you get.

If the purpose is to ensure that all participants in restricted (hot) areas are properly registered and accounted for... Attach the visual proof of this action (tyvek band) to the participants "signed" photo ID - and then have your control workers CHECK THE IDs! Does the photo look like the participant? Does the participant have the proper license to register for his/her role in the event? Does the signature on the waiver match the one on the ID? No? Claim denied.

Why not enforce the rules you already have? Is is really necessary to dream up new ones? Or are there just too many "Type Gs" around? lol

...it's winter, the guys in the east have all the snow (and don't want it), it's drier out here than it's ever been in 300 years, and I'm so crabby about it that my wife won't let me talk about it any more...

Dave

[Todd Butler]

Most drivers I know don't wear or carry their photo ID with them to PreGrid. And checking a photo ID credential when all the worker can see is eyeballs thru the visor opening is tough. I agree displaying photo ID for everbody else should be sufficient.

I didn't say I liked this solution, but haven't heard a better way to deal with it, other than to ignore it and hope nothing ever goes wrong. Some background might help....We're heading this direction this year because for the first time we are moving Registration inside the track where it's more accessible by everybody and easier to deal with for class adds, drops etc as well as clean up our track access queues. Registration used to be outside the track on the opposite side of the track from the pedestrian bridge, and if you needed to get there, you had to do it during a track crossing (there is no vehicle bridge) and then hope you could get back in time or you had to wait for he next crossing. This greatly pissed people off. And Registration plus rigs queuing up created a mess for people trying to get in during crossing breaks. Once we decided to move Registration infield to clean up access and convenience, the risk questions popped up. Maybe one step forward improving things vs the tradeoff of wristbands. Idunno...Guess well see if t's an even or better or worse trade up here, but as Greg said, SFR has used it for several years.

Each Region is on their own for a while I guess until Topeka decides to "help" us with a mandated solution. Let's hope theirs is no worse when the time comes.

'Nuff said, I'm a reluctant wristband user and advocate under the circumstances.

Todd Butler

[John LaRue]

As I have indicated in an earlier post somewhere else, the insurance is wagering on the viability of the release/indemnity agreement which each participant signs. You sign one of these when you get your membership and then again at each event you sign in at. In the situations I am familiar with if you don't sign there is no coverage for you to recover against (you are uninsured). If you do sign you are agreeing not to sue for injury and, if you do bring suit you have agreed to indemnify SCCA and others for any damages you may recover or cause to them.

The arm bands are essentially used to make certain everyone purchases a pass and to control access to the premises. They are useful for "one off" events, but seem unnecessary in our situation. Remember that most of our events are "non-spectator" so the only people getting in should be affiliated with a member or a member themselves. There is no difference in the form of release that a crew member signs versus a driver. Therefore, assuming that the person has signed a release form there is no difference from an insurance or liability standpoint between a registered driver or a registered crew member.

The IRL and CART do not seem to have any problem with using the picture card credentials. You sign your release at the beginning of the year, get your credential and that is it. Could they be switched, well I am sure they can be but why mess with it? If we have arm bands then we should not need to bother with the credentials. Eliminating those cards should save us some money. Perhaps we should just carry the GCR's we each now receive as our ID's!

I find it interesting that the IRL, CART, NASCAR and most other professional racing organizations have driver's meetings before the event whereas SCCA usually does not. We know what we are doing right? On the other hand we seem to be in serious need of hand holding in most other areas including the regular inspectiion of our safety equipment. hmmm Thank goodness someone knows what is best for me!

[Keith Carter]

I really don't mind the armbands... Whether they're a good method of track ID or not the argument of having one melted to my arm is really minor considering what else you should be worrying about if fire is concerned. I'm surprised more people don't think a multipage thread on this topic seems a little weird?

[Bob Wright]

its winter and people in northern climates are bored. Lets talk about Zetec in FC

[Dave Belz]

And it's unnecessary. It's winter, and the committees are meeting to decide how best to save us from ourselves, or maybe it's how to save themselves from us .

SCCA has provided guidance, it's a photo ID. Maybe if I left my safety gear off and took my ID to the grid I'd be recognizable? Maybe we should be required to suit up at the grid? Maybe we should provide a DNA sample, then the person checking fuel samples could also test the DNA both before and after the session to make sure that the driver who started the session is the same one who finished it? ...you never can tell what might happen during those qualifying stops to check tire temps...

Sorry for the rant. I don't disagree that insurance accounting procedures to ensure that participants are properly registered at an event are necessary, but checking driver identity and credentials on the grid is going way over the top.

Dave

[Dennis McCarthy]

SCCA has an alternative multi-event waiver process already in place. It's up to the regions discretion whether or not to implement the alternative procedure. might be time to contact your RE.

Check out

http://sccaweb.cons.degdarwin.com/_F...verProgram.pdf