Supps published late

[Agitator]

There have been several big races this year where the supps are published less than a month from the race. The Watkins Glen HST is in 3 1/2 weeks and I don't know the test day schedule or weekend schedule. These things are pretty important when you're making a long tow. I've also got some folks that are trying to fly in for all/part of the weekend, and I can give them a general idea based on past events, but it would be nice to know something concrete. I get that most of this stuff is handled by volunteers, so I'm trying to understand what causes the delays. Road Atlanta was similar. Not a rant, just trying to understand.

James

[EYERACE]

It would appear that the 'not-exactly-written-anywhere-therefore-is-not-really-a-rule' about supps is they must be published.....but that does not mean they must be published at the same time registration opens on-line. Remember it's a bunch of unpaid non-currently-racers-for-the-most-part that put the supps together

[problemchild]

I run into this occasionally with the winter events that I plan for months in advance.

If organizers want people to travel long distances to their events, then they need to get atleast the schedules out there.

[John Nesbitt]

Supps still not posted (https://www.motorsportreg.com/events...-racing-330547) with just over 3 weeks till the event starts. This must be a record of some kind.


I have been going back and forth with some of the principals for a week. This appears to be mainly on the Region for not submitting/posting the supps. However, the national office shares the responsibility, as well. While the Region is the entity which actually stages - and takes the business risk for - the event, Topeka has a decisive say in rules, schedule, and officiating. To the point where HST officials are appointed by Topeka and tasked with ensuring consistent events. Topeka/HST leadership could, and should, have lit a fire under the Region a month ago.


This is symptomatic of the hybrid nature of HST events - there is not a single entity ultimately responsible for all events.




A couple of thoughts on the comments above.


1. Strictly speaking, the supps (including schedule) must be posted before entries are accepted. See GCR 4.4 (preamble) and App.B.1.4.1.


2. How can any event organizer ask folks to commit time and a lot of money to an event without knowing things like race groups and schedule?


3. Volunteers. This comes back to the eternal "Are we a club or are we a business?" question. The answer is: Both.


Yes, SCCA members working the event are volunteers (though HST officials have their expenses paid, I believe). I am traveling some distance and paying my gas/tolls/hotel/meals to work the event. As are many others. So, a club, for sure.


At the same time, the Region is on the hook for many tens of thousands of dollars in rental, track staff and equipment, insurance, catering etc. Hundreds of entrants will each spend $800 and up on entry fees, plus all their travel, racing, and ancillary expenses. So this is very much a business, and should be run in a businesslike fashion.

Neglecting to post the supps and schedule gives the impression of being an unserious undertaking.

[Agitator]

I may be wrong, but it now appears that the group #s have changed. The attendee list is all mixed up, with groups out of order, and second entries listed separately from other groups. I'm kind of losing patience with it all. This is not what the "premier" SCCA racing series should look like. Entries appear to be low. I wonder why?

I'm willing to put up with a lot of flexibility, but this feels like a circus. I'm supposed to leave in less than 2.5 weeks, and have no idea who the tire supplier is, paddock parking, fuel, schedule, test day cost/schedule. I guess I can look at last year, but I never want to assume anything will be the same. I guess I have the option of letting my money talk, and cancel my registration. While this is amateur racing, I have a sponsor that expects me to attend this event. I can't even let him know when I'll be on track.

[problemchild]

I may be wrong, but it now appears that the group #s have changed. The attendee list is all mixed up, with groups out of order, and second entries listed separately from other groups. I'm kind of losing patience with it all. This is not what the "premier" SCCA racing series should look like. Entries appear to be low. I wonder why?

I'm willing to put up with a lot of flexibility, but this feels like a circus. I'm supposed to leave in less than 2.5 weeks, and have no idea who the tire supplier is, paddock parking, fuel, schedule, test day cost/schedule. I guess I can look at last year, but I never want to assume anything will be the same. I guess I have the option of letting my money talk, and cancel my registration. While this is amateur racing, I have a sponsor that expects me to attend this event. I can't even let him know when I'll be on track.

Hey James. Sometimes you just need to ignore the BS and decide you are going to have a good time. The track and surrounding country are absolutely amazing in early June and your class should be well-supported. Not unlike Road Atlanta, where race operations is always a joke, but the local people are wonderful and welcoming, I expect you will have a blast!

[Steve Demeter]

Do not place the blame on the region ever time. I can not begin how many times I have been told by people who I believe that they are waiting on a sanction # which they can not get until the chief steward approves the supps and ....Sometimes it just takes longer than planned.

[John Nesbitt]

http://glen-scca.org/RoadRacing/2023...-wSanction.pdf

To the OP's concerns about schedule, the note from the Region includes, "A group has been added and some groups have moved around a bit."

[Agitator]

Yes, saw supps were posted. Not sure why classes are still jumbled and they moved groups around. That is precisely why I wanted to know the schedule. Originally said my group was 3, now it's 6. This means qualifying on Saturday morning and later afternoon race. Would have been nice to know - had someone wanting to come just for Friday, but now there's only one qualifying session.

Greg, you are right. I'll just let it go and chalk it up to experience. I have been wanting to race Watkins Glen a long time, so I'm gonna enjoy it. I think my nerves about still adjusting to the new car and driving a track I've never been to increased my anxiety. Looking forward to it nonetheless.

I, personally, don't hold anyone "responsible". It's just annoying that this is supposed to be the premier series, yet I get more timely info about regional races on a regular basis. There is very little that changes from event to event re: supps, and once you've decided your groups, why would it take so long to make a schedule? Oh, well.

[Lotus7]

Do you expect the first schedule posted (regardless of when) to be cast in stone?
I spend almost as much time crewing in TransAm as in Scca, and can’t count how many “prelim” schedules TonyP publishes in advance of a TAm event….
We even had a Sunday morning race rescheduled to 4pm Sunday on the Saturday of the event! (Needless to say, flight changes got expensive).
It’s a catch-22… drivers always wait to enter to see who’s is or isn’t entered, and what the schedule is, and the organizers are trying to plan based on little to no advance info.
You can’t have it both ways ????

[JoshuaJustice]

Do not place the blame on the region ever time. I can not begin how many times I have been told by people who I believe that they are waiting on a sanction # which they can not get until the chief steward approves the supps and ....Sometimes it just takes longer than planned.

Surely they can post information without a sanction number? Don't call it "the supplemental regulations", give it some non-regulated title like "preliminary travel information" with things like the tire provider contact, fuel info, what the paddock opening time is the day before, etc.

If the final document can't be posted without a sanction number, just put up what you've got, when you've got it - and post the official document when you can.

[Terry Hanushek]

Yes, saw supps were posted. Not sure why classes are still jumbled and they moved groups around. That is precisely why I wanted to know the schedule. Originally said my group was 3, now it's 6. This means qualifying on Saturday morning and later afternoon race. Would have been nice to know - had someone wanting to come just for Friday, but now there's only one qualifying session.

Disclaimer: I have no inside information regarding any confusion and/or late posting. I will note that the 2022 Super Tour events had seven race groups and this year's events have eight race groups (except for VIR which had nine); this might have been the reason for the race group jumbulation. Could there have been coordination issues? Regardless, no excuse for late posting.

[John Nesbitt]

Surely they can post information without a sanction number? Don't call it "the supplemental regulations", give it some non-regulated title like "preliminary travel information" with things like the tire provider contact, fuel info, what the paddock opening time is the day before, etc.

If the final document can't be posted without a sanction number, just put up what you've got, when you've got it - and post the official document when you can.

The organizing Region can absolutely publish supps and schedule before receiving a sanction number (App.B.1.14.). This is very normal.

What is not normal, particularly for a headline event like the HST, is not publishing supps and schedule until three weeks before the event, and after accepting entries for several weeks.

[jvaleo]

I know the track runs the test days at WGI, but anyone see any info about that? I haven’t seen a registration page or schedule yet.

[Agitator]

Do you expect the first schedule posted (regardless of when) to be cast in stone?
I spend almost as much time crewing in TransAm as in Scca, and can’t count how many “prelim” schedules TonyP publishes in advance of a TAm event….
We even had a Sunday morning race rescheduled to 4pm Sunday on the Saturday of the event! (Needless to say, flight changes got expensive).
It’s a catch-22… drivers always wait to enter to see who’s is or isn’t entered, and what the schedule is, and the organizers are trying to plan based on little to no advance info.
You can’t have it both ways ????

Instead of saying "that's the way it is in Trans Am", why aren't you asking WHY it's that way in Trans Am? Perhaps it's because Trans Am often shares the weekend with other sanctioning bodies. The schedule was listed less than 3 weeks before the event, yet the registration has been open for weeks. I had to put in a time off request well before that. I don't think that's much to ask for a series that should basically be "cut and paste" from other/past events. Regardless of car counts, the class groupings really shouldn't change very much, so why would you move the group numbers around? Right now, it's an undersubscribed event. Maybe because when I went to register the groupings were not in numerical order, second entries were listed separately at the bottom of the page, there were no supps, no schedule, no information on the test day, and when directed to their website it looks like it was developed in 1995. Sure, I'm being critical, but if you want to host a big event, it shouldn't feel like an autocross in a mall parking lot.

Before the internet, SCCA used to MAIL supps and schedules for most events a couple of months in advance, and I can't recall many schedule changes at all.