C Mod Tires - Bad News

[Jim Garry]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Here's what Hoosier told me on a phone call today.

Hoosier has eliminated the cantilever 22.5 x 7.2 -13 R20/25 which CM Formula Ford drivers use at the rear. The front we've been using is still available in the R20. Hoosier had to eliminate a wide range of tires across the spectrum of race environments. I was told that the dirt trackers have it worse than those using the circuit racing slicks.

Our rear tire size continues to be available in the R60 compound and it was suggested I run it. When I pointed out the issues with running R20 at front and R60 at the rear, or R60 all around, they responded that CM drivers could use the 22.0 x 8.0 -13 R20. The problem with that tire is it isn't cantilever and the recommended rim width is 7" to 9". Hoosier is going to mount it up on a 5.5" wheel and send me the results which I'll post as soon as they arrive in my email. Might be next week.

I did a brief check of Goodyear, Firestone, Bridgestone and they don't have what we need. Goodyear comes the closest but the compound is pretty hard. And of course Avon is going away. American Racer makes tires for FF but they only make them in their hardest compound.

Even if the 22x8-13 will fit fairly OK, it's not a cantilever and it will cause significant changes in handling. There's a very good chance it will not work on a 5.5" rim without offering a wild ride.

Of course, we could use the Hoosier radial but it's an R60 compound and that's worse than using the R60 bias plys that are available in our sizes for Club Ford. Either of those choices would severely decrease the pleasure of driving our cars in an autocross setting which is almost always on cold tires. Maybe on a sunny 90 degree day they wouldn't be awful. In any other weather it would be like driving on steel.

Even if some of us have good tires left over from last year, one set of tires or even two might not be enough to get through a busy autocross season. Or it would severely reduce the amount of events in order to preserve the tires. And then next year those folks will be at the same place most of us are right now.

One answer would be to change the rules to allow wider wheels which would then open up the options of soft compound Hoosier bias slicks. Talking to Brandon Kraus of Kraus tire he suggested that going to 6" and 8" or (in his opinion better yet) 7" and 9" would be the way to go. This would open up the range of Hoosier soft compound tires available if we switched wheels. However our rules makers might have difficulty with doing this. Obviously it wouldn't happen for this year. But it's something we should talk to them about.

Keeping the front at 5.5" would be OK since we have a tire for that. Then just use a 7" wheel for the rear.

- - - -
EDIT: I see now that the 7" rim is a custom size and would be expensive. I'm now thinking the FC size, 6 & 8 inch rims. And any new rule would include the allowance of continuing with 5.5" rims. And since 8" rear rims would allow an even bigger tire, then make the 22 x 8 a spec requirement along with the current tire we've been using all along.
- - - -

If not, CM as we know it is dead. Driving around on R60 compound is not any fun.

[Lynn]

I was on the Hoosier website last week and noticed the disappearance of the rear tires. I was going to post, but forgot when I got sidetracked. I then took a look at Avon, but not at the others.

I was thinking then that the solutions are going to a spec tire, or going to wider rear wheels.

[Jim Garry]

I was on the Hoosier website last week and noticed the disappearance of the rear tires. I was going to post, but forgot when I got sidetracked. I then took a look at Avon, but not at the others.

I was thinking then that the solutions are going to a spec tire, or going to wider rear wheels.

But a spec tire would greatly diminish the grip and fun factor of driving these great cars. For where I live, driving in the spring might be considered dangerous. The car just would not have any grip in 50 and 60 degree temps. And even in the summer we have 60 degree days.

I'm writing a letter to the SEB at this very moment. Could you do also? I'm laying out what's happened and the problems with the R60 tires. My suggestion is to, as you mentioned, go to a wider rear wheel. I think a 7" wheel would allow the 22x8-13 to work similar to how our current cantilever rear works. But also retain the 5.5 as legal for those who don't want to switch.

Here's the SCCA Mod Facebook discussion: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1248381225251745 It's right now the second conversation down from the top

[hdsporty1988]

Another potential option to try would be to run the FC front tire on the rear, it's 20 x7.5x15

[Gary Godula]

Jim,

The issue with autocrossing on the spec radial has a bit to do with the R60 compound, but more to do with the radial tire dynamic response characteristics. The tires are heavy and numb, lacking any real feedback or feel. The only way you can detect the car understeering or oversteering is when the car is not pointed in the direction you want it to go. There is zero feedback coming thru the steering wheel, seat, or pedals. The tires do not respond to trail braking, preferring to understeer off the turn when turning in under braking. The tires are also prone to brake lock, particularly when not at full operating temperature, due to the combination of higher weight and inertia, very high static camber settings, and the inability for the tire to do more than one thing at a time. It will decelerate, accelerate, or turn, but not more than one thing at the same time. This is the same issue as in club racing, which is why most long time FF racers are migrating to various vintage series (SVRA/RCFFS/Crossflow Cup) where they do not have to run this tire. Most hate the feel and response of the radial tire and trying to get a mid-80's FF to work on it is a major challenge, assuming you can get there at all.

I tested both at Oscoda last year....I was testing my road racing set-up in an attempt to dial in the shocks for dynamics to get the car to respond better on turn-in and corner entry in club racing. It was pretty much a lost cause and the car was fairly unresponsive to most changes. We bolted on a 4 year old set of bias ply R25s (last run at Solo Nationals 2018), and, without changing anything other than the tires, the car was 0.5 sec faster, and much more of a joy to drive, on the second lap. That difference would have been much bigger if we had put the autocross set-up on the car with it.

It isn't so much the compound issue as it is the tire construction and poor response and feedback. I have had nothing but frustration trying to club race on them on my 88 Reynard. Besides destroying any established autocross indexes for the class, the tires are just not fun to drive on, and that would further weaken the class as people leave to find more enjoyable cars to drive.

My experience and opinion. YMMV.

[-pru-]

I see the path forward being a rule change to allow FC/FF2000 wheels (ie 6" and 8"). That opens up additional tire brand/compound options. That said, at this point, I'm just not interested in the time and expense to figure out a new set up...

FYI- Ben's May/22 thread on the subject: FC wheels on CM FF....Go!

[Jim Garry]

EDIT: I see now that the 7" rim is a custom size and would be expensive. I'm now thinking the FC size, 6 & 8 inch rims. And any new rule would include the allowance of continuing with 5.5" rims. And since 8" rear rims would allow an even bigger tire, then make the 22 x 8 a spec requirement along with the current tire we've been using all along.

[CM/FFdriver]

I see the path forward being a rule change to allow FC/FF2000 wheels (ie 6" and 8"). That opens up additional tire brand/compound options. That said, at this point, I'm just not interested in the time and expense to figure out a new set up...

FYI- Ben's May/22 thread on the subject: FC wheels on CM FF....Go!

Hello Chris,

I think your selling yourself short, you've had lots of momentum the last couple years. Your car may not change very much I feel because the wheel tire combo is a little heavier and only being 1.4 inches wider it all maybe a wash.

Ben

[racerjon1]

I wrote this post the other day, meant to post it and got sidetracked with work-work.

I'll skip the intro I had because we know the landscape: C Modified will need to "change" the tires we're all used to running.

Initial “best option” choices available to CM drivers if nothing changes:

1. You can run the Hoosier R60 Cantilevered-style tire. Hoosier is still making this “Club Ford” tire in the FF sizes, but unless it’s a hot day, there will be issues getting the tire up to temp.
   
   
2. You can choose to run the R20 “Formula Continental” tire. I’ve been told that the FC tires “will work on the FF wheel” and it doesn’t change much for the front, the rear will be squeezed on the 5.5” wheel and be a tad bit narrower than the cantilevered tire was. This is probably the “easy button” for similar grip on the equipment we have.
   
   I suspect that if the FC tire ends up being “the thing to have” we see some who favor allowing the FC 8” rear wheel for a better fitting tire. I honestly don’t like this at all. The thought of writing an allowance which creates a need for participants to a purchase they have not had to make doesn’t sit well with me. I just don’t like the concept of “Solo FF” along a path similar to “Solo Vee.” I believe being able to buy a Road Racing FF and not have to add anything is important to the class, and to keep the barriers to entry as low as possible. I’d write a letter a day against this as an option if it came up.
   
   
3. You can run the SCCA Road Racing Spec Hoosier Radial. There is a reason the older cars have pretty much vanished from SCCA FF road racing, and this is a big part of it. The older cars were built with alignment ranges needed for Bias ply, and while they work OK at lower camber numbers, these tires work MUCH better on new cars with a greater range of camber. I fear that this as the spec means newer cars have a massive advantage, and at this point, one of the best things about CM is the range of years which can be competitive. Like the R60 (I’ve heard it’s the same compound) these tires will have a much harder time coming up to temp in an Autocross setting.

Another Option:
Probably a better – but bigger change – option is to think seriously about a different tire rule, spec tire, or tire “range.”

I bring this up because, while there has been a long standing rule that there are not spec tires in Modified Category but: A) We’re in nearly as “spec” a class as you can get in Modified Category and B) In the face of rising costs for fuel, hotels, etc. – the forced evaluation of tire choices puts us in a position to think more broadly about what this class requires and take some steps to help reduce the costs of participation in general – hopefully sustaining and maybe even increasing participation.

1. We could spec the current SCCA Road Racing Hoosier Radial so that we “match” Road Racing again, but like the R60 there is some serious question about getting heat into these tires in Autocross (we push our cars into the sun to build heat in the tires for Road Racing, so especially if it’s a cold day I don’t suggest this.) That, combined with the fact you’re relegating the older cars which make the class more affordable to second tier. I’m personally not a fan.
   
   
2. We could go for the bias ply vintage style tire – Hoosier and Dunlop have an option here and for now at least, so does Yokohama. This helps us match most of the non-SCCA Formula F’s in the country and the rest of the world. Tires will still need to come from racing-specific dealers but we’re doing that now so it’s not much of a difference.
   
   It does reduce speed/grip, but honestly the taller big slip-angle tire is pretty fun to drive on, and when you watch the groups that run on these tires there is still a good mix of old and new cars. Floppy tires reduce the effectiveness of modern FF suspension and keep the balance of performance in check. Plus, your dry tire is your rain tire.
   
   The “bad” news is it might give an advantage to Solo Vee. Though, I also own a Solo Vee and the difference in control with the FV suspension vs FF… I have serious doubts it would disrupt the balance. Best case scenario it closes the current massive gap and might open the field to more entries/available competitive cars.
   
   
3. We can consider the Toyo 888R. It’s a radial, but doesn’t produce the grip that the Hoosier does, and therefore doesn’t seem to need or benefit from the extra camber. Like the vintage style, this is a tire that can work as a wet or dry tire. It also seems to last a LONG time. The Canadian FF series run this tire, and there are people who talk about running the same set all year – in road racing.
   
   Another bonus is – it’s available at Tire Rack. Which means at your front door within 2-3 days. (Though, there are only 3 sets in stock right now, so not sure if they keep low stock, or if there is an availability issue.)
   
   The 888r is probably another tire that has harder time putting heat in it, but it will also have a wider temp range where it does work, therefore won’t be as treacherous in early runs/when it is cold. I’m thinking about ordering a set to put on the car and play with and see how it feels, if I do, I can let folks know how it goes.

So… there it is. The tire we’re running on is no longer available and we have some choices to make, and these choices might give us an opportunity to evaluate what our class looks like, and how it sets us on a path to help sustainability.

In addition, I think when you consider the general market situation and 13” tires in general, there might be a larger and longer-term consideration for how FF inside of the SCCA fits with the rest of the world to help protect the space in general.

CM wasn’t enough to keep the soft compounds. Is Club Ford enough to keep the R60? Is the SCCA enough to keep 13” slicks? The article mentions many classes needing to go to 15” wheels, which would be much rougher than a wider wheel or a compound change if it comes to that – but if CM (or SCCA) is part of that broader market, it’s at least worth considering that there is certainly greater strength in numbers (of tire buyers) whatever the sanctioning body or class sticker on the car is.


And also, because when it comes to these things where I’m speaking my mind as a member and not as an employee of the National Office – these thoughts are mine and don’t represent the feelings/opinions of the SCCA BOD, SEB, etc. This is Jon K the member/FF/CM driver, not Jon K the employee.

[ahowe]

Since I want to be more of an interested participant than a bystander...

Looking forward, I don't want to try a new setup every year. I don't run enough events to have that make any sense at all. Here's what I would see as my priorities, in order of importance:

Reliable availability (year over year as well as stock on hand in warehouses during the season)
Fun to drive (predictably responds to adjustments and inputs, wide sweet spot for slip angle)
Wide sweet spot for temperature (I drive my car on 40 degree days and 100 degree days)
Low life cycle cost (I've been running Hoosiers... obviously this isn't that high on my list, but inflation is real)

Honestly, high grip is not high on my list. Yes, I like neck wrenching g's, but I also find driving my car in the rain a fantastically good time. (Sitting in grid and working course in the rain... not so much.) If the car is predictable, sliding around is fun. Essentially, all of our cars were designed to be driven on narrow, hard tyres. With setup tweaks, we can have fun on narrow, hard tyres.

I have concerns about whether the FC tire option is viable in the long run. Are we just back in the same boat in 3 years? Jeff Speer told me that the FC rear tire is much cheaper for them to build than the FF rear, so we have that going for us. But he also suggested that they need to clear a reasonable volume on any tire to justify its existence - the tires can't just sit in a warehouse waiting for someone to buy them. Who is running on R20 FC tires now? Is it just hillclimb and solo cars? If so, I fear we're just setting ourselves up for this same question to be asked again in a few years.

Similar to Jon, I expect to pick up a set of R888s to test this year. If they work reasonably well on a cold day, I might run this tire regardless of what everyone else chooses. I've reached a point where fun seems more important than competitiveness. (Though I'm sure I would feel differently on grid in Lincoln!)

Andy

[Jim Garry]

It seems doubtful that any of the tires discussed in the two posts above will work in an autocross environment unless it is hot and sunny.

The vintage tires are a hard compound. The Hoosier FF radial tires are R60 compound. Any of the street tires mentioned are not soft enough either since they were designed for street cars (minimum 3000 lbs) and our cars are 1/3 the weight.

Regarding a potential rule change to allow 6 & 8 wheels, would that rule be easier to accept if it also included continuing with 5.5" wheels? This would allow people the option to pursue their own solutions, whether that be experimenting with tires to fit the 5.5" wheel or using FC tires on 6" & 8" wheels.

Thoughts?

[racerjon1]

It seems doubtful that any of the tires discussed in the two posts above will work in an autocross environment unless it is hot and sunny.

The vintage tires are a hard compound. The Hoosier FF radial tires are R60 compound. Any of the street tires mentioned are not soft enough either since they were designed for street cars (minimum 3000 lbs) and our cars are 1/3 the weight.

I think we're just going to have to get on some of these and see what it's like. Another National office employee just got a set of the Toyos and will run them on her Van Diemen next week (I'd co-drive, but am working a Road Race event).

We know Ben had good luck on the R60 in his environment - but that's also concrete and probably doing better at producing heat. (Ben - correct me if I'm wrong on that being concrete).

Bottom line - I think those of us not able to get the cantilevered tires will need to make some exploratory purchases and give some good comprehensive feedback in order to look at the best forward-moving decisions.

Regarding a potential rule change to allow 6 & 8 wheels, would that rule be easier to accept if it also included continuing with 5.5" wheels? This would allow people the option to pursue their own solutions, whether that be experimenting with tires to fit the 5.5" wheel or using FC tires on 6" & 8" wheels.

Thoughts?

Sure, we could allow "up to 8" wheel" but the fact remains that the wider wheel will fit better and be less of a compromise/perform better on the FC tire. So, it will become a defacto "must have." I'm pretty sure we can run a road racing FV in CM as well, but when you're up against a Solo Vee, that's not ideal.

FF was designed to be a low-grip/big slip-angle class. It's why it was 5.5" wheels in the first place. I texted someone last night, "The cantilever was a cheater tire when it came out and should have been hit with the ban hammer as soon as it came out anyway."

We have a chance to put it back where it was started, and I don't think trying to fit the best slick, or creating "Solo FF" is good for long term here.

[Jim Garry]

I'm pretty sure we can run a road racing FV in CM as well, but when you're up against a Solo Vee, that's not ideal.

There are always less competitive cars in any class. I don't think the point is relative to the current issue Jon.

FF was designed to be a low-grip/big slip-angle class. It's why it was 5.5" wheels in the first place.

Using 5.5" tires was certainly to keep the grip low.
The rules were created in the late 1960s. 5.5" wheels were what made sense for fairly spec class at the time.

Doubt they were trying to create a big slip angle class. Just low grip.

We have a chance to put it back where it was started, and I don't think trying to fit the best slick, or creating "Solo FF" is good for long term here.

Putting it back to where it started means what? Mandating narrow tires? That would be going against what you wrote, namely a Solo Formula Ford. The answer isn't to make the cars less fun to drive.

[mboian90]

Just to add an unpopular data point, I have been running the R60 radial in autocross for the past 2 year. I do this mostly for economic reasons. One of the Hoosire reps told me the R60 and A7 compounds are the same and that convinced me to give it a try. I dont think the fun factor has diminished for me but I understand everyone has their own desires and measures of fun.

Actual performance wise I dont know that it has been as big of an impact as is expected. The first run is certainly a bit of a challenge, you have to be committed to still push the car to heat the tires up. If the first run slippy slidly and flattened cones is not something you are comfortable with then you would be at a disadvantage. I live on the gulf coast so summer events are warm however we do run in the winter so 40-50F events are common. Last November I was top PAX in those conditions.

I havent run a national event since late 2020 (ironically on the radial) so take that for what it is worth. I dont feel that my regional level performance has diminished much but some of that might be masked by driver skill improving (I hope ). For reference I ran 7 regional events last year. Not breaking records but the car doesnt sit in the garage either. Not wanting to buy additional tires/wheels is what kept me from Nationals the past 2 years so I dont get excited about those ideas.

I can also provide data if anyone feels that is relevant.

Matt Boian
14 FF/CM

[-pru-]

Hello Chris,

I think your selling yourself short, you've had lots of momentum the last couple years. Your car may not change very much I feel because the wheel tire combo is a little heavier and only being 1.4 inches wider it all maybe a wash.

Ben

Ben,

To clarify, I'm not interested in developing a new set up for 2023; let the rules change process play out and see where we stand going into 2024. That is, we're nearly a quarter into the year and the National Solo season is already in progress. From a rules perspective, I want to know EXACTLY the direction of the class before planning / pursuing any changes...

[griceiv]

one question that comes to my mind is if the R60 cantilever tire is faster than an R20 front tire installed on the rear.

[Jim Garry]

one question that comes to my mind is if the R60 cantilever tire is faster than an R20 front tire installed on the rear.

They will be slower if they are simply mounted up and run as is. To discover the answer to your question will take a LOT of work to change suspension settings, test, change, test, etc.

First, autocross doesn't offer much seat time. So our testing process for something like this could take seasons. The odd test and tune event would help but those are far and few between.

Also keep in mind that the fronts are a lot shorter than the rear tires we've been using. So the rear will have to be raised. My car uses bell cranks and push rods. With the standard rear tires my pushrods are already near their limit of adjustment. So I might need to have new longer pushrods fabricated. Older suspension type might need new longer springs.

Some autocrossers are well aware of this but others aren't and think all you need to do to test the fronts at the rear is to mount then up and drive around.

Refer back to Pru's post a little further back. He rightly says he doesn't want to do any of that until the rules have been modified to deal with Hoosier's sudden and unannounced change which has thrown a huge nasty wrench into the gears of CMod just as the 50th anniversary of the Solo National Championship event approaches.

[racerjon1]

Finally getting a break from the CenDiv spring training/convention, but wanted to come back to this -

The issue with autocrossing on the spec radial has a bit to do with the R60 compound, but more to do with the radial tire dynamic response characteristics. The tires are heavy and numb, lacking any real feedback or feel. The only way you can detect the car understeering or oversteering is when the car is not pointed in the direction you want it to go. There is zero feedback coming thru the steering wheel, seat, or pedals. The tires do not respond to trail braking, preferring to understeer off the turn when turning in under braking. The tires are also prone to brake lock, particularly when not at full operating temperature, due to the combination of higher weight and inertia, very high static camber settings, and the inability for the tire to do more than one thing at a time. It will decelerate, accelerate, or turn, but not more than one thing at the same time. This is the same issue as in club racing, which is why most long time FF racers are migrating to various vintage series (SVRA/RCFFS/Crossflow Cup) where they do not have to run this tire. Most hate the feel and response of the radial tire and trying to get a mid-80's FF to work on it is a major challenge, assuming you can get there at all.

I just want to take a moment to state how much I fully agree with this entire assessment and how it underscores how important it is for our next steps to be well founded. I think that as we work towards solutions to the issue, it will be really easy to drift towards being adversarial instead of having constructive debate - and this assessment really outlines what I believe we all want to see:

My feeling says we need/want a tire that is responsive, that works in a variety of conditions and with a variety of driving techniques so that we don't lose the class and range of competitive cars the way the radial has affected Road Racing.

So while we look for what's right for us, we're really on the same team to finding out the best solution. If we all scream out opinions at the SEB without some comprehensive cooperative feedback, it's likely the wrong decision gets made.

We're not going to get a spec or absolute replacement tire this year. I don't even think the SEB is allowed to dictate a tire because of the enforced "rules making season" and such. So - no spec tire or rim-width allowance can be made this year. With that in mind, taking the time to chose our path is better than trying to jump to something that isn't right.

We're in a unique position of being able to be an informal "CMAC" and nail this if we work together to collect the right data.

That data is going to mean some really broad and new looks at what might work, leaning into all of our experience, and being willing to really give things a try for the benefit of the class.

[racerjon1]

It seems doubtful that any of the tires discussed in the two posts above will work in an autocross environment unless it is hot and sunny.

Any of the street tires mentioned are not soft enough either since they were designed for street cars (minimum 3000 lbs) and our cars are 1/3 the weight.

Thoughts?

Leaning into my previous post where I said "constructive vs adversarial" when it comes to our discussion, I'm going to start this post with the phrase, "As I understand it...."

1)A 185/205-width 13" is a street tire size for 1,900-2,300 lb Civics and similar sub compact cars - even then, in autocross you'd never see that size on any production car outside of a Lotus/Caterham. I certainly never ran anything that narrow on my CRX - it would be too narrow and build up heat too fast, which leads me to...


2) The severe weakness of all of the street tires - and tires in general - in autocross is how a tire builds and holds heat in the autocross environment.

• Autocross tends to fast-heat the compound/surface without the core getting to temp.
• Along with where on the tire the heat gets built, because of the lack of straights, whatever heat gets built doesn't have a chance to cool like it would on a road course or on the street.
• This makes for some greasy tires on a moderately warm day. As a result, autocrossers spend a lot of time spraying their tires with water to cool down the surface.
  
  I've seen at least one National Championship winner use three sets of tires in 3 autocross runs on a 2,700-lb car because they didn't have the time to cool the tires down enough in the 20-25 minutes between runs, and there is a reason I own 3-4 fertilizer sprayers but don't care what my lawn looks like!

3) We should consider the temperature range of a street tire (and probably vintage tire) vs the heat range of a racing purposes only tire (R60, A7, etc.) As you get to more specialized tires, the heat range it works in narrows. Street tires (even something like the 888R) have a wider range, so even if a tire is built with a heavier car in mind - or a greater range of vehicle weight, that wider range will make it possible for our cars to get into that zone, even if we don't weigh as much as the other cars. It might even aid in the life of the tire, and will certainly expand the range of conditions the tire will work in. In fact - I believe the Road Race Radial does survive more heat cycles is that the Hoosier Spec Radial is never pushed past it's heat range. A CM FF by working with a tire that isn't at the higher end of it's heat range will likely reduce tire usage in the long run.


All that to say...

because of this unique environment and the less-than-ideal behavior of tires in it, it's really hard to predict the exact response we're going to see. It's why I think we need to do some collective testing and think about next steps as it relates to what's available, what might stay available, and how it fits for the class in general (not just autocross).

I'd also love if any of the lurkers (Peter C, maybe you're in here!?) might be able to walk us through some of the technical explanations to go with my rudimentary explanations from the manufacturer tire testing I have been involved with.

And, with that in mind, a fellow region member bought some 888Rs (they got mounted today) I'll probably go buy a set of the vintage tires to try and give feedback on, and hopefully I can swap with my fellow region member so we can each give the other tire a try. It's not like I'm gonna get a set of R20/R25s, so I'll do my part to contribute to the next steps.

What do the stick-and-ball guys call it? Oh yea.. a "rebuilding year."
.

[Jim Garry]

Leaning into my previous post where I said "constructive vs adversarial" when it comes to our discussion, I'm going to start this post with the phrase, "As I understand it...."

I'm not clear on this but if what I wrote felt adversarial then I very much apologize Jon.

Regarding your thoughts on the street tires, anything I say would be coming from a non-engineering point of view. Essentially a guess. So I'm happy you and a friend are going to try out some other tires.

One thing I am picking up from your thoughts is that essentially this season is a write off, a "rebuilding year". I understand that and it might be true but for now a number of CM folks are attempting to get something done for this year so that CM can have a good class for the 50th anniversary Nationals. I think it's 50/50 at the moment. But over on the SCCA Mod FaceBook page there are some Modified Advisory Committee members who have stated they intend to try to help us rescue 2023.

[racerjon1]

I'm not clear on this but if what I wrote felt adversarial then I very much apologize Jon.

Not at all! I just... without the tone we would have in a parking lot/paddock I wanted to make sure that none of our counter points would be taken that way. (mine, your's anyone's) I think we're all going to be passionate about "rescuing" us and wanted to make sure none of us got taken out of context. :-)

Regarding your thoughts on the street tires, anything I say would be coming from a non-engineering point of view. Essentially a guess. So I'm happy you and a friend are going to try out some other tires.

Me too, I'm excited about just trying some stuff, and this doesn't just fit autocrossing - I was driver coach for the Hoosier Super Tour at Road Atlanta, and in discussing it with another FF driver he said, "man if SCCA went to one of the other tires I'd run 2-3 more weekends a year" and he's in a later model car even. So - I think this is a club-wide discussion really as the market changes around us.

One thing I am picking up from your thoughts is that essentially this season is a write off, a "rebuilding year". I understand that and it might be true but for now a number of CM folks are attempting to get something done for this year so that CM can have a good class for the 50th anniversary Nationals. I think it's 50/50 at the moment. But over on the SCCA Mod FaceBook page there are some Modified Advisory Committee members who have stated they intend to try to help us rescue 2023.

I'd be interested to see what the options are from the SEB/MAC - I think an exception would have to be made for a change. I'd also venture to guess that a change once the season has "started" might disrupt folks who do have a stash of tires/got the last sets. It's a tricky thing to disrupt in the middle of a season.. I sure wish we'd known last August.

[ahowe]

I'd be interested to see what the options are from the SEB/MAC - I think an exception would have to be made for a change. I'd also venture to guess that a change once the season has "started" might disrupt folks who do have a stash of tires/got the last sets. It's a tricky thing to disrupt in the middle of a season.. I sure wish we'd known last August.

Full disclosure: I have enough tires to get through 2023.

The timing problem is real.

I would entertain proposals from the SEB / MAC to make Solo Nationals fun for all. If the SEB / MAC want to make a proposal, I would need to see it in the next few weeks to acquire tires and schedule a weekend to test. I would probably only get one weekend to try something - due to personal priorities and conflicts.

I don't know everyone's 2023 situation, but having fun is more important than winning for me. 2023 is an odd year for me that emphasizes this even more than most years. I have limited ability to chase setup this year as I intend to put my daughter in a known quantity car at every event that fits her social schedule (before she moves away to college). If that combined with a force majeure rule change puts me behind at Solo Nationals, so be it.

Andy

[CM/FFdriver]

I'd be interested to see what the options are from the SEB/MAC - I think an exception would have to be made for a change. I'd also venture to guess that a change once the season has "started" might disrupt folks who do have a stash of tires/got the last sets. It's a tricky thing to disrupt in the middle of a season.. I sure wish we'd known last August.

Hello Jon,

I understand what you're saying about a rebuilding year and yes wish they would have said something in October or when the last tire was sold, or when the email was sent would have been better.

That said I believe anything other than the tire width front and rear with a kind of slip angle we have come to love is going to be a hard sell. I've talked to a lot of CM owner/drivers and the thing you hear a lot of is the car is fun to drive.
I hear you what your saying and going to test tires is great but why the R888 or the treaded Hooiser Vintage tires? Why wouldn't you if you have the time to test the R60 tires because it is this year's tire. Next is What is the site your testing on because not all of us have optimum sites or based where they are geographically, so you may have someone with mostly 85+ days on concrete and other with some on 70+ days on sandy black top or even great black top surface but still relatively cold, could/would have a hard time setting up for Lincoln's surface, That's why the R25 tires we had worked for just about everyone, every time, everywhere.

Ben

[Craig71188]

As a past C-Mod competitor (locally) I would simply add that if "new wheels" in other sizes were required to run the then current "competitive tire", I will not be participating. I realize for some, this is their passion, single class they want to run and will spend whatever to enjoy it. In the bigger picture, there are far more that run in the class on occasion for fun and the need for another set (or multiple sets) of wheels to be competitive would be a major negative.

Yes, a move to another tire (that would mount on the current 5.5") would be a major change, and I would say most likely will cause the class to be "slower" overall (at least initally - maybe indefinitely). The index would need to change (for those that follow that), but a tire that allows FF's from different eras to all be (reasonably) competitive within the scope of their suspension design limitations (as built) would seem to be key.

At this early juncture, having read through the thread, it would seem to me a vintage treaded race tire looks to be a good option. I like the idea of it functioning as a "rain" tire as well. There are "street" tires that would also work, but I do think an actual race tire for these cars is a better choice. Certainly there are a lot of downsides as well, but this will be the case with any change/compromise.

[Jim Garry]

As a past C-Mod competitor (locally) I would simply add that if "new wheels" in other sizes were required to run the then current "competitive tire", I will not be participating.

To be very clear here .... that will NEVER happen. No one will be forced to run anything new. IF the SEB agrees to a larger rear wheel, the allowance would also include continuing to run the 5.5" wheels!

[Jim Garry]

Also, much of this discussion has been revolving around a permanent fix for the future. This is critical, of course. But we're also trying to fix the issue for THIS year. This year, the 50th anniversary of the Solo Nationals, nor any year's Nationals, should not be reduced to a write off as far as competition goes.

I have been to Lincoln something like 30 times (a few times I didn't compete due to injury or having to leave early for family emergencies). The reasons I go to Lincoln are twofold:

I go to have fun and see people I rarely get to see.

But honestly, the second reason is a bigger part of going to Lincoln for me. It is the competition. I go to drive as well as I can and see where things pan out. Testing myself is fun. And finally, it's to drive on the best and biggest courses of the year in a car that could possibly put me on the podium.

Now, this next bit is sacrilege, I know ... but if every year we had a big gathering of 1100 people in Lincoln in September and, oh, if you want run on the Test and Tune course then head on over and have fun ... well maybe I'd go once every ten years.

If the answer for this year is "just have fun and don't worry about whatever tire you have to run", then I'd participate in another class with as competitive a car as I can find.

**** For me, it's urgent that we come to some agreement on what we're going to do for THIS season. Yes, for those who have plenty of tires for this year it is unfair to say you can't run those tires. Even more unfair is for people to have to attend in tires that have 35 events on them. In my case, a good friend offered to sell me his never-mounted CM tires which were purchased in 2021. I'd do it. But I'd have to spend the entire year on exceptionally worn out tires in order to keep the "fresh" tires for Nats. This means I wouldn't get to test my newly revalved shocks in a representative way. I wouldn't get to experience the car as it will be with good tires on it. So that's not fair either.

My proposal to the MAC/SEB was sent last night. It basically asks for an allowance for this year to run rear 13" wheels between 5.5" up to 8" in width.

Everyone could run their 5.5" wheels or they could run any other width, up to 8". That would allow the 22 x 8 tires to be used. These are about 3/4" in width wider than the 22 x 7.2 tires we've always been running. Maybe there's a performance gain, maybe not. If there is, it's not much. And it's certainly less of a performance issue than forcing people to run burned out tires all year long or at Nationals. Or making them run street tires or on R20 fronts.

Please offer feedback on this issue.

[Craig71188]

To be very clear here .... that will NEVER happen. No one will be forced to run anything new. IF the SEB agrees to a larger rear wheel, the allowance would also include continuing to run the 5.5" wheels!

Jim,
It's early and I wasn't as clear as I should be. The "I will not be participating" was referring to:
1) Buying new wheels
2) Competing beyond occasional local events if the 5.5" combination is no longer near competitive

To me the focus is to keep any change needed as a minimal barrier to enter and have a chance at being competitve. This includes:
1) Not needing to buy more wheels
2) Not needing to re-engineer suspension geometry - I realize normal alignment/tuning - but not building new control arms / moving pickups to accomodate vastly new settings

Finding a tire that fits the 5.5" rim, that by all that we currently seem to be seeing, that likely will be slower and drive differently is the best course to not create another "specialized" car (Solo FF) that likely would keep cars home rather than encourage growth.

Just my $ .02 - and worth just what you paid for it! ;>)

[Jim Garry]

Craig,

If larger rear wheels were allowed, no one would have to buy them. They could continue to use the 5.5" wheels. And they would still be competitive.

[Jim Garry]

Finding a tire that fits the 5.5" rim, that by all that we currently seem to be seeing, that likely will be slower and drive differently is the best course to not create another "specialized" car (Solo FF) that likely would keep cars home rather than encourage growth.
>)

If a different tire was found for this year, would the people with fresh tires be required to use them?

[Craig71188]

If a different tire was found for this year, would the people with fresh tires be required to use them?

First, I have no dog in this fight - I am running TT in another car this year. My interest is purely for the future - I don't want to see a change now that would have a detrimental impact down the road.

My first thought is no, based on a "rules season" argument. My second thought is it would be better not to have nationals be a battle between the "haves" and the "haves not". In the end, I am amibivilant as I will not be affected this year.

[Jim Garry]

I just got off the phone with Jeff Speer (Hoosier), who I've known for 30 years. We had an amiable conversation. He said the elimination of our tire was based on the low volume of sales, as we all know. They seriously need to make the factory more efficient.

He stressed that he thinks the tire item number 43285 is a good way to go. This is the 22 x 8 - 13 with a recommended tire width of 7" to 9". It won't work well on a 5.5" rim and has been tried at least once by an autocrosser on the west coast some years ago. He reported it was an unsatisfactory experience.

He thought if we can get an increased wheel size, this is a solid way to go. It doesn't have to be an 8" wheel. 7" would work fine. On this point, I've heard that 7" might be an odd size and could cost more than an 8" wheel. I don't know. I've done no research on this.

Nevertheless, a wider rear wheel is my preferred solution.

Jeff also suggested the cantilever R60 tire as an option but agreed that it will be a problem in cooler climates. I pointed out that if you are in a warm part of the country you'll get a lot of practice throughout the year on that tire in pretty good to excellent temperatures. But if you are in a cooler part of the country then you won't get a reasonable feel for the tire until July and August, which takes us back to unfairness.

So despite everyone having the same tire at Lincoln, some competitors will have had 6 or 7 months of time on the tires while others will have effectively had 2 months in which to test and acclimate to it.

Thoughts?

[pleavens]

As FC and FF share so much, it seems to me that the "easy(ish)" button is going to the FC wheels and tires.

Positives
1. Keeps performance the same, or close to current with no real changes in operation requirements.
2. Increases production and sales for tire manufacturers which will help them justify continuation of the line.
3. There is a huge body of knowledge on setup with this tire/wheel combo within the FC race community.
4. I would think there are a large number of used wheels available and existing wheels could probably be sold to FF club and vintage racers.
5. The "cool" factor of wide wheels and tires could IMO help bring in a younger crowd to the class.
6. Keeps the class going while the sanctioning body is focusing on other areas.

Negatives
1. Difficulty of getting a consensus within the community
2. SCCA approval process IF a consensus could be reached
3. Those who autocross AND road race their FF would need different wheels/tires for each discipline.
4. Additional expense
5. Individual issues with car reaction due to wheelbase, weak components etc. will of course happen to some extent.

Regardless, I hope the CMOD community can figure it out. This tire supply situation is a real problem for those of us in BM, but at least we have some more options due to our "modern" wheel sizes.

Phil

[Ocho]

2. SCCA approval process IF a consensus could be reached

I'm not too worried about this part - We (the MAC) are going to do our best to push though what You (the CM community) think is best. We have a call scheduled for tomorrow night and we'll be talking over the situation. I've also brought it up to the SEB to make sure they know what's going on.

Brad
(188 FM)

[Jim Garry]

I'm not too worried about this part - We (the MAC) are going to do our best to push though what You (the CM community) think is best. We have a call scheduled for tomorrow night and we'll be talking over the situation. I've also brought it up to the SEB to make sure they know what's going on.

Brad
(188 FM)

That's tremendous. Thank you.

However, based on what I've seen here and on FB, the CM community isn't in agreement on what to do for this year. I doubt there will be a consensus based on member input. Rules makers will have to come to their best decision and there will be the inevitable responses by members that they won't participate, maybe I will be one of them :-)

I hope everyone keeps in mind that the decision for THIS YEAR'S issue won't be set in concrete going into the future until a separate conversation occurs for 2024 and beyond which can be conducted without the ticking clock over everyone's head that we have now.

Regarding a potential wheel rule change, if the rule is changed to 5.5 to 8 or whatever, it will continue to allow the 5.5" wheels to be used.

As for the issue of maintaining the history/integrity of FF, my personal thoughts are that (1) there have been many changes over the years, like the Honda engine. And currently road racers in FF use a radial while autocrossers stukk use the bias ply. The class has not been pure in decades; (2) nothing will happen that involves big changes to the car itself; 3) the ship is going down and making zero changes will sink it.

[Craig Henry]

I'm depressed. I've been reading and thinking about all the posts / ideas since last Friday. I do apricate all the input and efforts by all.

My comments:

I'm having a very hard time with allowing 6" and 8" wheel widths to solve the problem. I believe this is a very big change. The performance advantage would require the wheel/tire change to be competitive. Having purchased a couple of new FF wheel sets (sitting in the basement) I know purchasing several sets of new FC wheels (even a sorry sets of well used road race cast offs) is not inexpensive.

Has anyone looked into the availability of 6" and 8" wheels? I know manufacturing schedules and minimum build numbers can cause lead times of many months for new wheels (I waited 4 plus months pre-pandemic.) If your FF has an odd bolt pattern, hub diameter and/or thickness, new "standard" wheels will likely not be an option (only very expensive new custom wheels.) New FC tires might be available to everyone this year, but the needed wider rims to make them useful might not be.

Some stupid questions:

OK, Hoosier made a financial decision to stop production of current CM FF bias autocross tires. Are they open to some possible options?

• Making small pre-ordered batches of the now discontinued rears (likely a minimum count needed) at a premium price? Say, twice yearly? Final 2023 batch to temporarily solve this year's issue?
• Making small batches of the R60 spec radials with an autocross compound (not sure if it can be done using the same mold) at a premium price?

Has anyone tried running the FC front tires all around? I do understand this will decrease rear grip, change gearing, and suspension settings (some cars more than others.)


Unfortunately, I don't have any solution to the problem. I hope it doesn't come to this but, if no viable alternate autocross FF tire is made available wider wheel may be the only option. Again, I hope a different solution can be found that all can be comfortable with.

I'm still buried trying to get my car together for some events this year. Even if I do, I will need tires... depressing!

Thanks again for the efforts by all to solve this problem,

Craig Henry

[bucko3the7man]

I've taken a bunch of the thoughts in here and coalesced them into a letter, number 34087 just submitted. Text below:

I write this letter as a 10 year SCCA member who is currently rebuilding an 83 Reynard FF for the CM class.

As I’m sure you’re aware, Hoosier has discontinued the cantilever 22.5 x 7.2 -13 R20/25 which CM Formula Ford drivers use at the rear. This creates a problem for the class given the existing rules, and I would like to propose allowing the CM competitors to purchase the Formula Continental wheels instead of using the 5.5” wide that they are currently limited to. Formula Contintental uses 6” wide in the front, and 8” wide in the rear. There is an abundance of them available, and would not impose a significant financial hardship on a class that is already the most modified class in autocross. Competitors would be able to sell off their 5.5” wide wheels to road racers competing in formula ford to help offset the cost as well.

Some have proposed just buying the R60 compound instead of the R20/R25. This is not an ideal solution for those in colder climates, as they will not get as much practice time in hotter conditions as those who live in hotter climates. We are talking 2 months of practice vs 7 or 8 months in conditions ideal for the R60 tire compound.

As FC and FF share so much, it seems to me that the "easy(ish)" button is the option of going to the FC wheels and tires.


Positives
1. Keeps performance the same, or close to current with no real changes in operation requirements.
2. Increases production and sales for tire manufacturers which will help them justify continuation of the line.
3. There is a huge body of knowledge on setup with this tire/wheel combo within the FC race community.
4. I would think there are a large number of used wheels available and existing wheels could probably be sold to FF club and vintage racers.
5. The "cool" factor of wide wheels and tires could IMO help bring in a younger crowd to the class.
6. Keeps the class going while the sanctioning body is focusing on other areas.

Negatives
1. Difficulty of getting a consensus within the community
2. SCCA approval process IF a consensus could be reached
3. Those who autocross AND road race their FF would need different wheels/tires for each discipline. This is a small one in my opinion since the tire compounds and gearing are different already, so it would make sense that competitors just do some changes to be able to go between the two.
4. Additional expense
5. Individual issues with car reaction due to wheelbase, weak components etc. will of course happen to some extent.

In summation, I propose allowing CM competitors to purchase and run wheels up to 6” wide in the front, and up to 8” wide in the rear.

While the current issue is only with the rear tires, it is much easier for people to buy and sell full sets of wheels. This is why I’m advocating for the 8” rear as well as the 6” front wheel. Allowing “up to” 6 in the front and “up to” 8 in the rear still allows competitors to use the 5.5” wheels they have all around should they so choose. If further restriction is required, the MAC could also require a specific tire size to be paired with the wheel in the rear (such as 22x8) so that competitors don’t buy much larger rear tires and change the balance of performance drastically.

This will absolve the problem of tire availability for this year, and solve it for future years as long as formula continental continues.

[Jim Garry]

Another potential option to try would be to run the FC front tire on the rear, it's 20 x7.5x15

I asked Sreve Lathrop about this. He said cornering is compromised. Thus the few people with the correct rears will have a strong advantage.

[Jim Garry]

OK, Hoosier made a financial decision to stop production of current CM FF bias autocross tires. Are they open to some possible options?

• Making small pre-ordered batches of the now discontinued rears (likely a minimum count needed) at a premium price? Say, twice yearly? Final 2023 batch to temporarily solve this year's issue?
• Making small batches of the R60 spec radials with an autocross compound (not sure if it can be done using the same mold) at a premium price?

Has anyone tried running the FC front tires all around? I do understand this will decrease rear grip, change gearing, and suspension settings (some cars more than others.)

Hi Craig. Hope to see you at Seneca later in the year.

My post from today at noon addressed the first point I copied from your post. I had a discussion with Jeff Speer. His answer was there is no way. They need to run an efficient factory and making batches of 30 or 150 tires isn't going to help them run a profit making business.

For your second question about FC front tires, I communicated with Steve Lathrop about this and he said it results in a faster car in a straight line but cornering is "compromised".

If we were ALL on that tire then it's OK, we'd all be slow. But there are a sizable number of people with multiple new sets of Hoosiers. There'd be no way to get close to a well driven car with regular sized Hoosiers.

[Craig Henry]

Jim, appreciate the reply.

Question: Wouldn't allowing 6" and 8" wheels this year, with the appropriate FC tires, be seen as an advantage to those who are set for the remaining year using the current configuration? I think we all would be shocked if it didn't help some. I find it ironic that decades ago, the day after I purchased the Royale S2 for CM, Fastrack arrived with a proposal to kick S2's out of CM primarily because of the following advantages: (1) Better HP to weight ratio and (2) 6" and 8" wheels versus 5.5" wheels. Now all you FF guys are telling me size (wheel) doesn't matter? LOL

No win solution for this year. My gut tells me getting wider wheels ASAP could be an issue and expensive for some.

Craig

[Jim Garry]

But the car stayed in the class. The argument is null.