CM : Add GCR-compliant FC w GCR Spec Hoosier R60A Tires

[-pru-]

To include the GCR spec tire FC to CM, letter #33424 has been submitted to the Solo Events Board (SEB).

Letter ID Number: #33424
Title: CM : Add GCR-compliant FC w GCR Spec Hoosier R60A Tires
Class: CM
Request:
Allow GCR-compliant FC utilizing GCR Spec Hoosier R60A tire to run CM. To wit, recommend editing the SCCA National Solo Rules Appendix A MODIFIED CLASS C (CM) rules as outline below.

~ Relocate FV and FST from section B to section A as follows:
“A. Modified Class C (CM) allows the Solo® Vee and the following SCCA® Club Racing GCR-compliant cars: Formula F (FF), Spec Racer Ford (SRF), Formula Vee (FV), and Formula First (FST).
Exceptions to the Club Racing GCR for these cars:
1. Spec tire requirements do not apply.
2. Formula F (FF) weight with driver (min.):
Ford Cortina engine (lbs.) .................................................. .....1050
Ford Kent and Honda Fit engines (lbs.) ................................ 1100”

~ Add FC to section B as follows:
“B. SCCA® Club Racing GCR-compliant Formula Continental (FC) utilizing GCR Spec Hoosier R60A compound tires.”

Thank you for your consideration.

Chris Pruett
50 CM
1985 Swift DB1

[lowside67]

What's the rationale here? Add formula continentals which are faster cars, but handicap them with slower tires, and hope that is approximately the right amount to equalize them?

-Mark

[TedV]

Weren't Sports 2000 cars in CM at some point? Same drive as FC but with sports racer bodies and no wings n things? I really don't feel like digging out my old rule books.

With silly season in full swing, I need to make a post about FMod with cars powered by ZX12R motors .. Dont you folks up North realise there is still racin happening down south this time of year??? Ain't got time for all this. Roflmao

[Gary Godula]

Pru, What are you thinking???

I was testing the dreaded FF Spec Radial R60 tires on my Reynard in Oscoda earlier this year and they were not completely out of the box. Horrible to drive on because they are radials, yes, but R60 compound was only 0.5 second off the times set with 4 year old R25 bias ply tires that we used for comparison. If they were bias ply R60 tires instead of the radial tires, the gap would have been much closer. That is on the same car, same day, same course, same drivers. Add in the power advantage of an FC car and this combination would become the dominant force in CM.

I have won Divisional and National events before at Grissom on used club racing R35 bias plys tires. You were probably there at the time. The R60 tire is not that big of a jump if you can get heat into them (hot sunny day on concrete).

There is a place for FC cars, it is BMod. Quit attempting to find another place for those cars. I do not believe that wings should be welcome into CMod.

Your speculation and bench racing, based on zero knowledge and testing, should not lead to letters to the SEB.

100% cannot and will not support.

[-pru-]

What's the rationale here? Add formula continentals which are faster cars, but handicap them with slower tires, and hope that is approximately the right amount to equalize them?

-Mark

Indeed.

Additionally, provide a place for FC which may eventually be converted to FF/CM. Many (National Championship) CM FF are converted FC; Godula (88 Reynard), Ott, and Clements (both 95/96 Van Diemen) come to mind. Ott noted that he ran his FC Van Diemen for a year in BM before converting over to FF/CM. Did Phil convert the RF-98 you drove from FC to FF? I can't recall...

Finally, numerous folks interested in the class have noted the lack of available FF/CM cars. That is, they have considered joining the class but cannot seem to find suitable cars. Adding the FC (on the Spec R60) to the class opens it up to more cars (which at this point in time is sorely needed).

[Gary Godula]

Chris,

FC is legal for BMod. It has no place in CMod, nor should it. Stop trying to solve a non-existent problem.

The Reynard was converted from Formula Continental to Formula Ford to complete in the Esso Pro Series in Canada in 1994. It was not converted for the purpose of autocrossing. We are currently trying to develop the car for club racing on the spec radial tire.

Think about how fast the Reynard would be with another 30 HP and an improved tire footprint due to the wider wheels. Do you really think that is a good idea for the class. As we have proven in testing earlier this year, the R60 tires would not slow it down enough to make up for the difference in power and tire footprint.

I really wish you would think first and start an open on-line discussion before you write a letter to the SEB so that you do not waste both ours and the SEBs time with baseless suggestions that lack data, logic and merit.

[-pru-]

Your speculation and bench racing, based on zero knowledge and testing, should not lead to letters to the SEB.

My role as moderator is restraining my response, but, in short, get bent; any SCCA member can submit a proposal to the SEB. It's on them to decide its merit. I'm done discussing this with you...

Also, I have experience with these cars as I owned a 88 Swift SE3 FC which I ran in BM from 2000 to 2002...

[Gary Godula]

Chris,

Letters to the SEB suggesting dramatic rules changes should not initiate the conversation within the class and the solo community, they should be a result of the discussion. Anyone can suggest anything, but without facts, data, and a purpose for the proposed change that fills a needs, there is nothing to really go on and no meaningful discussion can take place. It is frivolous.

I would suggest a different approach for FC cars, one similar to Solo Vee. Why not allow several simple engine mods and a larger wheel/tire package to allow the FC cars to be more competitive in BMod? It has been demonstrated that the biggest restriction to engine power on the Pinto engine is the size of the Weber 32/36 DGV carburetor. There are bolt on manifolds that allow the use of dual side draft Weber carbs for that engine, similar to the ones used on Super Vees, that might be an easy bolt on for most cars. Other 4 barrel cab manifolds also exist for this engine which might fit a current FC car without large scale modification. This and possibly a camshaft change should get those engines up to the 170-180 hp range, which might get them into the range of power needed. I believe that the Hewland Mk9 and LD200 gearboxes are rated for this power level based on European and Australian series using these gearboxes with this power level. We would need to do more research on what tire sizes are available that would get the cars into the range needed, and the same for the wheel package that would accommodate them and still fit the cars. 8" front, 10" rear might be an option depending upon wheel availability. I would prefer pursuing an open discussion in that realm for the FC cars, prior to any submission to the SEB, rather than putting a winged car into a non-winged car class based on a tire compound that would have dramatically different results on different days in different weather conditions on different surfaces.

I autocrossed FC cars in a spec driver series/challenge in Pennsylvania in the late 90's, so I also know the potential of these cars. An FC would easily tromp an FF, regardless of what tire the FC is limited to. Previous proposals were made to equalize the FC to FF performance with an unrealistic and unsafe amount of added weight, enough to question the structural integrity of the car. To my knowledge, no one attempted to test an FC car at the proposed weight and the discussion quickly faded.

FC cars were intended to be a step up from an FF, just as BMod is intended to be a step up from CMod. Let's see if there is a not-so-intrusive way to make FC cars competitive in their current BMod class first before trying to detune them for CMod.

[Jim Garry]

With zero data, this is an unwise suggestion. It probably would kill the class.

[lowside67]

At the onset, I don't think that Pru's recommendation that a harder tire be enough of a handicap for an FC in CM is accurate. The amount of handicap the hard tire provides would be highly variable on the ambient temperature and having a codriver.

However...

I would suggest a different approach for FC cars, one similar to Solo Vee. Why not allow several simple engine mods and a larger wheel/tire package to allow the FC cars to be more competitive in BMod?

There is no engine mod or wheel/tire package in the world that are going to allow an FC to be even close to competitive in BM. Maybe this wasn't true a decade ago, but definitely is now. There is no point to even beginning to engage in a thought experiment about FC viability in BM.

It is my belief that the FC is *far* closer to being the correct speed for CM than BM. The aero on an FC at autocross speeds is nominal, however the power and torque is not - and that's what needs to be corrected for.

**********

However, it's silly season - so here's what I have been thinking.

AM and BM become one class

A separate discussion for a separate thread, but I think this is viable.

CM Formula F cars adopt FC wheels/tires

A real issue is availability of soft FF tires going forward. There are numerous manufacturers who build FC sized wheel/tires and frankly most Formula F cars are already running the fronts anyways. How about we give Formula F the ability to bolt on FC 6"/8" wheels and tires, with no other changes. This solves for this.

Then separately, we allow FC into CM with a restrictor and a slightly higher minimum weight (I am thinking +50lbs). This adds to the pool of cars for the class, there are MORE older FCs kicking around than FFs and they are generally cheaper. Since everybody is on the same wheels/tires, it is easier yet to achieve parity across the cars.

**********

That's my idea.

-Mark

[Jim Garry]

[Gary Godula]

With zero data, this is an unwise suggestion. It probably would kill the class.

I agree that it is unwise to pursue any proposal without data, but I threw it out there as a discussion starting point. Hopefully people who are more knowledgeable then me in the Pinto/Zetec engines, and the performance limiters of the FC cars, can elaborate and discuss from there. Part of the problem that I see with any FC discussion is there is no one from the FC contingent who is making any proposals or driving for change. As I see it, it is not my job, or anyone outside of the FC contingent's job, to find a place for FC cars and make mostly baseless proposals on configurations in which the FC cars could compete in. That tells me two things...1.) There is not much of a desire from FC owners to compete in solo/autocross, and 2.) That none of the proposals have enough research and data behind them to be even remotely feasible. I will, however, stand behind my previous statement....FCs should be in BMod with the other winged warriors and not in CMod where aerodynamics are mostly prohibited. Might I remind everyone what happened when someone finally prepared a Sports 2000 to be national competitive in CMod: Guy kicked everyone's ass, it wasn't even close, and it was all in the second half of the course. The only saving grace is that very few people want to autocross an S2000.

[Jim Garry]

S2000 was removed from CM about 7 to 10 years ago.

[t walgamuth]

Indeed.

Additionally, provide a place for FC which may eventually be converted to FF/CM. Many (National Championship) CM FF are converted FC; Godula (88 Reynard), Ott, and Clements (both 95/96 Van Diemen) come to mind. Ott noted that he ran his FC Van Diemen for a year in BM before converting over to FF/CM. Did Phil convert the RF-98 you drove from FC to FF? I can't recall...

Finally, numerous folks interested in the class have noted the lack of available FF/CM cars. That is, they have considered joining the class but cannot seem to find suitable cars. Adding the FC (on the Spec R60) to the class opens it up to more cars (which at this point in time is sorely needed).

Phil told me the car had been converted from continental by some owner previous to him.

I have very limited information other than what is offered here. It seems to me the continental is more closely related to the BM than FF.

[Craig Henry]

My 2-cents / random thoughts:

First, I can’t think of anyone that has done more for CM than Chris has done (for decades) and I for one apricate it. He took the time to write and share his FC car proposal to the board and members here. He expressed and shared his opinion, nothing more, that unfortunately resulted in some childish responses. I feel he is owed an apology.

I too have concerns about moving FC cars to FF. That being said, I have always felt unmolested FC cars deserve a competitive home (more so than some existing modified classes) and would thrive if done so. There were a lot of them built, relatively cheap, and look nice (spectators will walk past a dozen FFs to look at one FC with wings.) If “all out” autocross only FA cars are no longer competitive in BM some “bolt-on” allowances for FC isn’t going to help them or increase BM car counts. My guess is a new FC only modified class is the only solution and it isn’t likely to happen. Just one old man’s opinion. I too would welcome some intelligent and civil FC autocross discussion.

Having competed in CM, driving S2’s, many decades ago, they were not dominating the class. Obviously, they had some advantages, compared to a FF, but they had some disadvantages too. Back then, Guy was switching classes almost yearly and won a lot. To imply he only won because he was driving a S2 is pushing it a bit.

When S2 was dropped as a road racing class they were eliminated soon thereafter from CM. I have no idea why as I wasn’t participating and had sold my S2 a few years prior (the vintage groups had made them MUCH more valuable, and they still command HUGE dollars) thus didn’t investigate it. I don’t think anyone had run a S2 in CM (tours or nationals) in several years back then. Again, vintage road racers were buying them all up.

Why did I run a S2 in CM? Back in the day, I spent over a year looking for a decent FF (no internet) without success and stumbled on a local S2 for sale. Took a chance and bought it (cheaper than most FFs at the time.) I’ve always liked the challenge of being the odd car in the class. It also allowed my fat ass to fit without losing any weight. Worked for me. Now retired, I’ve slimmed down 70 lbs. so I finally fit comfortably in the RF92 in the garage.

I do feel a FC would have some advantages over a S2 thus my concerns about trying to fit them into CM. Exploiting loopholes in the “wings” rules for autocross scares me the most. Not worth spending time reviewing them all here unless this group wants my thoughts. Another “rabbit hole.”

The good news is I just got my frame and some needed modified parts back from David Brano last week. Hopefully, I can meet some of you face to face next year. The goal is not to be DFL (all the time.)

Chris, keep the faith. No need to start looking for a Cosworth Vega.

I apologize for rambling on,

Craig

[bassracer]

It's been a minute since I've run CM but I'd be happy to volunteer my services to do some nonbiased AB testing between two different FF and FC chassis if someone wants to lend

Unfortunately my strengths are not developing class parity based on so many complex factors but I am appreciative of anyone continuing to think how to promote formula cars in Solo. We all know we are the best classes and that those street tire 3000lb+ air conditioned racers don't know what they are missing.

[CM/FFdriver]

Hello All,

I'm not sure there is a car shortage I look everyday on Apex speed for cars and I see different FF type cars come and go all time, so converting FC to FF is all good but allowing FC to autocross with CM could be course dependent situation. I really feel bad for the Solo V people in CM already so now allowing FC in the class would change everything.

Right now there's a 76 Tiga for sale for 9,000 and with work you never know. Then there's 2 98 Van Diemen for sale for 25,000 one with a ford and one with a Honda. Yes, the 2 extremes but that's what I'm talking about you never know and as you start building these cars up to go fast you have so much fun. As of next year we SFR has a new CM competitor and found this car set up with auto cross in mind and maybe one more if things go well.

I Joined CM 7 years ago by Mark Mervich advice and of course he told me to buy a car/FF with a lot of the good stuff already installed, That's very hard to find. Someone said once that there's an ebb and flow to the class but you have to get people talking, this could be something in the future because it takes so... long to get a rule change in less....

Right now there are about 10 FF cars in CM not being used and who knows why but I feel like in time they could start coming back out and have fun, so we need to get 15 CM cars out at the National's and the talk would stop.

I can tell you right now running the R60 bais FF tires is only a .500 difference on a 90 degree Calif. day against the R20 front and R25 rear FF tires (have not tested the R20 rear tires yet) and I really feel that the hotter day, it gets better for the R60 could be faster and yes I have tried the 2 different tires on the same day on the same course. So maybe a FC car with Auro and change his ackerman to non-autocross set up to build heat in the front tires with rear wheel spin on the start. Like Brandon said I would love to drive this car.

Ben

[Jim Garry]

I have to agree. I've seen quite a few FFs for sale this year.

Also, it isn't that difficult to convert an FC to an FF.

[Jim Garry]

Been thinking more about adding FC to CMod.

If FC cars were allowed into CMod, smart competitors would not use the skinny wings that come with those cars. Those wings are designed for road racing and allow a good top speed. Instead, the road racing wings would be replaced with autocross wings with aggressive camber profiles that work very well at much lower speeds. They’d essentially be BMod wings that fit into the allowed box given in the GCR.

This would appreciably increase the relative speed of FC cars versus FF and Solo Vee.

FC cars are a bad fit for CMod.

[ewcmr2]

We need to remember FF and FC use the same chassis. It’s easy bolt on changes to convert a FC to FF - remove aero, swap engine and wheels.
If, big IF, we wanted FC to be able to run in CM I’d be looking at inlet restrictors and aero removal.
I have no desire to bring two CM cars to events, one for warm temperatures (FC R60’s) and one for cool temperatures (FF R25b’s).

[chrisw52]

What's the rationale here? Add formula continentals which are faster cars, but handicap them with slower tires, and hope that is approximately the right amount to equalize them?

-Mark

Mark, there is only one rational reason for this proposal.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/hoosier-a7 (p225/45/zr13, p255/40zr13) too big for a formula ford rim, just perfect for the available FC rims sizes.

[griceiv]

well there is also this in the march '23 fastrack:

#33424 CM: Add GCR-compliant FC w GCR Spec Hoosier R60A Tires
Thanks for your feedback, the MAC has concerns of allowing a GCR legal FC into the CM class that can have substantial advantages on certain courses and conditions. We are not recommending this change.

[B17overhead]

No surprise that proposal died.

We knew of the sensitive nature of the CM class back when I contributed to the current set of BM rules roughly 13 years ago. We knew there was no way anyone would ever be happy with FC in CM, so we tried to accommodate it to varying degrees in BM.

FC can run in B-Mod (And I know of number of them running now in BM in several regions):
Under current rules that is with an unmodified FC engine, but with 15" max rim width/unlimited tire plus (significantly better than FC) BM open wheel aero at 1090 lbs. (includes driver).

The rationale for that odd weight break is that BM was and still is a lot like A-Mod where it takes a lot of time and effort to build a car to be truly fast in the solo environment.

So, the typical professionally prepared FC Pinto 2L 8V (about 150 HP) engine would not be a top dog by any means, but would do ok with the special weight break as a lower investment entry to BM.

A fully built 2L 16V engine would be quite an additional investment and could be built in BM to 250-320 HP crank HP but need to run at 1275 lbs. w. driver inc.

A FC car is actually an extremely good base to build a very top-flight BM from.
The chassis and suspension are often a big $/time sink and that part gets a giant head start.