FR Americas v FRP in 2023

[janton9736]

Anyone with experience in either or both of these series- can you share what each is like? What the differences are? Which is better in your opinion for different preferences or options you are aware of?

I am putting together my schedule for next year. I’m driving a PFM Aka Star Pro Formula Mazda now and I *think* for FR America you have to have an F3 like the Ligier. Is that right?

Thanks in Advance!

[Lotus7]

FR Americas is indeed a Ligier-spec-car-only series, you buy direct from Crawford (or perhaps second hand).

The FR car is welcome in FRP's Atlantic class.
Your PFM is also welcome in FRP, but obviously not in FR Americas.

Way too many variables to say one is better than the other, depends entirely on what the driver wants out of his/her racing.

[janton9736]

For this season anyway I'm not in a position to risk balling up a $130k F3 car so that makes the decision for me. I am however interested in learning more about each of these series for those who have actually competed in them.

Thanks for the info!

FR Americas is indeed a Ligier-spec-car-only series, you buy direct from Crawford (or perhaps second hand).

The FR car is welcome in FRP's Atlantic class.
Your PFM is also welcome in FRP, but obviously not in FR Americas.

Way too many variables to say one is better than the other, depends entirely on what the driver wants out of his/her racing.

[Lotus7]

For this season anyway I'm not in a position to risk balling up a $130k F3 car so that makes the decision for me. I am however interested in learning more about each of these series for those who have actually competed in them.

Thanks for the info!

Understandable.
Not sure how many people you'll find with experience in both, and those who've chosen one over the other will likely have their own biases :-)

[Raceworks]

I've participated in FRP since 2011 (mostly F1600 & some F2000) and I've also prepped cars or worked as a mechanic in F4 / FR from 2019 to 2020.

Honestly, unless earning FIA super-license points is important to you or you really, really want to race in an extremely regimented format I'd stay away from FR.

The cars are EXTREMELY spec: as in they even specify where you're allowed to mount cameras and where you can put duct tape. The car spec changes as well. I know it was a "development" year but I literally lost count of the tech bulletins they threw at us, all of which had to be complied with or you would get disqualified even if you were running dead last. Some of those bulletins literally arrived the day I was loading the car in the trailer, necessitating a lot of silly last-minute scrambling.

They do extensive tech on EVERY car before the start of EVERY weekend (they have a whole form they have to fill out), and you need a person to run around just dealing with the all the reporting requirements: you have to turn in your camera cards after every session, there's mandatory downloads of data, etc. All that being said, I will say the officials there were always polite and tried to be as accommodating as they could.

Entry fees and licensing are also much more expensive: The FIA license is $600 if I remember correctly, plus you need a team principal credential, and everyone also needs a crew credential that's a couple hundred bucks. The discounted entry fee package which I think had the team principal credential, a driver license, and one or two crew credentials plus 7 weekends' entry fees was over $35,000.

Also, I think the Ligier / Crawford / whatever FR cars are junk. They are built to a price cap, and while it's not as low as the cap for F4 cars (which are much worse made) it still means compromises had to be made.

ECU failures were common, because they decided to place the computers right behind the radiator in an area of "dead air". The failures continued even after the various "fixes" (including adding a duct in the top of the sidepod, where there isn't really any airflow anyway).

The brake package is marginal, and you'll easily go through $1,000 in brake parts each weekend as you fry the pads and rotors.

There were numerous random suspension failures: in particular because the turnbuckles they used on the suspension pushrods on a 1,700 pound medium-downforce car were the exact same size as what they put an an 1,100 pound Formula F car.

The front wings were extremely flimsy. If you took a curb too hard or dipped a tire off, you'd take off the extremely heavy plastic end-plates, and even if you were lucky enough not to lose the front main element of that you had to throw everything out anyway because the rules are such that you can't even do minor surface repairs of any of the bodywork. You MUST replace them.

Overall, the car's inherent aero balance was off: It made a TON of rear downforce even if you laid the main element as flat as it went, while you usually had to run with the front winglets at maximum to keep it from understeering like a pig.

The transmissions are relatively weak as is the trackside support. While we only had one total failure, the paddle-shifter system frequently acted up. The SADEV rep that travels with the series only seems to have three fixes: 1) Telling you you're doing it wrong, 2) adjusting the cheesy gear position sensor that always goes out of alignment, 3) Selling you a new gearbox at $9,000 a whack.

Engine failures were surprisingly common (I've raced Hondas for nearly 20 years and they're the most reliable engines I've ever raced), and while there is a rule that's supposed to penalize you heavily for changing engines mid-season I don't recall it ever being enforced, even when teams were caught running super-light oils or choking down the oil lines to drop the engine oil pressure & thus gain some short-term horsepower before the engine ate itself.

Did I mention the wheelbase is 113"? It has the turning radius of a garbage truck.

In short, I'm not a fan. At the same time I worked on a Swift 016 FA car, and that thing was vastly superior in every respect, except parts were hard to come by owing to the fact the car's been out of production for over a decade.

By contrast FRP is more laid back, the entry fee & credential costs are a fraction of FR's, and you don't have to be married to a hyper-spec car that's an FIA meeting away from being turned into an expensive paperweight. They have their problems, too (every couple of seasons there's some excessive man-drama with either driving or the rules, but it's about standard for a sport with big wallets and bigger egos). There's far worse things you could do with your car than take it to an FRP event or two to test the waters out.

[janton9736]

that’s an awesome, candid response and I thank you!

I've participated in FRP since 2011 (mostly F1600 & some F2000) and I've also prepped cars or worked as a mechanic in F4 / FR from 2019 to 2020.

Honestly, unless earning FIA super-license points is important to you or you really, really want to race in an extremely regimented format I'd stay away from FR.

The cars are EXTREMELY spec: as in they even specify where you're allowed to mount cameras and where you can put duct tape. The car spec changes as well. I know it was a "development" year but I literally lost count of the tech bulletins they threw at us, all of which had to be complied with or you would get disqualified even if you were running dead last. Some of those bulletins literally arrived the day I was loading the car in the trailer, necessitating a lot of silly last-minute scrambling.

They do extensive tech on EVERY car before the start of EVERY weekend (they have a whole form they have to fill out), and you need a person to run around just dealing with the all the reporting requirements: you have to turn in your camera cards after every session, there's mandatory downloads of data, etc. All that being said, I will say the officials there were always polite and tried to be as accommodating as they could.

Entry fees and licensing are also much more expensive: The FIA license is $600 if I remember correctly, plus you need a team principal credential, and everyone also needs a crew credential that's a couple hundred bucks. The discounted entry fee package which I think had the team principal credential, a driver license, and one or two crew credentials plus 7 weekends' entry fees was over $35,000.

Also, I think the Ligier / Crawford / whatever FR cars are junk. They are built to a price cap, and while it's not as low as the cap for F4 cars (which are much worse made) it still means compromises had to be made.

ECU failures were common, because they decided to place the computers right behind the radiator in an area of "dead air". The failures continued even after the various "fixes" (including adding a duct in the top of the sidepod, where there isn't really any airflow anyway).

The brake package is marginal, and you'll easily go through $1,000 in brake parts each weekend as you fry the pads and rotors.

There were numerous random suspension failures: in particular because the turnbuckles they used on the suspension pushrods on a 1,700 pound medium-downforce car were the exact same size as what they put an an 1,100 pound Formula F car.

The front wings were extremely flimsy. If you took a curb too hard or dipped a tire off, you'd take off the extremely heavy plastic end-plates, and even if you were lucky enough not to lose the front main element of that you had to throw everything out anyway because the rules are such that you can't even do minor surface repairs of any of the bodywork. You MUST replace them.

Overall, the car's inherent aero balance was off: It made a TON of rear downforce even if you laid the main element as flat as it went, while you usually had to run with the front winglets at maximum to keep it from understeering like a pig.

The transmissions are relatively weak as is the trackside support. While we only had one total failure, the paddle-shifter system frequently acted up. The SADEV rep that travels with the series only seems to have three fixes: 1) Telling you you're doing it wrong, 2) adjusting the cheesy gear position sensor that always goes out of alignment, 3) Selling you a new gearbox at $9,000 a whack.

Engine failures were surprisingly common (I've raced Hondas for nearly 20 years and they're the most reliable engines I've ever raced), and while there is a rule that's supposed to penalize you heavily for changing engines mid-season I don't recall it ever being enforced, even when teams were caught running super-light oils or choking down the oil lines to drop the engine oil pressure & thus gain some short-term horsepower before the engine ate itself.

Did I mention the wheelbase is 113"? It has the turning radius of a garbage truck.

In short, I'm not a fan. At the same time I worked on a Swift 016 FA car, and that thing was vastly superior in every respect, except parts were hard to come by owing to the fact the car's been out of production for over a decade.

By contrast FRP is more laid back, the entry fee & credential costs are a fraction of FR's, and you don't have to be married to a hyper-spec car that's an FIA meeting away from being turned into an expensive paperweight. They have their problems, too (every couple of seasons there's some excessive man-drama with either driving or the rules, but it's about standard for a sport with big wallets and bigger egos). There's far worse things you could do with your car than take it to an FRP event or two to test the waters out.