Alternative Majors Race Class Groupings - Letter #30422

[BeerBudgetRacing]

With all due respect, "effecting travel plans at this late date" is a stock BS answer from somebody who is not doing or can't be bothered with doing their job.

I did receive a nice reply from SCCA.

This happened to be a SuperTour event - considered the 'National Series'.

Travel plans is 1 of 3 reasons they cannot change groupings. Numbers and 'changing the product' are the other 2.

It seems SuperTour IS less flexible.

My bad. My advice: Monitor the upcoming event and cancel if the groupings look bad. I'm not sure how many people attend more than 1 SuperTour event. Got to be a small number.

[problemchild]

It may be someone's opinion that travel plans don't matter, but that is not an absolute. If I am in a low subscription very fast class, or a very slow class (perhaps lowly subscribed in some areas) like FV, then the race groupings are a major factor in my race selection. If I enter an event in my FV expecting to race with FF and F500, then travel 10 hours to an event, to find out that they have moved FC or FE2 into my group, then I would go home and never came back. If entries are so poor that they combine all OW cars into one Formula Alphabet group, then I won't be happy, but have some level of understanding.

[Steve Bamford]

Running FC with FV is dangerous, keep wings & things in their own group & allow FV/FF/F500 run together.

I have driven both FC & FV in SCCA events along with FF. The combination of FV with winged cars is enough to keep people home. Test days are bad enough when combined, never mind in race conditions. Don't mix FC or anything close to their lap times with FV please. Notice I said lap times & not trap speeds.

[CheckeredFlag]

Over the last 5 years whenever there has been an imbalance of car counts our FC group almost always asks for some sort of redistribution. It improves things for everyone. To the best of my knowledge it has NEVER been granted at a Majors event even when CalClub staff has asked. The response is always "can't".
So, not sure if I've ever seen it written but I don't think I've ever seen a grouping change at a Majors race in CalClub.
CalClub staff has always said they can't change things because it's a Majors race and national is in charge.

Ask Peter West. He usually spearheads the effort and the drivers appreciate it. It usually improves racing for several classes. He asked last weekend and received no response.

Like I've said, just trying to improve the product.
Suggested putting in place some go to alternatives to lighten the load on RDs .
Didn't think it was so offensive, controversial and critical of the club.

It used to be that thinking outside the box was welcomed and appreciated.
Now you're punished for thinking out of line. But hey, this is 2021.
"Write a letter. But not that letter."

Said my piece. Will wait for my 'thanks for the letter but' response and stop making suggestions.

Criticisms of an argument can be used to your own advantage. In seeing an opposing view, one can strengthen his own argument. Consider making a letter in the form of a Rogerian Argument that will improve your position. Your class groupings argument is sound and I appreciate your position. I don't have an argument either for or against, but following the 50-car open wheel group 5 and the melee at the start at COTA, I'm open to improvements. The VIR Super Tour event seems to be splitting up the open wheel groups into FA/P1/P2 in one group and FC/FE/FX in another.

[Bob Wright]

A lot goes into scheduling a weekend and in many cases you have no idea of the entries when you do the schedule. FRP has posted all the weekend schedules (less two) through October but almost always adjusts to the entry count as the weekend gets close, and we only have about 5-6 classes to deal with, not 27ish. The one thing we pay close attention to is not shifting a class to later, especially the last day because of presumed participant travel plans- shifting earlier is not an issue.

COTA this February is a perfect example of the stewards not realizing what could happen if you put 51 wings and prototypes on the track together, then have a late green flag. In the case of the Sunday race, the solution was simple; split start to two slowest classes. This should always be a consideration with large, multi-class entries.

It appears that the super tour managers may have learned from COTA and are splitting out P1/P2/FA and FC/FE/FX

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Criticisms of an argument can be used to your own advantage. In seeing an opposing view, one can strengthen his own argument. Consider making a letter in the form of a Rogerian Argument that will improve your position. Your class groupings argument is sound and I appreciate your position. I don't have an argument either for or against, but following the 50-car open wheel group 5 and the melee at the start at COTA, I'm open to improvements. The VIR Super Tour event seems to be splitting up the open wheel groups into FA/P1/P2 in one group and FC/FE/FX in another.

It appears that the super tour managers may have learned from COTA and are splitting out P1/P2/FA and FC/FE/FX

My position was and is that those in charge HAVE the information a head of time and can/should proactively make changes.

The reply from SCCA indicated that participants make travel plans based on the schedule. I can see this related to runoffs where changing the day of a race would be a problem, but not a change of schedule on a Sunday. As participants we should anticipate that the schedule MAY change.

I'm glad they are paying more attention to the numbers and groupings. Hopefully this doesn't mean those darn open wheel/sport racer classes are becoming a bigger PITA!

[John Nesbitt]

My position was and is that those in charge HAVE the information a head of time and can/should proactively make changes.

The reply from SCCA indicated that participants make travel plans based on the schedule. I can see this related to runoffs where changing the day of a race would be a problem, but not a change of schedule on a Sunday. As participants we should anticipate that the schedule MAY change.

I'm glad they are paying more attention to the numbers and groupings. Hopefully this doesn't mean those darn open wheel/sport racer classes are becoming a bigger PITA!

Look at the registration numbers for most any non-Runoffs event. Typically, after an initial burst, registrations arrive at a steady pace right up to two or three days before the event.

In my experience as a Chief Steward, it is a commonplace that people will organize their travel and other commitments around the published group order.

The least disruptive (from the point of view of inconveniencing entrants) is to move cars to an earlier run group, but even that has its risks. I have seen Regions tweak group compositions, only to have a last-minute spurt of entries make the change unadvisable.

As a driver, I made decisions about which events to enter in part based on the published race groups. If I arrived at the track to find that the groups had changed, I made it a point to express my unhappiness to the Race Chair, and to point out that I would remember the experience when making future plans.

The bottom line is that any group changes need to be made at least a week out, in order to give people a chance to change their plans, and withdraw if preferred.

[TrackBrat]

One thing I will say about split starts which I have seen some mention. Part of the responsibility is up to you! If you want a split start or think it is needed then go to the stewards. I have seen many races where this has happened at the request of the drivers and it worked out well.

We have a Gen 2 series here in Cendiv, and we have implemented a great system to split the Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars for the race we are combined. It is a gap start. Pretty much a split start but without the second pace car. We initially had it as a constant single green but was realized we were too fast coming up on the backmarkers of the first group.

We have implemented a Start Zone per say, or Cone Start. We put a big orange cone on the wall. We will crawl till we get to that point and then go, often with a green flag also. It has been a very effective system so far, with a few hiccups due to communication with the starters on the procedure.



As for race groupings there are reasons why some cars are never put with others. There is a good chance it was tried before and things went bad. There is a story of a GT1 car with a GT5 car at Road America for example. Sometimes speed difference or car design/construction do not mix. Also some classes have to have certain warmup times like GT1 cars. We often cannot put them as the early groups due to local sound ordinances which is why we have no engines after a certain time in the paddocks. There is often a lot going on behind the scenes that many do not realize.

As I said with other things, petitioning as a group gives you a lot of say power vs doing it alone. It might not get the results you want but hopefully it puts it in the back of their minds, and with scheduling sometimes we just have accept some juggling at times if field sizes are vastly different and such.

[tahoe z]

One thing I will say about split starts which I have seen some mention. Part of the responsibility is up to you! If you want a split start or think it is needed then go to the stewards. I have seen many races where this has happened at the request of the drivers and it worked out well.

We have a Gen 2 series here in Cendiv, and we have implemented a great system to split the Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars for the race we are combined. It is a gap start. Pretty much a split start but without the second pace car. We initially had it as a constant single green but was realized we were too fast coming up on the backmarkers of the first group.

We have implemented a Start Zone per say, or Cone Start. We put a big orange cone on the wall. We will crawl till we get to that point and then go, often with a green flag also. It has been a very effective system so far, with a few hiccups due to communication with the starters on the procedure.



As for race groupings there are reasons why some cars are never put with others. There is a good chance it was tried before and things went bad. There is a story of a GT1 car with a GT5 car at Road America for example. Sometimes speed difference or car design/construction do not mix. Also some classes have to have certain warmup times like GT1 cars. We often cannot put them as the early groups due to local sound ordinances which is why we have no engines after a certain time in the paddocks. There is often a lot going on behind the scenes that many do not realize.

As I said with other things, petitioning as a group gives you a lot of say power vs doing it alone. It might not get the results you want but hopefully it puts it in the back of their minds, and with scheduling sometimes we just have accept some juggling at times if field sizes are vastly different and such.

Sports racers need to go I can deal with FA I am will to pay more for f 200 pacific to run on our own during the weekend be it scca. NASA. Or vintage. We have a great group. But the sr group make u drive ca in the mirrors all the time not good

[patman]

I would like to point out that drivers are just as important as cars. I personally don't really mind being mixed in with other classes IF the drivers are good. I generally let anyone from another class who can catch me go on past, and though I'm occasionally annoyed by a bad combination with a slower car for part of a lap I always figure all the other cars in my class have to deal with it too. In fact, I occasionally have quite enjoyable races for a lap or two with someone from another class who happens to be similar speed.

What bothers me is when drivers in a slower class purposely obstruct, or faster ones make unsafe passes. We are in an amateur 'for fun' series, even at majors/super tours, and need to keep that in mind. Perhaps a bit more training or communication to this effect would help out.

Perhaps not so coincidentally I have also observed that the same drivers who exacerbate these issues seem to be the ones who crash more often. I am much more annoyed by a black flag than a minor traffic hassle. I know we don't believe in 'fault' anymore but there must be a way to help all drivers get on the same page.

[tahoe z]

I would like to point out that drivers are just as important as cars. I personally don't really mind being mixed in with other classes IF the drivers are good. I generally let anyone from another class who can catch me go on past, and though I'm occasionally annoyed by a bad combination with a slower car for part of a lap I always figure all the other cars in my class have to deal with it too. In fact, I occasionally have quite enjoyable races for a lap or two with someone from another class who happens to be similar speed.

What bothers me is when drivers in a slower class purposely obstruct, or faster ones make unsafe passes. We are in an amateur 'for fun' series, even at majors/super tours, and need to keep that in mind. Perhaps a bit more training or communication to this effect would help out.

Perhaps not so coincidentally I have also observed that the same drivers who exacerbate these issues seem to be the ones who crash more often. I am much more annoyed by a black flag than a minor traffic hassle. I know we don't believe in 'fault' anymore but there must be a way to help all drivers get on the same page.

worried about fc closing speed. On fc. What about p1 on fc and I was taken out last month at thunder hill by a POS diver that got 3 race probation. For 8 k damage first lap of qual hard to deal with

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What bothers me is when drivers in a slower class purposely obstruct, or faster ones make unsafe passes. We are in an amateur 'for fun' series, even at majors/super tours, and need to keep that in mind. Perhaps a bit more training or communication to this effect would help out.

I think people forget this - often. I was almost taken out last fall by a class leader on the last lap as he decided to pass me and pushed me off. It wasn't a necessary pass (he was leading by 1/2 lap) with 500ft to go. The only way he wasn't going to win was if he didn't finish, but he decided to push me anyway. I don't get it.