Runoffs

[BLS]

Looks from qualifying that the race this year might be a really good one.

Good luck to all! The rest of us will be watching.

[Bob L.]

Agree times imply some really good racing to be had....if not seen.

Sure hope video gets better. S/F suffered from sun coming thru stands in afternoon...made 12-14 spots on display..later blanked out a section. Might have been better from west side of track, with sun behind. Both that location and backside (only 2 spots to view) couldn't see cars very well at speed....blurry, poor resolution, far away...head on shots didn't help. Just saw some color and maybe a number flash by, no detail, couldn't make out model/type. (Maybe with spec classes not such a big issue?) For a place as high tech as Indy, surely they have much better capability on site (Barbers does), with more locations....than want I saw on SCCA and u-tube today. SCCA requires all cars to have forward viewing cameras... I imagine those have much better resolution/clarity than what us remote viewers, saw from track.

Issue can't be at my end, as my replay clips are so clean and clear....Besides, prior runoff coverages were much better than what I've seen so far.

Perhaps I'm early to this, and things will improve. Sure hope so.

Bob L. (4 digit member #)

[racerjon1]

Sure hope video gets better. S/F suffered from sun coming thru stands in afternoon...made 12-14 spots on display..later blanked out a section. Might have been better from west side of track, with sun behind. Both that location and backside (only 2 spots to view) couldn't see cars very well at speed....blurry, poor resolution, far away...head on shots didn't help. Just saw some color and maybe a number flash by, no detail, couldn't make out model/type. (Maybe with spec classes not such a big issue?) For a place as high tech as Indy, surely they have much better capability on site (Barbers does), with more locations....than want I saw on SCCA and u-tube today

Hi Bob, thanks for watching the feed, I'll give you some info.

Each of our cameras for qualifying are the same as any of the other Hoosier Super Tour events - two static cameras to allow some watching but not really capable of true coverage. For the races, there will be the full broadcast team, multiple cameras, a director, etc.

We're going to look at putting more of an angle into the front straight camera tomorrow, but if we put it on the other side it would be in the sun most of the day. Hopefully the angle will cut down on the glare issue as the sun dips behind the stands.

For the back straight, it can keep the sun above/behind it so we take care of the glare but we chose the straight and head-on so it would show the longest possible time. Any side shots will have less time the cars are on screen. So.. it's sort of a compromise to have one shot of the side of cars, one shot that shows more track. My hope is to raise the back straight one tomorrow a little more, but I'll need to climb the fence and I'm not sure IMS would have been happy since my name isn't Helio ;-)

[E1pix]

I’ve very much loved to be able to have ANY coverage in the week before racing, and in the Arts myself for 46 years — (and attendee of 18 Runoffs since 1972 as fan, photographer and reporter, crew, and roaming sign painter, all functions by ‘85) — the Runoffs is a gift as is this week’s coverage.

This was to be our 19th, but we couldn’t make it for relying perhaps too fully on our VW Westy.

For me, running this week’s live video if mostly for the soundtrack does much to look forward to our 19th. As is Live timing, though it took me a spell to realize the current session is actually the bottom link rather than the “Live Timing” link atop the others.

I have gotten some “not available in your country” errors, but reloading the URL fixes it. We’re in Colorado, kinda remote, but two bars LTE ,should that mean anything.

Thanks for replying on this thread, and Happy Shooting.


Aside, GO FARNHAMS!!!


Coverage link for the uninitiated:
https://www.scca.com/events/1997530-...other_sessions

[Bubbagsj]

Aside, GO FARNHAMS!!!

+1

[racerjon1]

I’ve very much loved to be able to have ANY coverage in the week before racing, and in the Arts myself for 46 years — (and attendee of 18 Runoffs since 1972 as fan, photographer and reporter, crew, and roaming sign painter, all functions by ‘85) — the Runoffs is a gift as is this week’s coverage.

Appreciate this! Basically the National Staff for the online media coverage of this event is six people. Two writers, two photographers, and then two traffic directors to sort it, edit it, post it. We set the static cameras up in the morning, then run through the process of the day. Its busy, fun, and certainly rewarding.

For me, running this week’s live video if mostly for the soundtrack does much to look forward to our 19th. As is Live timing, though it took me a spell to realize the current session is actually the bottom link rather than the “Live Timing” link atop the others.

This is an outside contractor that sets that up and I'll have Kristen (SCCA Director of Marketing) see if there are any intuitive changes that can be explored for the future!

I have gotten some “not available in your country” errors, but reloading the URL fixes it. We’re in Colorado, kinda remote, but two bars LTE ,should that mean anything.

Glad the reload worked, the other day the static camera picked up the wrong song on the PA and we got a "copywrite strike" and youtube shut the feed off. Essentially, youtube has tech that "listens" for the right digital signature and if it picks it up and you don't "own" it, down it goes.

[Steve Davis]

On the outlap of yesterdays' FV q session, Dennis Andrade had an engine problem and coasted off the the right side of the Hullman straight. He stayed there while the entire field passed by and a green was shown at S/F to begin the first timed lap. I was near the front and passed Dennis and verified that he was fully off the track.. though not by much. He was near the beginning of the straight and pretty much in a 'safe' location. We completed that timed lap (those near the front) and then received FCY going into 2 (or maybe even 1) and continued around at a reduced pace - not knowing why the FCY was displayed. We passed Dennis again and a tow truck was there getting ready to hook him up. We continued around. When we got back to S/F, the FCY was gone .. but I didn't see a real GREEN.. Unsure, we accelerated on the straight and towards T1 only to find FCY displayed there again.. and then at T2 we received FCY + RED. My group of cars knocked off speed and coasted through 3 and then crawled slowly up toward the T4 flag station and stopped. I could only see 1 car behind me a couple hundred yards back near the T3 station. After a few minutes of sitting in the HOT sun, a T4 station worker walked out to my group and told us there had been a rollover of a car being towed and we would be there for a bit. The station people seemed to be looking intently down towards the end of the straight, but that's all we could see. After maybe 10 minutes, he waved us on around with a black... with a BLACK. We continued into the pits where we sat for another 6 or 7 minutes. Finally we were released and we got 3 more timed laps (one of which was the pitout lap) and the checker was shown. Apparently, the RED did NOT stop our clock.

INFO. The rollover was Dennis Andrade being pulled at excessive speed (according to him) down the straight and something .. not sure exactly what, happened as the tow truck turned left at the end of the straight. Dennis said he was frantically waving at the truck, but could not actually SEE the driver because the strap was so short all he could see was the back of the truck. As the tow truck turned left, the angle of HARD ATTACHMENT to the race car became extreme and Dennis's' car was SNATCHED completely off the ground, several feet into the air and flipped over and then SLAMMED back down onto the asphalt, where he bounced back into the air and slammed down again .. still upside down on the roll bar - the tow truck continued to drag him until something on the car caught something and flipped him back over and onto his wheels before the truck finally came to a stop. Somewhere in this process is when the RED was displayed. An ambulance was dispatched immediately and Dennis was removed from his car unconscious. They went to the infield hospital and then right on to a local hospital. Somewhere along the way, Dennis recovered consciousness and seemed to be OK. They ran several tests at the hospital, bandaged up his left arm where it had hit the pavement and released him. He spent the night in the motel and they were at the track this morning. Dennis and Donna are really upset about it, but otherwise OK medically speaking. A tow truck hooked up to a perfectly fine, pristine, race car (and driver) and turned it into a car that has several thousands of dollars of damage and put the driver in the hospital.

I'm sure there will be more about this .. though much of it may become HUSHED. The word is, that Roger (Penske) is flying in today to personally investigate, and SCCA officials were also by this morning to talk to Dennis about the incident -- they said they were VERY SORRY it happened .. and possibly someone else from SCCA would be by to talk to them later.

There was a somewhat long range video of the incident uploaded to FB yesterday (by someone from the local area) and I was able to VIEW it a couple of times, but when I looked for it a couple hours later, it had already been taken down. It was VERY TERRIFYING to watch.

Just some basic info for people who might have heard that "something happened" in yesterdays' Q session at the Runoffs.

Steve, FV80

[-pru-]

Appreciate the update; glad to hear the driver is okay!

There was a somewhat long range video of the incident uploaded to FB yesterday (by someone from the local area) and I was able to VIEW it a couple of times, but when I looked for it a couple hours later, it had already been taken down. It was VERY TERRIFYING to watch.

Video: https://www.facebook.com/SpecDrama/v...91362085610998

[R. Pare]

Sounds like a lawsuit in the making.

Knowing Roger, however, he might just pay for the damage himself.

[FVRacer21]

.

the angle of HARD ATTACHMENT to the race car

Steve, FV80

Something similar happened at Lime Rock Years ago as a driver was being pulled out of the very flooded infield. But we think that was due to the angle and the mud.

I have been flat towed that way in the past and even though we are adrenaline junkies, the first time it can be terrifying. Some tracks avoid it, but many are doing hot pulls or are flat towing cars at end of the session.

The tow rope should be long, the driver should be able to release the rope (it can be hard to keep it from not releasing - work on your grip strength) - refuse a hard connection! And the tow truck driver needs to go slow.

ChrisZ


PS Trying to keep the rope tight (truck to car) the jerking when starting off and then you have to be ready for the offset pull (they never pull perfectly straight) and remember - you are steering with one hand! I think we need to add this to our April School curriculum.

[R. Pare]

Also looks like it was hard strapped, which should never happen. The driver should have refused the tow once he saw that it was going to be a non-detachable strap attachment.

Further, is there a curbing there that the tow truck was driving over? Somehow the Vee got spun backwards just before the strap flipped him.

[reidhazelton]

Also looks like it was hard strapped, which should never happen. The driver should have refused the tow once he saw that it was going to be a non-detachable strap attachment.

Further, is there a curbing there that the tow truck was driving over? Somehow the Vee got spun backwards just before the strap flipped him.

Good eye! I didn't notice that. My guess is there must be curbing, or the driver was already trying very hard to slow down and locked the brakes up realizing they were going too fast. High centered on the belly pan over a curb, or locked rear wheels would make the car spin with the tow rope on the roll bar that is behind the chassis centerline and at the highest point of the car.

Glad to hear he is ok. That looked like a hard hit.

[R. Pare]

Whomever that tow truck driver is, he needs to be educated on how to properly attach to a car, and how to tow, as he obviously doesn't know either worth a sh!t.

[Hardingfv32]

I can only remember using a hand held tow strap. I want to brief my drive on this situation.

1) You would not have much time to stop the hard tow connection. What does it look like compared to a hand held tow strap as the worker approaches the car?

2) If worker refuse a hand held tow strap connection, is the driver's only option to exit the car?

Brian

[stonebridge20]

After watching someone get turned over like that at Bridgehampton many moons ago, I absolutely refuse to be towed with a hard attachment.

[R. Pare]

I can only remember using a hand held tow strap. I want to brief my drive on this situation.

1) You would not have much time to stop the hard tow connection. What does it look like compared to a hand held tow strap as the worker approaches the car?

2) If worker refuse a hand held tow strap connection, is the driver's only option to exit the car?

Brian

No idea what the rules are about this - if any at all - but my advice to a driver would be to get out of the car if the tow driver used a solid connection, and then undo it.

[BLS]

Thanks for the update and news Steve. It's something I didn't know. I can't begin to imagine, must have been terrifying.

I'm glad to hear Dennis is OK.

I hope there is a result that precludes anything like this ever happening again.

[Bob L.]

S/F camera angle/sun much better today, during quali...no ghosts. Full course coverage during last chance races, was even better....could read the numbers....now, if I can just get live results to synch up with live viewing.....

Another thought: Add a quick link to schedule on the "live coverage" page, so one can quickly find what's next up or coming later, without back out to pull schedule up.

Keep up good work. looking forward to more great racing.

Towed Vee flip was extremely unhappy/sad event....appears all were being "looked after", in avoiding greater tragedy....Wish best for all involved.

Bob L.

[E1pix]

You’re welcome RacerJon, and Thanks for your efforts.

Please say Hello to Greg C. from Eric & Sandy.

[racerjon1]

S/F camera angle/sun much better today, during quali...no ghosts.

Awesome, so glad to hear. We were able to tweak it a little and hoped that helped.

Full course coverage during last chance races, was even better....could read the numbers....now, if I can just get live results to synch up with live viewing.....

Yep, that's the real broadcast crew for the races, so that's "real" coverage. As far as timing, especially with the broadcast, I'm not sure it will ever line up perfect. I'll frequently watch NASCAR/IndyCar live timing during the race and there seems to always be a 45-1:30 delay. I think it has to do with just making sure that there is a delay for anything that absolutely shouldn't go out.

Another thought: Add a quick link to schedule on the "live coverage" page, so one can quickly find what's next up or coming later, without back out to pull schedule up.

So, it's two steps but there is an "Event Details" link on the T&S page, and that will take you to the page with the menu for the schedule. I'll see what kind of edibility we might have for a quicker link.

Keep up good work. looking forward to more great racing.

Thank you! These days get more and more hectic and between the broadcast team and then scca.com/social media channels we should be getting you lots of great racing coverage!

[racerjon1]

Thanks for your efforts.

Please say Hello to Greg C. from Eric & Sandy.

You're very welcome, happy to bring it to the folks at home so to speak.

I'll make sure to tell Greg hi from you guys tomorrow!

[Matt Clark]

Good eye! I didn't notice that. My guess is there must be curbing, or the driver was already trying very hard to slow down and locked the brakes up realizing they were going too fast. High centered on the belly pan over a curb, or locked rear wheels would make the car spin with the tow rope on the roll bar that is behind the chassis centerline and at the highest point of the car.

Glad to hear he is ok. That looked like a hard hit.

Just a guess from personal experience, but I would not be surprised if it got yanked sideways because of the rollbar being so far back and/or the strap moved more to the side of the rollhoop. With the main hoop location on a Protoform, it would be kinda easy for the rear end to want to overtake the front once the truck was offset enough.

I had a similar issue the other year while being flat towed, where the strap moved to the left side of the roll bar & the truck was making a sharper left turn, that made the car feel like it was gonna be drug sideways. Luckily it was a proper loop that I was holding & I let go. With a high speed pull & turn like Dennis had, I could easily see being pulled over as we saw.

[R. Pare]

The car was backwards and sideways before the strap yanked on the roll bar - not that easy to see from the video, but after a few times of watching it slowed down, it becomes obvious that something made the car spin before the strap tipped him over. Exactly what, though, cannot be seen because the tow truck is in the way at that point in time.

[E1pix]

Live Runoffs FV rolls out in 26 minutes.
https://www.scca.com/events/1997530-...-1633093942-41

Go, Farnhams!

(off-topic, SM was epic. Connor Zilisch has *real* superstar potential).

[DD16]

Richard, for me it appears that the turn of the car was in response to the curbing. My GUESS is Dennis tried to get off the curb and the short tow rope and speed of the tow caught him out. It'll be interesting to hear directly from Dennis.

[RussMcB]

That was a fun race to watch. Congrats to all.

Regarding the towing incident, this is very distressing to me. I've needed rope tows several times over the years and it is shocking how many tow truck guys don't know about a rope tow you can let go of quickly. Too often they have a huge, heavy hook.

I always thought this problem was mostly regional, but now I see they don't even know this simple safety procedure at the National Championship races!

It's hard to believe a safety procedure I was taught at my driver's school in the 1980's is not 100% prevalent by now. SCCA should require it at every event as part of their safety/insurance protocol. Perhaps this incident will prompt that change. I hope so. Then we can more easily get tracks to do it for non-SCCA events, too (like test days).

[BLS]

Great race! Too bad the incident with a few laps to go made it a 2 man affair. Congratulations to Andrew Whitson for what I think is his 2nd national championship. Congratulations to Brian Farnham and his dad Mark on the 2nd place finish. Close, about a tenth behind. And the final podium spot went to Andrew Abbot, congratulations.

[E1pix]

Awesome race.

All Brian has to do is gain .108 in Virginia, about one shoe length per lap.

I’d donate a pair, but not sure he’d want them.

[Hardingfv32]

Regarding the towing incident.....

Maybe we should require tow hooks front and rear like the enclosed wheel classes.

Is there more than meets the eye with such installations on a formula car? I realize mounting a bracket could get complicated.

Brian

[R. Pare]

Tow hooks would only add to the potential for car damage - too many tow truck drivers hook up very out of line with the car, and then try to yank the car quickly, especially if it is stuck in mud. I've watched tow trucks flip even sedans in those circumstances.

[Hardingfv32]

..... High centered on the belly pan over a curb, or locked rear wheels would make the car spin with the tow rope on the roll bar that is behind the chassis centerline and at the highest point of the car.

I was told that the driver was braking very hard, he had never been so close to a tow truck before during a fat tow. The truck slowed very abruptly for the turn causing slack in the tow rope which then got under/behind a front wheel. When the truck re-accelerated out of turn the rope behind the front wheel wheel caused the car to rotate, etc.

A major issue was the driver using only his lap belt during the flat tow. While this is standard procedure it was a major cause of the drivers injuries. His helmet made contact with the ground knocking him out. He did not regain consciousness until arriving at the hospital. He was lucky not to suffer serious arm injuries with no arm restraints on.

I do not believe there is any compensation under discussing.

Email me for a copy of the very poor video that was taken down. It is a little amazing how bad a simple flat tow can go bad.

Brian

[Steve Davis]

Brian,
I talked to Dennis after he got back to the track the next morning and HE said he was still FULLY belted into his car for the tow (thankfully). If you saw the video, you would see WHY he was knocked unconscious. It's truly amazing that he was not injured more seriously. It appeared to me that the tow strap (which was HARD ATTACHED to the LF roll bar brace) was stretched across his FACE .. which was thankfully protected by his helmet, at least at one point . The attached strap HAD to cross from the 'left side' pull direction to the 'right side' pull direction during his flip over and then probably again when he came back upright on his wheels. Also, he regained consciousness on the way to the infield hospital according to my best info (Dennis's wife), but was transported off site to the hospital immediately anyway, due to the seriousness of the impact(s).

No one is 'discussing' compensation and I doubt we'll ever hear any more about it. But I'm pretty sure there WAS some. THAT incident was 100% avoidable by the tow truck driver .. Dennis had NO INPUT. He was being towed at (too much) speed by a probably 4 or more TON truck. Vee brakes were not useful... the tow truck didn't even realize that Dennis and his car were UPSIDE DOWN until the corner workers were finally able to get his attention after he made the turn out of T7.

Also.. fyi to other posts, the T7 inner curbing is almost flat. I could not even tell it was there at speed. .. and Dennis never even got close to that curbing. He was IN THE AIR *MANY* feet from that curbing out on the end of the 'ski rope' by that time.

Steve, FV80

[Hardingfv32]

Thanks for the correction.

How was your event/race?

Brian

[Steve Davis]

Thanks for the correction.

How was your event/race?

Brian

We had a great time. Didn't finish where I wanted to be, but didn't crash or spin (during the race.. and just ONCE for the entire week ) and I'm finally getting the car close to where I want it to be. .. and I can now tell my non-racing friends that I have RACED at Indianapolis Motor Speedway .. with no 'proviso's

Steve, FV80

[Terry Hanushek]

Steve

Thanks for giving us the inside story of this incident. Scary stuff, indeed - I'm shocked that they used a hard attachment (I wonder if that it what they do for Indy cars). I'm really glad that Dennis is OK. Between IMS and SCCA, I hope Dennis' car gets better as well.

[cory mcleod]

At Homestead and Pitt this year, the tow drivers wanted to use a hard connection. When I asked to hold the rope instead, they acted like they'd never heard of that before. The driver at Homestead even turned me in to the SOC for "arguing" with him.

At Pitt, the driver tried to pull me twice from a 90+ degree angle. A hard connection would have pulled my car right over. Luckily I was able to let go of the rope and then explain that he needed to pull me from the front.

I know we are just another gig for many of the tow drivers and they are not specialists at towing race cars. Why can't the SCCA mandate no hard connections for formula cars?

[Steve Davis]

Why can't the SCCA mandate no hard connections for formula cars?

Send a letter - crbscca.com . I will.

I will also send a letter requesting that FV and FC not be grouped together ... even for testing or qualifying (although THEY can't enforce testing) unless the car counts are LESS THAN 5 for at least 1 of the classes. At Indy, we had 15 FC's and 26 vees (plus some FF and F5's - a total of SIXTY cars) on Monday. It was U G L Y until they agreed to separate the vees out for the 2nd session (of TWO). We only got 1 timed lap in the first session. Fortunately no one was seriously injured, but there WAS substantial damage to at least 2 cars because FC, by nature, can STOP in less than half of the minimum braking distance for a vee. And they are not generally USED to running with vees like FF and F5. I came within a nat's hair of clobbering an FC that jumped on the brakes when he saw a BLACK at T12. I was faced with 'him or the wall', but braking for all I was worth, I managed to barely avoid either. In the second session, I believe both groups got the full time with no incidents.

Steve, FV80

[mmi16]

Something similar happened at Lime Rock Years ago as a driver was being pulled out of the very flooded infield. But we think that was due to the angle and the mud.

I have been flat towed that way in the past and even though we are adrenaline junkies, the first time it can be terrifying. Some tracks avoid it, but many are doing hot pulls or are flat towing cars at end of the session.

The tow rope should be long, the driver should be able to release the rope (it can be hard to keep it from not releasing - work on your grip strength) - refuse a hard connection! And the tow truck driver needs to go slow.

ChrisZ


PS Trying to keep the rope tight (truck to car) the jerking when starting off and then you have to be ready for the offset pull (they never pull perfectly straight) and remember - you are steering with one hand! I think we need to add this to our April School curriculum.

Those doing the towing are IMS personnel - NOT SCCA. Their (IMS) plan is to tow the disabled car to a transfer location for SCCA personnel to continue the tow to the individual's paddock. IMS personnel almost INSIST on a 'hard' connection to the vehicle being towed.

[mmi16]

At Homestead and Pitt this year, the tow drivers wanted to use a hard connection. When I asked to hold the rope instead, they acted like they'd never heard of that before. The driver at Homestead even turned me in to the SOC for "arguing" with him.

At Pitt, the driver tried to pull me twice from a 90+ degree angle. A hard connection would have pulled my car right over. Luckily I was able to let go of the rope and then explain that he needed to pull me from the front.

I know we are just another gig for many of the tow drivers and they are not specialists at towing race cars. Why can't the SCCA mandate no hard connections for formula cars?

Too many tracks are using their own on track emergency service personnel - NOT SCCA. SCCA Emergency services personnel know how to handle the cars raced in Club Racing.

[Dave Harmison]

“Turned in for arguing”.

Unfortunately, exactly what I’d expect. Damned if you insist on doing it right, potentially dead or injured if you don’t.