WTB: FF DB1 or Van Diemen mid 90's - West Coast

[fitz2816]

Looking for a FF for club level SCCA and maybe Vintage, and starting my search on the West Coast - I'm in So Cal. Interested in a decent DB1 or mid 90's Van Diemen, or comparable, and perhaps newer, but my budget is conservative at this side of $15k. Thought I'd start with any California based cars that someone is looking to get out of and expand the search from there. Would consider FF2000, but anything in my price range would limit me to Vintage, so probably will keep it simple and stick with FF, but who knows - like if someone has a rf95 FC at a bargain,... ok whatever.

I ran a Spec Ford back in the early 90's - RF80 which was a great car, but would like something more pointy and modern this time. Any advice on what years or features to stay away from i.e. VD monoshock, (it that's actually undesirable) would be appreciated.

I'm a noob on this forum so if PMs are best thing, feel free, etc.
Thanks!

[Richard Hybels]

My current bargain race car cost $11k after a couple of hours on track. The bargain race car before that cost $7500 before I got on track once.

[TimH]

LOVE my monoshock. Definitely not for sale.

[fitz2816]

LOVE my monoshock. Definitely not for sale.

Good to hear you like your monoshock - thought I read something negative a while ago so I'll have to do some research on that. To start off with I did find this promising little beauty.

[reidhazelton]

You will not find a faster car for the money (under $15k - all things being equal) than a 92/93 VD.

There is a great Vector for sale in the for sale section right now.

[TimH]

You will not find a faster car for the money (under $15k - all things being equal) than a 92/93 VD.
There is a great Vector for sale in the for sale section right now.

..says the guy who would be fast in a delivery van...

[ric baribeault]

My 92 monoshock was the fastest Ford at SVRA COTA in 2018 by a significant amount. They’re fast cars.

[fitz2816]

Thanks all for your replies, kind of hesitated when putting in the monoshock comment initially, but I'm glad I did, but meant no disrespect. Reading up on it and getting advice is always a good thing. A couple old posts regarding this, that I'm learning from or getting more confused, not sure which yet

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/8...nt-suspension/
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...-Van-Diemen-FC
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/1...-double-shock/

Now for another question, Swift DB1 vs VD 93 era. Swift with it's NACA ducts and rocker suspension vs the VD with small radiator side pods and pushrod suspension. Is there really a difference or should I just be looking for good car in either make and make sure which ever one is set up properly?

[Garey Guzman]

...Now for another question, Swift DB1 vs VD 93 era. Swift with it's NACA ducts and rocker suspension vs the VD with small radiator side pods and pushrod suspension. Is there really a difference or should I just be looking for good car in either make and make sure which ever one is set up properly?

Neither car will likely win an FRP pro race, even with the best prep and the hottest hot shoe.
Both will be fun to drive and great tools to learn setup and how chassis changes affect handling. Both will likely have a value similar to purchase price, when it's time to sell.

I was told to buy the best car I could afford (newest or recent winner or at least one recently at the sharp end of the grid). My first was a DB1, which I bought as a roller. A couple years later, I bought a DB6. Then I got a Zink Z16 so I could save the DB6 for Nationals but still run Regionals. Then I bought a March 719 so I could do Vintage. Then I..... nope, I'm not going to admit everything.

[tlracer]

I was told to buy the best car I could afford (newest or recent winner or at least one recently at the sharp end of the grid).

Excellent advice - buying the best car, closest to race-ready, you can afford is the way to go if you want to drive it.

By which I mean - buying a 'project' is great for engineering experience and satisfaction, but:

(a) it will cost you more, overall, and
(b) you will spend so much time getting things 'just right' that it will become a garage ornament!

[TimH]

My experience is that the older the car, the easier it is to drive at the limit. Partly because the limits are lower, but also because the vintage cars and even the Club Fords tend to have softer (more forgiving) suspensions. Once you get into DB1/RF9x/Vector territory you're talking something more responsive but a little trickier, and the difference from one to the other has more to do with how you fit (how big are your feet?) and the condition of that particular car. The advice above is good.

As for mono- vs. conventional shocks, the discussions you link go far over my head. All I can say is that after 3 years of fiddling I could finally force the Crossle' to do my will, but merely have to suggest what I want to the RF94. I was instantly 2 seconds/lap quicker. Almost as fast as a good driver in a Crossle'. Not nearly as fast as very good drivers in some vintage cars.

[stonebridge20]

You buy race cars for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1 It's beautiful and you just love to look at it.

#2 It's the fastest one you can afford.

[reidhazelton]

Like others have said, buy the best prepared, newest car you can afford. A well prepared DB1 will beat a basket case of a 01+ VD.

All things being equal, a 92/93 VD will beat a DB1. The DB1 will be easier to set up for sure, but again all things being equal, a 92/93 will win. In my opinion, the 92/93 VDs were better than 94-96, as good as the 97/98 VDs but leave a lot on the table compared the 2001+ VDs. I've driven good examples of all of them.

Also, at the limit a DB1 will be easier to drive. 92/93 tend to be "wiggly" where the DB1s and 97+ VDs are more "planted." A well maintained DB1 will be much easier to find than a well maintained 92/93. There are a lot of DB1s out there.

A well set up and driven FF will beat a poorly driven Mygale. FF still is heavily dependent on the driver. Find a good car, start there. When you find you are competitive with the newer stuff you can sell your DB1 or whatever you find for about what you paid for it and get a newer car.

[fitz2816]

Thanks All, exactly what I was looking for. In retrospect, back in the 90's when I last raced as a 20 something year old, I did follow the advice mentioned of finding a fast car for what I could afford, Spec Ford. Found a car that was a front runner previously, which happened to be the only local available one at the time, so I got lucky. Coming out of 125 shifter karts, I was reasonably quick, not the fastest, but quick, and put car on pole at Willow Springs my first race out and ran in the front group for the rest of the year. Always thought the car was ugly, but I loved it.

Now, almost 30 years later, just to get back into a decent car and race again at the club level, go through the learning curve of car setup and mechanics, and get tuned up as a driver, that in and of itself would be a victory. Not trying to go pro, not trying to outspend everybody or get sucked down a money pit, just trying to be content with driving again with a good car and being competitive as I can with the equipment I have. Wish me luck on that one.

Also thanks on the DB1 and RF9X differences - perfect. Lot of guys locally run the DB1 successfully although I would lean more towards the less antiquated VD pushrod suspension, but I'd be happy in either really.

[TimH]

I'd be happy in either really.

There you go..

But do be sure to check for space in the footbox before you choose.

[fitz2816]

Thanks Tim, I drove a DB1 for a school back in '93 and fit well. Thinking of getting back into shifter karts as a way back in. I know I can get a kart soon enough and if I can survive being melted down and rebuilt in the crucible of kart racing then I'll have earned my stripes again for a formula car. Went out to a local kart race this last weekend and was surprised to find 2 guys older than I am racing shifters, so I'm not totally crazy.

[fitz2816]

Bump for any west coast FFs out there. Anybody thinking of selling, let me know. Thanks!

[fitz2816]

Bump for also looking for later model year FF Van Diemens RF98 to RF05 ish or similarly competitive FFs - Honda or Kent for reasonable asking prices.

[fitz2816]

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. Picked up a RF97K from Arizona over the weekend and now have a FF in my garage. What am I, nuts?! Thanks to Apexer's helping me out, I was PM'd by an Arizona racer (names withheld to protect the innocent) who took the time to email me over several days dialing in on my interest and direction and then introduced me to a guy who was in the middle of a ground up on the '97 who had other presssing commitments, and I was able to buy an unadvertised car.

Car's a semi basket case, engine and trans and corners are off the car, so I have to figure out how to put all the pieces back together, but I've done it before - long ago on my previous car, so hopefully can figure it out, most likely with some help and guidance. Car has a fresh dyno time only Ivey, and rebuilt Penskes, bodywork that needs a lot of attention, and a chassis that looks real good. Fits me like a glove with just enough room to spare, and I'm a small guy.

Thanks to all to reached out to me, I do appreciate it. Now begins the journey. Might have to post a build thread if that's not been done to death. I'm sure I'll have posts on questions during the build, then comes the chassis tuning/setup. Only has gears in the gear box, no spares so I'll be having to collect a few for the different tracks, and figure out what I need. They mentioned there's a post somewhere on Apex with gear ratios for different tracks as a starting point. Time to get busy!

[Richard Hybels]

I bought a Crossle with a fresh motor in it a while back. Went south in an hour and needed a block and crank. Loyning bill was $5900 and labor , shipping etc another $4 k I guess.
My other car is a DB-6 Honda which will run for years with any luck.
I know somebody that used a $900 junk yard Honda motor and is faster than another guy I know that spent $8k on his Honda.
I hear Honda is out of it now but Fast Forward is picking it up. Pay now or pay more later with your Ford in my opinion.
Don’t substitute my judgement for yours.

[fitz2816]

I bought a Crossle with a fresh motor in it a while back. Went south in an hour and needed a block and crank. Loyning bill was $5900 and labor , shipping etc another $4 k I guess.
My other car is a DB-6 Honda which will run for years with any luck.
I know somebody that used a $900 junk yard Honda motor and is faster than another guy I know that spent $8k on his Honda.
I hear Honda is out of it now but Fast Forward is picking it up. Pay now or pay more later with your Ford in my opinion.
Don’t substitute my judgement for yours.

Thanks Richard, ok, so I'll bite and explore what it would take to convert, at the minimum for my own education. First off, my plan is to run the Kent. Sorry to hear about your 1 hour of engine life before the catastrophe, but I ran a Kent all season long back in '93 (actually a cross flow Cortina) so your example isn't, in my opinion and my own experience, and knowledge of others, indicative of the norm. But you do make a point on the Honda, many people have, and there seem to be two camps, and I would gladly run a Honda. I don't want to get into the pros and cons of Honda vs Kent, so let's take my example and surmise what it would take in numbers to convert to a Honda.
1. I would sell the Kent - Fresh dyno time only Ivey - for let's say $8G (Swag)
2. HPD stock crate engine listed on HPD for $3225.41 - needs all HPD conversion kit items
3. Have to buy all the engine components from FastForward and electrical components from HPD - electrical alone is $9015.42 not including tax
4. My Total spend estimation $17,340 pre tax - not including the sale of the Kent

Here is my estimate without the engine component price SWAGed at $3K- as I have no idea what Fast Forward is charging and how long these would be available, if someone does let me know: (and I'm sure I'm missing something as I just whipped this up)
Updated spreadsheet with HPD crate engine and and SWAG on engine conversion costs: (No I'm not converting to a Honda, but want to understand the numbers)

[teamwisconsin]

If you want to put a Honda in that 97 you’re going to be in it for way more than that. You’ll have to start by cutting the back of the car off at the rollhoop and building a new engine bay. 97’s aren’t like DB1’s or late model VD’s, it’s not a bolt-in conversion. Eric Langbein did a few 97’s 8-9 years ago back when Honda conversions were really happening, I don’t remember what it cost but pro work costs pro money and Eric is one of the best.

If you have a fresh Ivey, you are looking at an engine that will last you the better part of 5 years before you need to rebuild it. If you take the car SCCA racing on the west coast with the radials, the car can win as competition here isn’t that strong. If you take the car to SVRA on treads, the car can win easily. If you want to win the the Runoffs, this ain’t the car anymore unfortunately. Time has moved on.

IMO, don’t chop up a perfectly good 97 to put a Honda in it. It’s not worth the effort and expense. They are a bitchin racecar, great to drive and in my opinion the best looking car VD ever built.

[fitz2816]

IMO, don’t chop up a perfectly good 97 to put a Honda in it. It’s not worth the effort and expense. They are a bitchin racecar, great to drive and in my opinion the best looking car VD ever built.

I'm not seriously considering converting to a Honda but thought it would be a good exercise to run some numbers, and get feedback from helpful people such as yourself, to educate myself on the matter. Last thing I want to do now is get caught in a conversion quagmire. I'm running the Kent and I should be up and running in a couple months. Give it a couple years and they'll all want Mazdas by then, who knows. Thanks.

[Richard Hybels]

What I know compared to my friend Ethan could be put on the head of a pin so I’m glad I said don’t substitute my judgement for yours.
I have had 5 Ford powered FF’s since 1997 and only had the one blow on me so I do have some familiarity.
I’m racing at Sears Point this weekend and a Ford powered DB1 already left with a blown motor.

[fitz2816]

What I know compared to my friend Ethan could be put on the head of a pin so I’m glad I said don’t substitute my judgement for yours.
I have had 5 Ford powered FF’s since 1997 and only had the one blow on me so I do have some familiarity.
I’m racing at Sears Point this weekend and a Ford powered DB1 already left with a blown motor.

May the racing gods smile upon your Honda and it's electronic components and may they do the same upon my Kent engine block.
End of thread.