Helmets for Inclined Seating Position

[Chris Livengood]

My father and I have been doing some outings in our vintage DSR and plan to do more this year. It took some work on the seat to get everything to work ergonomically but I think we are getting close. The one obvious issue is that the rather inclined seating position means I have a really hard time looking far enough down to check my gages without pulling my helmet down. I basically can't see anything below the dash loop of the cage.

I attribute some of this to my rather clunky HVC helmet that honestly I have never liked. I have an Arai helmet that is still legal to run and will give it a shot the next time out. All around Arai helemts are much better units so perhaps it will allow for better ergonomics.

That said, anybody have a similar issue that they solved with a helmet (make, brand, model)? Also, hans devices? I am using HANS brand but wonder if there isn't something a bit easer to deal with in this seating position? Raising the seat position isn't really possible as we will run afoul the roll bar helmet clearance, we are already not exactly meeting spec despite having raised the roll bar 2" (max we can go without a roll bar redesign).

For those interested, here's the car;

[TimH]

HANS 20 or 30 degree? I switched to a NeckGen because it offers more flexibility in your seating position. You can then adjust the headrest as necessary.

You should be able to tell if the Arai is better just sitting in the garage.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

A few things come to mind:
Are you low enough in the car?
Does the helmet actually fit? If I understand correct fitment you should not be able to move it like you describe. That suggests you have a rounder head (Bell type) rather than the elongated.
Is the headrest not contacting squarely?

Just some things to think about.

[Chris Livengood]

HANS 20 or 30 degree? I switched to a NeckGen because it offers more flexibility in your seating position. You can then adjust the headrest as necessary.

You should be able to tell if the Arai is better just sitting in the garage.

I can't recall, I think it's whichever is more appropriate for formula cars. It was given to me though, so honestly, it could be either. I have a It's always been okay in formula cars, but the seating is quite reclined in this car. We managed to get the seat working with hans, it's comfortable and obstructing the helmet or hurting my shoulders.

I have a Defender as well, but it was always bulky and annoying so I never even considered try it. I will check out the current NecksGen setups, I did see at some point that they looked less bulky.

Unfortunately I am 50 miles from the race car and I didn't think to take the Arai during our most recent seat fitting (yesterday). Today being mother's day I'm not about to spend half the day away from home to try out the Arai, I will however try it Tuesday when we go to Nelson's.

I'll note, out of many helmets, they are all ready for replacement. So that partly drove me start this thread.

[Chris Livengood]

A few things come to mind:
Are you low enough in the car?
Does the helmet actually fit? If I understand correct fitment you should not be able to move it like you describe. That suggests you have a rounder head (Bell type) rather than the elongated.
Is the headrest not contacting squarely?

Just some things to think about.

To get lower in the car we would have to change some of the interior paneling. It's not out of the question, but there isn't much more to gain.

I never had fitment issues with the HJC helmet until this car. It worked in numerous race cars including other sports racers. The car is just small. That said, I don't see us gaining too much on the seating position, it's a lot like being in a laydown kart. I've never particularly liked the fit of Bell helmets, but it has been more than a decade since I've tried on one. It might be worth another try. Hopefully I will get to somewhere that is actively selling helmets so I can try some on.

[t walgamuth]

I had a similar problem in my VD. I added some padding between the shoulder blades which kept my shoulders the same distance from the wheel but brought my spine forward. Now I can dip my head and see the instruments.

[t walgamuth]

I had a similar problem in my VD.  I added some padding between the shoulder blades which kept my shoulders the same distance from the wheel but brought my spine forward.  Now I can dip my head and see the instruments.

After reading and thinking again to solve your problem you need less padding at the center of the back instead of more.

[Jerry Kehoe]

Having a fairly inclined cramped driving position in my formula car I found my NecksGen to be far better at giving more clearance than my old hans device. One of the big problems with many helmets in inclined seating is the lip at the bottom of the helmet interfering with the shoulder harness strap hardware and now the latest helmets have grown even larger in their physical size which does not help at all. With the same size helmet my 2010 version compared to my 2020 helmet is smaller by at least 1". Mounting the shoulder harness so the hardware is lower on your chest helps as well.

[Chris Livengood]

So buying a new helmet probably is going to make things worse, interesting.

For driving the car the position seems like it will be fine. We are on like the fourth revision of this seating position, it's not been an easy car to get seated in. It just makes seeing anything below the top of the steering wheel basically impossible.

The sightline is a few inches below the top of the fender wells, but given the helmet clearance constraints of the roll structure a more upright position similar to most modern sports racers/formula cars is impossible/unsafe for the time being.

I think the solution seems to be toughing this is out for the foreseeable future. Perhaps we can get raise the water temp/RPM just to make it a little easier.

[Nardi]

Have you sat in the car without the Hans on to look at the gauges? For me, the Hans totally changes my ability to look "down " at the gauges.

[cory mcleod]

I have a very reclined seating position in my car. Bell M8 works fine with a HANS.

Cory

[Chris Livengood]

Have you sat in the car without the Hans on to look at the gauges? For me, the Hans totally changes my ability to look "down " at the gauges.

Last time out the seat was so bad I chose not to run with the HANS. I don't recall if it helped view the gauges or not, the seat was just too bad and I was far too uncomfortable not notice much of anything. During the test fitting I only tried it with the HANS. Tomorrow I will have a try without it.

[Richard Hybels]

I’m can’t use Hans or Necksgen because neither will let me look down enough. I’m using the Simpson Hybrid thing now. I’m not crazy about it but could no5 race any other way. The price now is about half what I paid in 2012.

[Chris Livengood]

I tried both my Arai and HJC helmets and it comes down to the HANS just not working in this car. Without the HANS everything worked pretty well and I was actually quite comfortable.

I am going to checkout the Simpson setup.

[Messenger Racing]

I had similar issues. I used the necksgen and hans. I now use the Schroth flex model. In my case I am too tall to add another layer between my helmet and then headrest as well as having trouble looking down due to large helmet size interferring with some devices.

https://pitstopusa.com/i-23960196-sc...RoCQlMQAvD_BwE

[Chris Livengood]

I've been checking the Scroth out for years and have never pulled the trigger. The price certainly is right.

[Messenger Racing]

It is not lightweight like some of the others but I am very happy with the function. My crew find the latches harder to fasten but we just started leaving it on the helmet and no worries. Part of my problem is my helmet (2010) doesn't have the molded in nuts and the interior nut rotates if you keep the spring tension correct for the latches to work properly.

Still planning on sticking with it.

JM

[Chris Livengood]

I wanted to check back in on this and update the thread.

Greg Rice, being the cool dude that he is, loaned me his Simpson Hybrid Sport something or another. Long story short, it's barely noticeable in my car even with the very inclined driving position. I can look down, I can look left and right, and it would keep my head from popping off in a crash as it seems to attenuate when my head moves forward. Two thumbs up, it's way more comfortable than the traditional HANS brand setup in this application.

Some in car video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXHCEvebi-c

[halcyon]

I missed this thread before.

I recently switched my helmet to Schuberth. I have worn many brands in the past, and the Schuberth is by far the best for comfort, visibility, air flow/cooling, etc. At $2000, it's not cheap, but it's worth every penny. For reference, I my last helmet was a Stilo. There's no comparison between the Stilo and the Schuberth.

For HANS, I have a 10 and 30 degree HANS. I use the 10 degree for cars where I sit up right and the 30 degree for my formula cars where I am very reclined. The 10 degree is out of production, so may be hard to find. If starting over, I would consider the Simpson Hybrid. It is FIA rated and offers some side-to-side protection in addition to the front-back motion for HANS.

[Chris Livengood]

My current helmet is a carbon HJC. I have no idea the model. It's a terrible helmet. I'd never buy another one, or even a helmet made by HJC. All of the Arai helmets I have had have been fantastic and since I am up for a new lid I will be getting an Arai again.

I have tried on both Stilo and Schuberth and have seriously considered buying both. I just don't like either. I didn't like the HJC when I bought it, but it was an okay helmet at the right time. It turns out that it's a **** helmet, but it was the right time. Helmets of course are very personal, so to each their own. I do look forward to getting a new Arai.

Anyways, the Simpson BDSM strappy thing works pretty well. It takes some practice getting into it, but once you are in it is sweet.

[David Clubine]

Now that the seating position is sorted, can we get more pics of the car? It looks like a really cool piece!

[Chris Livengood]

I am looking at this thread and thinking that I don't even know if I know the meaning of "incline." I'm afraid I may have used it incorrectly in this thread title?

Anyways, yes, photos.
































My father built the car in 1973 and it hung on the wall of his garage from about 1993 to 2016. Then we got it down and restored it.

[David Clubine]

That is really neat. I bet it's tons of fun!

Thanks for the pics.

[Chris Livengood]

It's been entirely too much fun. The car is going faster than it has ever gone, we went like 6 seconds faster at Nelson Ledges than it did when my father won the race in '75. We have like another 6 seconds left in the thing, if not more. We keep breaking stuff though, every time we make a jump in pace more stuff breaks. It's been a bit of a struggle in that sense.

[tlracer]

Having used a HANS since they first came on the market (I was racing in a series where they were mandated), I plan to try the Simpson Hybrid so it's good to read real-world comments about it.

The car looks fantastic - I'm seeing Shadow DN4 and Lola T310 influences there?

[Chris Livengood]

Yes, very heavily influenced by Can Am. My father has some sketches with wings that were modeled after cars of the era. And in fact the rear of the body work was originally built with the the necessary structural supports incorporated into it to accommodate a wing, so it may be something we explore.

Of course DSR was a good bit cheaper than Can Am and since he had just been released from the Airforce at the end of the Vietnam war, he wasn’t exactly flush with extra cash. So DSR it was.

[problemchild]

Yes, very heavily influenced by Can Am. My father has some sketches with wings that were modeled after cars of the era. And in fact the rear of the body work was originally built with the the necessary structural supports incorporated into it to accommodate a wing, so it may be something we explore.

Of course DSR was a good bit cheaper than Can Am and since he had just been released from the Airforce at the end of the Vietnam war, he wasn’t exactly flush with extra cash. So DSR it was.

Cool pics. I did have a fashion question though. Was everyone wearing green t-shirts and green "cords"? St Patrick's day? Or have those old pics just turned the blue jeans green over time? I am sure Dave is thrilled to see his little boy drive the car.

[Chris Livengood]

It is a curious amount of green, so I dug deeper.

More green pants.



Two green pairs of pants.



Also, the Grumman van that we made our trailer out of, well it was blue-green.



It seems like people in the 70's were obsessed with green. I wasn't alive then, so I can't explain it.

[DanW]

It is a curious amount of green, so I dug deeper.

It seems like people in the 70's were obsessed with green. I wasn't alive then, so I can't explain it.

Avocado green (all 200 shades) were all the rage then...