What to buy and why

[Sean Maisey]

Things seem a little stagnant here on the forum, so I thought I'd bring up an old topic that is still relevant today...

I got a call last week from a young guy who has been road racing motorcycles for several years. He is getting older (not relative to most of us at the ripe old age of 27) but sees the wisdom of trading in two wheeled racing for 4 wheels. He is shopping around for a SCCA class and is having a hard time making a choice. He tells me he is primarily interested in 'purpose built' race cars, with open wheeled cars being his preference, but he is looking hard at DSR because of his M/C background.

Now to the discussion topic at hand. Of the available options, what would YOU recommend and why? There are some real problems with most of the choices available today.

My Take:

FF: Pro - Close (but very sparse) competition, relatively cheap chassis.
Con - Ezpensive engine maint., hunting for scarce parts.
FC: Pro - Lots of good close competition in some divisions, stable chassis.
Con - Engine parts getting scarce, rebuild costs climbing, short engine life.
FM: Pro - Cheap to operate once seal updates done.
Con - 1984 Reynard inspired technology, orphaned by Mazda, 13B end of life.
FA: Pro - Fast/Sexy/Cool
Con - Engine life equal to attention span of an ADD kid, fortune to maintain.
FSCCA: Pro - Equal Chassis, fast car (esp. w/new clutch and FI package) cool look.
Con - Rise in price to about $40k virtually assures Shelby Can-Am future, $$$parts
FV: Pro - Very close competition, stable chassis and engine rules.
Con - circa 1945 motor is getting expensive, old tech., little attraction to new blood.
F500: Pro - Close racing, much speed/$, relatively low costs.
Cons - No suspension, no gears, little translation to 'real' race cars.
DSR Pro - F1 like sounds, Sequential Gearbox, Speed/$, Sexyness
Con - National car is now $50-60k, runoffs win requires 3-4 $8k motors, reliability
CSR Pro - Atlantic level speed + DSR advantages...
Con - Class likely to lose National status in 2005, very expensive to compete...
S2000 Pro/Con - See FC
Zetec Pro - Low operating costs, cheap engines last forever, equal competition
Con - Uncompetitive in FA - no good place to race other than Pro series
SRF Pro - Cheap and abundant, relatively equal
Con - Clearly abandoned by SCCA in favor of the Van Diemen cars.

So if someone handed you a check for $30k and said "go SCCA racing tomorrow" what would you do?

I think the answer to this question is pretty critical to the future of purpose built race cars in the SCCA. Our regionals and drivers schools are dominated by Spec Mazdas and IT7s. If we want to maintain the sports racing and formula car tradition, we must appeal to the new membership. At the moment it is hard to articulate to a new member where to invest their money and time.

If someone offer to buy up my stuff tomorrow, I think I might go to local circle track racing personally...

Sean

[Bruce Williams]

I approached this decision for the first time about two years ago and I chose to purchase a new (and completely untested) FSCCA car. As we all know, that deal was seriously flawed with a poor transmission choice and high parts prices. I bailed on the FSCCA car and went with a Formula Mazda which has proven to be a complete blast! I do, however, agree about its dated technology and looks. Each time I fly off the track or get plowed by another car the FM appeal again rises…it’s cheap and easy to fix! It is also not prone to value train damage when I miss a shift. If only it looked like a Zetec….

Formula Fords and Formula continentals are very cool but many of them are starting to show their age. Are engine replacements/rebuilds as common as once a year? If so, that hurts the appeal. Zetec fixes this issue but introduces another (class).

I like the DSR/CSR cars but I worry about the cost of engine maintenance. I have seen a number of Radicals with blown engines. The sport racers definitely look cool and will find a lot of buyer when they get a more reliable engine package. Have you seen the new V-8 Radical?...although I will never buy an untested/unsorted race car again. How about a rotary engine in a Stohr, Maloy or Radical chassis?

My choice would be a FF Zetec if only they had a national class to run in. I might be tempted to run the run in FS regionals only but that restricts its use. It is a great looking, high tech, and reliable package.

Choices, choices, choices

As Mark Rodrigues says, “We don’t all chase the same girl.”

[Rob Klein]

With the introduction of lower cost aftermarket parts for the Pinto, how do you view the engine costs increasing? We have 3 engines and have only had one rebuild per year @3200.00-3500.00/ rebuild. We could really run the team with 1 engine but elect not to. @ 3200.00-3500.00/ year to run, I find that very inexpensive. All other costs for most classes are relative. i.e. entry fee's, tires, test days etc...

Last year we ran 7 Nationals and every test day held with the National. Ran a test day and the Runoffs and finished 7th.

If there is a cost to consider to be competative in Nationals, look at the tire bills in most classes to be competative. Running in CenDiv, the FC class is very competative, to run up front, you have to learn more about the chassis than the engine.

I can see CSR and DSR costing almost as much as an Atlantic budget for the year.

FF seems to be slightly on the increase over the past 2 years in CenDiv. Knowledge of each chassis is a bit different but there are competent people out there that are willing to help.

We started in FC in 2000 without ever running any type car on a track in our life, and wouldn't change a thing about the class.

I believe the biggest key to maitaining budget and being a competative National team is surrounding yourself with proper "people".

Just my view

Rob

[formulasuper]

Hey guys, If a new racer wants motorcycle powered racecars, the sports racer Radicals use 1000cc up to the 1500cc stroked Hayabusa. Reliable strong powerplants with transmission included.
Myself? I like open wheeled cars, motorcycle powerplants...... Formula S. Have a Ralt RT-5 SuperVee, soon to be Ralt/Suzuki Formula S. With an 850 lbs min. weight & unlimited everything. Whee! This class is wide open guys, show us what you can build, (not what's in your wallet).

[dereklola]

"might go local circle track racing"

I still recall the conversation with a near neighbor who ran at our local speedway -
"You mean you have to pay those sort of entry fees and you don't get anything back at the end of the evening?"

Different strokes...........................

[Dave Belz]

If somebody gave me $30k to go SCCA club racing for the first time, I wouldn't spend it all on my first car. I'd take the time look for the best value (class of car with best MPH/durability) and with reasonable car counts within the local division. Buy a reasonably priced and reasonably competetive chassis by local standards. And then keep a big portion of my funds in reserve for future development (if I liked it) or class move (if I didn't).

I'd not overlook the regeional classes with reasonable car counts. FM started as a regional only class, and most divisions have more regional races on the calendar than nationals. I can't see how that's restrictive. In addition to FS, there is CFF and CFC, both usually have a harder spec tire which takes care of your tire budget for a year or more while you learn the car (you can add that amount to your future development reserve fund). From CFF and CFC, you can learn the chassis and engine technology and then move into a more competetive car as your performance and budget allow.

FV cost me the least to get into but was the least intuitive to set up properly and the hardest to learn to drive fast.

CFF was an absolute blast, and much more forgiving to drive. Unfortunately, I had so much fun that it also bit me with the upgrade bug.

FC realistically came to my attention when I was looking to update to a newer FF. The motors are not as fragile as some would have you believe (see Rob's comment above, and other national/Runoffs competitors elsewhere on this forum), and the speed to dollar ratio is about as good as it gets. It promises to be the most complex toy that I've ever owned and I'm looking forward to learning it and getting out again next season.

S2000 is where I learned basic racecar set up when I crewed for the same friend who recommended that I look into FC. It was the first real racecar that I ever drove, and had me looking forward to climbing back up the class ladder to a 'modern' chassis for a long time.

Have fun!
Dave

[Daryl DeArman]

Dave has made some great points.

In my opinion the speed to cost ratio is irrelevant. I want to race something I can afford to have the absolute no excuse car and race it often in large fields. To me it is about the race not the ride. Further there is a big distinction that needs to be made: are we talking $30K for a car or $30K for the car and expenses for the year?

ON EDIT--not sure why I suggested putting it in karting terms...must have thought he road raced karts not bikes.

Don't know enough about bike classes and their subscription rates to make a good analogy.

[Skid]

I'm in a similar evaluation process. Have raced spec Rx-7's and want to move to a faster, purpose built, economical and well-populated class.

FM looks real attractive but I'd prefer closed wheel. But I see a real gap in the SCCA line-up for a quick, economical, "spec" sportsracer. My ideal would be DSR with a spec largely stock m/c or rotary engine OR an updated SRF.

RE the SRF's future -- I can't imagine even the SCCA would have such little business acumen as to abandon its largest class and gravy ticket for Enterprises. A newer engine at say 140hp and some other tweaks and the class is good for another 20 yrs.

[EYERACE]

I've seen a Swift with a rotary as FA....whew! Incredible beautiful car, fast and more reliable engined than most anything else in FA. Perhaps someone at Formula Cars East has an idea where it is these days

[Sean Maisey]

Great comments all,

First, let me further define the desires of the guy I talked to. He wants to compete at the National level with a chance to run up front at the Runoffs. He has friends running Grand-Am and World Challenge and has aspirations to show them that he can compete at their level. So we are definitely talking about competitive National-level racing here.

Second, I agree with Dave's post if you are new to racing and the SCCA. I started out in an old F440 and graduated to CF then FC than National FF and so on myself. I still marvel at how little I understood when I started ("If I only knew what I know now then...")

Third, I admire anyone who can maintain a competitive National-level FF or FC program for $3000-3500 in rebuild costs per year. The last season I ran FF was 2000. I owned two full engines and a third head. I ran about 6 Nationals and spent nearly $10,000 in maintenance costs (a $5400 rebuild that required new pistons and sleeves, a $3300 refresh and one $800 head rebuild/reflow). Obviously, you can have better (and worse) years. By contrast, my costs for my Zetec this year are literally <$100 for the K&N filter cleaning kit, oil and an oil filter element. This with 4 Nationals plus the Runoffs...

Finally, my point in starting this post is to engage the greater racing community in a debate over why the SCCA world is skewing so heavily to the Spec Miata/RX-7 world and what we can do to bring more new blood into 'real race cars'. To a man(or woman), every one I have known who has driven an IT type car and a Formula or Sports racer has vastly perferred the 'real racecars'. The problem is that most of our class formulas are too stagnant and look unattractive to outsiders.

The initial success of the FSCCA concept should be a lesson to us all. Before the gearbox fiaso and when they were fairly cheap, they were seen as very attractive and sold quite well. The up and coming generation of car nuts is not interested in rockers, push-rods, lapping valves, or tuning carbs. They want modern alloy multi-valve engines and sequential gear boxes. The stuff they see on TV is what gets them interested.

Honestly, what kind of car do you drive every day. Does it have 2 valve heads and a carb.? Should your race car be more mundane than your daily driver?? Personally, I don't think so...

Sean

[dc]

$30k to spend? That limits your choices right there. For club racing, I'd do one of two things. My first choice is a '99 to '01 VD Continental with a Quicksilver or Elite Pinto. You can put it on the front row of the RunOffs without mortgaging the house, but it would cost you a lot more than $30k to get it there. I'd be utterly happy to campaign a car like that on a Regional to National level. The class is huge and you'll always have someone to race with (depending on the region).

My second choice to stretch $30k the best way into a RunOffs appearance would be to buy a 20-year old Swift DB-1. I probably will someday when my iife settles down, too. Then again, I'm not looking to climb the ladder, either.

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I don't think there are many open-wheel classes that you could do for $30,000 a year and run up front (inlcuding the car). A new Zetec FC/F2000/FA is a gorgeous car, but until there is a class for them or you want to go race in the Pro series, I can't say that would be a high choice for me. I don't like racing in 2-car fields.

Formula Mazda is a strong class, but I can't get past the looks of the older car. Something about the shocks hanging out there in the wind reminds me of our old '71 Merlyn FF. However, the new FM is very sexy, just no place they will fit in SCCA club just yet.

Same for our beloved FSCCA. Gorgeous car. Looks great on the track. Too many political issues with the whole thing for me. The price seems to keep rising, too.


Hmmm, those old Mark Windecker Super Vee photos have stirred up some old feelings. Maybe an old Ralt RT4 would be a neat choice. Then again, who will you race against, new Swift Toyota Atlantics? S2000 has always been one of my favorite classes, but again, you face car counts lower than the number of tires on your car. Same issues as an FC, but without the competition on a regular basis.


I donno. If I had $30,000 in my pocket to go racing? I'd buy a late model VD FC with a Pinto and race every weekend. If I wanted to run right up at the top of the RunOffs, I might think about sinking that cash into a good "prep shop" program like Andersen/Walko, St. Clair or Liberty Motorsports.

Then again, $30,000 would just about take care of the new driveway, a fence for the backyard, the remainder of our living room and all of our landscaping.



I think I'd better hold off on the DB-1.




d

[Daryl DeArman]

Sean,

I think for 30K/year including the car, several nationals and the rub-offs competitively you are severely limiting your options.

FV and F500 pretty darn serious effort and shouldn't have any excuses for not having the best available...it will be up to the driver.

FF...you are already making concessions, perhaps few enough that they could be overcome, but you will be leaving something on the table.

As far as the dying of the 'real race car classes': I raced karts, CDCRA, ITA, EP, Club Ford and FVee (in that order). I much prefer an open wheel car for the connection between the driver and the car. However, if the fields in my region in FF or FV were tiny I'd jump in a SM or IT7 in a heartbeat. Remember to me it is about the race not the ride. Evidence my transition from a Crossle 32 Club Ford to a FVee. I don't look down my nose at anyone out there racing what appeals to them, for whatever their reasons.

I think the days that the SCCA attracted the young up and coming hot shot with the desire to become pro and the funding/support to do so in a 'real race car' are long behind us. That young guy/girl has too many other options outside SCCA Club racing which are more attractive.

[MGBystrom]

Sean:

For the 2003 season my son (20yrs) did exactly what your acquantance is looking to do.

After a year in karts, we did a good drivers school (Derek Daly) and went with a great prep shop for Formula Mazda.

After an early double regional to get his National license, Noah proceeded to compete in six FM Nationals in Cendiv. We ended up purchasing the car, and with the support of the prep shop (Pro-One) Noah finished in the top five in all the events finished, including the June Sprints dispite a lot of pro drivers there. He qualified, and competed at the runoffs that year.

Total cost.....excess of $90,000.00!!!

Tires were a huge expense, but I will say, we would have had to withdraw from at least 3 events if not for the resources of the prep shop.

Included in that cost was a complete rebuild and seal job, and not keeping the dirty side down on T2 at IRP cost another $12,000.

After selling the car our net cost was approx. $70,000.

In '04 we switched to FSCCA to run pro-series...that didn't. work out so well, but after driving the FSCCA car Noah has no interest in returning to FM dispite our desire to run in large class fields (we averaged about 12 cars/event.)

Now, we are looking for a "stable" national open wheel class with fields as large as our experience with FM without going back to that.....sigh.

Summary, I doubt. 30 large can get you to runoffs unless you rent, get a lot of points in a few races and sleep on the ground.

Mike

[Sean Maisey]

Guys,

I wasn't too clear, but what I meant to say was what kind of car would you buy in the $30,000 price range (+/- several thousand). I was assuming (in my head) when I wrote my original post that truck, trailer and operating budget were another matter.

So, in other words if you own a car today, say a FC, and someone offered you $30k for the car and all your spare FC/Pinto stuff and you were faced with starting all over again in any class (SCCA or other) with no vested interest, what would you do, and why? Or conversely, if you are looking to get into road racing and have saved up some money to buy a car, same questions.

I picked the theoretical $30k, because that seems to be the upper limit on sales prices for most used FF/FC/S2000/FM/Zetecs. So assume that that is (exotic FA and CSR cars aside) the natural price ceiling for our kind of racing. Also, it seems to me that historically, when new cars rise much above this level sales seriously slack off (recent Van Diemens FF/FCs, Fran Ams, Radical SRs, and FSCCA are all excellent examples of this phenomenon).

As for operating budgets, I realize that mileage here will vary drastically. I personally do this as a hobby. I have a pretty good job, but I am by no means rich. I try to keep my operating costs in the $10-15,000/season range. For me this figure includes all car maintenance and operating costs (rebuilds, crash damage, tires, entry fees, travel, gas, etc...). I try to stretch my dollars by doing as much of my own work as prudent (I know better than to do my own engine, trans. or shock rebuilds). On the high end, you can always spend a lot more money on something to go faster...

Sean

[JakeL]

Hey all -

Not sure if this is super helpful specifically to your friend, but I was in a similar position - wanting to move into 'real race cars' from having raced normal cars for a while.

Two months ago, I had $30,000 to spend. I wanted something faster than my Z06, that would look good, and not be too fragile.

So, I spent $25,000 and bought a Radical DSR. Good looks, good sounds, fast, and strong enough that it won't cost thousands to fix any time somebody touches me. The great sounds from the motor and the fun sequential shifting let you pretend for just a little while that you're Schuey. Sure, it's not front of the pack in DSR, but it's 80% of the speed for 20% of the cost.

Compared to the life/cost/power of other engines in other SCCA classes, the choice was fairly straightforward for me. My only worry is how long the R1 will last, but it's not a huge deal to find another junker, or to swap motors if that makes sense.

Perhaps for $30,000, he could pick up a Cheetah and go racing with that, and still have a fair amount of money leftover. Your dad sure has done well with his, even if he's moving on.

just my mostly valueless $0.02,

-Jake