What do we do if Honda is getting out of the game?

[alangbaker]

I spoke with Vinny Hernandez (Commercial Motorsports, Honda Performance Development), and sadly, the rumours appear to be true.

He told me that Honda is no longer making some of the parts we need to keep running the L15A7 Honda Fit engine in our FFs.

He also said that the SCCA was supposed to be working to find another... ...fabricator(?) to take over the job of making parts such as the bespoke dry sump pan.

So my question is... ...well, it's the subject line.

[socaljeff3798]

So how long was honda in the game?
I am just curious?

[Stan Clayton]

Is that the same Honda and HPD that rode to the FF rescue a dozen years ago with the explicit promise they were in it for the long haul. That they weren't a love you and leave you chav like Ford, who up and bailed on the class in its hour of need?

Was it those guys?

Asking for a friend.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Is HPD going away?

I suspect that pure ICE is no longer in Honda's game plan.
That said.... they are bailing on the F1 hybrid.

Are they bailing on Indy and it's future hybrid too?

[reidhazelton]

Is that the same Honda and HPD that rode to the FF rescue a dozen years ago with the explicit promise they were in it for the long haul. That they weren't a love you and leave you chav like Ford, who up and bailed on the class in its hour of need?

Was it those guys?

Asking for a friend.

It was the same HPD that told me at the Runoffs at Road America the year they brought the DB1 out, that this had nothing to do with Honda. It was just done by three guys who work for Honda and love FF. Yeah - three guys on their own purchased tooling for castings and made their own ECU. That was my rub from the get go - the false story.

But, to HPD's credit, they stuck around longer than I expected even after it was clear their ladder system didn't pan out. They could have bailed 6 or 7 years ago but they stayed in it.

[Daryl DeArman]

Is that the same Honda and HPD that rode to the FF rescue a dozen years ago with the explicit promise they were in it for the long haul. That they weren't a love you and leave you chav like Ford, who up and bailed on the class in its hour of need?

Was it those guys?

Asking for a friend.

A dozen years ago and a grand total of how many kits sold? They were in it for the long haul as long as it made sense.

Worried about a dry sump pan? I'm sure Peterson, Canton, Baker, et al. will fabricate as many as you need.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Wow, I wonder just how many people are having trouble keeping fingers off keyboards at this unexpected and shocking news. I am sure no one could have seen this coming.

[Lotus7]

If 2021 racing is Covid-hit as hard as 2020 was, (hard to predict this early), it won't surprise me to see Honda drop F4/FR as well.

[alangbaker]

All snarky comments aside, I just received an email from the SCCA:

You heard correctly. Honda is no longer supplying those parts. The SCCA is working with vendors as we speak to come up with a plan to fabricate parts. We have yet to nail something down. As soon as we do there will definitely be an announcement and communication regarding the plan.

And I emailed Erik Oseth at Quicksilver and he replied first:

We are currently having parts made to solve this issue. It will be about about 6 months.

Then:

Thats fine we are making them with Fast Forward who makes all of our zetec parts.

[cory mcleod]

Also announced: Mazda is leaving IMSA prototype racing to focus on grassroots motorsports.......

[stonebridge20]

I'm biting my tongue.

[OneWayOut]

A dozen years ago and a grand total of how many kits sold?

Maybe they shouldn't have sold the kit for $15k. Sell just the engine adapter and shaft for $1000 and I bet a lot more VDs would have Honda power right now.

You knew it was going under when they took the prices off the publicly available HPD website.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe they shouldn't have sold the kit for $15k. Sell just the engine adapter and shaft for $1000 and I bet a lot more VDs would have Honda power right now.

Where's the requirement to buy a kit for $15K? Feel free to make a hundred or so engine adapters and the requisite input shafts, sell them for $1K each and see how that works out.

It's not the price point of the kit that prevented lots of kits from being sold. It's the fact the FF market in USA is tiny and largely inactive. Those that were very active overwhelmingly switched to Honda because they can do math.

[reidhazelton]

Those that were very active overwhelmingly switched to Honda because they can do math.

Or we parked the cars - because we can do math.

[Stan Clayton]

All snarky comments aside, I just received an email from the SCCA:

And I emailed Erik Oseth at Quicksilver and he replied first:

Then: Thats fine we are making them with Fast Forward who makes all of our zetec parts.

Yeah, I just talked to a "usually reliable source" at Fast Forward, who said, "I can't comment officially that we are part of the solution, but we're part of the solution."

[alangbaker]

Yeah, I just talked to a "usually reliable source" at Fast Forward, who said, "I can't comment officially that we are part of the solution, but we're part of the solution."

As long as they're not part of the problem.

[scott fairchild]

So how long was honda in the game?
I am just curious?

50+ years according to some

[TimH]

I don't think Ivey is going away, and there are still Ford blocks out there.

[Jnovak]

Is that the same Honda and HPD that rode to the FF rescue a dozen years ago with the explicit promise they were in it for the long haul. That they weren't a love you and leave you chav like Ford, who up and bailed on the class in its hour of need?

Was it those guys?

Asking for a friend.

Just a note for those who think that Ford is not supportive of club racing. You are mistaken, when Honda announced that they were getting into FF club raceing i was the NASCAR Manager for Ford Racing. I went to the director of Ford Racing and gave him a very brief overview of the situation and within a couple of weeks the engine engineer who had managed the first FF engine project designed new casting molds for the Formula Ford 1600 FF engine. That engineers name is Mose Nowland and he is retired but you can send him a thank you email às soon as i get his address you also might want to send an email to Dan Davis who was the director for Ford Racing at the time as he made the call to make in hàppen!

[alangbaker]

Just a note for those who think that Ford is not supportive of club racing. You are mistaken, when Honda announced that they were getting into FF club raceing i was the NASCAR Manager for Ford Racing. I went to the director of Ford Racing and gave him a very brief overview of the situation and within a couple of weeks the engine engineer who had managed the first FF engine project designed new casting molds for the Formula Ford 1600 FF engine. That engineers name is Mose Nowland and he is retired but you can send him a thank you email às soon as i get his address you also might want to send an email to Dan Davis who was the director for Ford Racing at the time as he made the call to make in hàppen!

Note the order of events, Jay

1. [Unmentioned but germane] Ford was doing nothing more to support Formula Ford in North America and hadn't been for a long time.
2. Off their own bat, someone investigated a potential replacement for the Kent and got it done.
3. Then Ford started a project to recast an improved 711 Kent block.
4. That block arrived sometime around September 2010.

Jay, please understand: you had to CALL FORD to make this happen, and we're glad they did it.

But ask yourself if it would have happened at all if the Fit engine had never been homologated.

The automotive landscape has changed immensely since FF debuted, and manufacturers no longer make the same engine (essentially the same engine) for decades and decades. Of course it would be better if Honda carried on supporting what they got themselves involved in starting, but I wouldn't depend on Ford to keep making those blocks forever, either.

[Daryl DeArman]

Or we parked the cars - because we can do math.

Correct. I should have said "are very active" instead of "were very active".

[Stan Clayton]

Just a note for those who think that Ford is not supportive of club racing. You are mistaken, when Honda announced that they were getting into FF club raceing i was the NASCAR Manager for Ford Racing. I went to the director of Ford Racing and gave him a very brief overview of the situation and within a couple of weeks the engine engineer who had managed the first FF engine project designed new casting molds for the Formula Ford 1600 FF engine. That engineers name is Mose Nowland and he is retired but you can send him a thank you email às soon as i get his address you also might want to send an email to Dan Davis who was the director for Ford Racing at the time as he made the call to make in hàppen!

Thank you, Jay, but as is usually the case, there are two sides to this story. My side is as the CRB member tasked with getting assistance from Ford to resume production of the Kent blocks. For three years from 2006 to 2008 SCCA tried repeatedly to get Ford to make more blocks and were always told no. It was only after SCCA approached Honda and signed the Fit engine deal that Ford suddenly (from my perspective) woke up to the threat Honda posed to their namesake class. Corporate whined for two years about the Honda deal, but did ultimately come through with the finest Kent block on earth. So give me Moshe's email addy and I will send him a thank you note.

[reidhazelton]

It was only after SCCA approached Honda and signed the Fit engine deal

SCCA asked Honda to develop an engine for FF, or Honda asked SCCA to let them into FF?

[Lotus7]

Let me preface this with "Yes, I have a seriously vested interest in the subject, probably more than most, as I make my living working in FF/FC/FA/F4",

but all this never-ending Ford vs Honda, Zetec vs Pinto, Spec-tire vs open, blah blah blah

I was at the COTA Super Tour last weekend, working on door cars as it turns out, and couldn't help noticing that there were what, only four FF and a single FC ?

if you guys don't get your cars out of the garage and to the track pronto, none of this is going to matter one iota !!!!!!!!!!!

rant over, sorry

[Stan Clayton]

SCCA asked Honda to develop an engine for FF, or Honda asked SCCA to let them into FF?

Yes. ;^)

[John Robinson II]

. Those that were very active overwhelmingly switched to Honda because they can do math.

I have been active in FF or CF almost 20 years and can do math very well.
Started with a Ford, was one of the first to convert to Honda, converted a second car. Went back to Ford because I race a Formula FORD.
Disappointed to hear that HPD is leaving because no one makes a formula FORD anymore with a Kent. If the Dougs are making replacement parts, chances are they will be better than original. I understand that the replacement ecu is a production part. I can now hear more whispers of people messing with things becoming louder and more frequent. No longer going to have to watch for people running with rain light on during dry sessions.....

John

[stonebridge20]

if you guys don't get your cars out of the garage and to the track pronto, none of this is going to matter one iota !!!!!!!!!!!

rant over, sorry

We all did get our cars out of the garage Ian. We all went vintage racing.

[cliff]

John
to be clear, the rain light only works well with a double throw switch.
everyone knows that...come on????

[Bob Wright]

At the end of the day, the problem has to be solved if the class is to survive (I have a dog in this fight and I certainly want it to survive). If Fast Forward has a solution, ok. If its at a price equal to or more than the original HPD kit...maybe there's an alternate solution. There are other motors out there (after all, its just the lump at the back of the car). What about the motor in the SRF Gen 3? That's a 1600cc Ford Sigma and is well known. Or Chevy Ecotec? Durotec? What motors are in FF's in other parts of the world? Maybe its a good idea not to try to re-invent the wheel but find a solution that is the easiest and most economical available that has already been proven?

[alangbaker]

At the end of the day, the problem has to be solved if the class is to survive (I have a dog in this fight and I certainly want it to survive). If Fast Forward has a solution, ok. If its at a price equal to or more than the original HPD kit...maybe there's an alternate solution. There are other motors out there (after all, its just the lump at the back of the car). What about the motor in the SRF Gen 3? That's a 1600cc Ford Sigma and is well known. Or Chevy Ecotec? Durotec? What motors are in FF's in other parts of the world? Maybe its a good idea not to try to re-invent the wheel but find a solution that is the easiest and most economical available that has already been proven?

I think we're looking forward to a time when having to switch from one engine to the next is going to be more frequent. It's just a fact of how car manufacturers work these days that engine designs aren't kept around for nearly as long as they used to be.

Any solution for FF in NA (North America) has to acknowledge the reality that we need to keep parity with the Kent; as best as can be done, anyway.

Fortunately, with modern engines and ECUs, that at least is less of a problem than it would have been with carburetors and points ignition.

[Garey Guzman]

At the end of the day, the problem has to be solved if the class is to survive (I have a dog in this fight and I certainly want it to survive). If Fast Forward has a solution, ok. If its at a price equal to or more than the original HPD kit...maybe there's an alternate solution. There are other motors out there (after all, its just the lump at the back of the car). What about the motor in the SRF Gen 3? That's a 1600cc Ford Sigma and is well known. Or Chevy Ecotec? Durotec? What motors are in FF's in other parts of the world? Maybe its a good idea not to try to re-invent the wheel but find a solution that is the easiest and most economical available that has already been proven?

Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with the Kent. I would think that a brand new motor would be less than the price of the Honda kit. And there still seems to be plenty of parts around for the few hundred active drivers.

Adding another engine option would, in my opinion, only dilute the class.

[stonebridge20]

Maybe its a good idea not to try to re-invent the wheel but find a solution that is the easiest and most economical available that has already been proven?

Lol !

[alangbaker]

Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with the Kent. I would think that a brand new motor would be less than the price of the Honda kit. And there still seems to be plenty of parts around for the few hundred active drivers.

Adding another engine option would, in my opinion, only dilute the class.

I'm sure you're right that a brand new Kent engine is a little less than the kit to convert from a Honda...

...however, the difference might not be all that much—the block alone is now $1,825...

...but what about the next engine?

And then there's the care and feeding.

I ran a Kent from 2013-2017, and I missed a lot of races (or was uncompetitive in them) due to issues keeping a Kent up and running. From 2018, I started running a Honda, and I've done nothing but make sure it had oil and water.

The reality is that it is extremely unlikely that the new Kent block would have happened if the Honda hadn't been homologated in the class, and based on past performace, I don't think you can count on Ford to keep making a niche market block forever.

So I think the time is NOW to start working on the plan for the next engine.

[Peter Olivola]

SCCA asked Honda to develop an engine for FF, or Honda asked SCCA to let them into FF?

As someone who was peripherally involved with the Honda deal, Honda brought a proposal to SCCA.

[Garey Guzman]

I'm sure you're right that a brand new Kent engine is a little less than the kit to convert from a Honda...

...however, the difference might not be all that much—the block alone is now $1,825...

...but what about the next engine?

And then there's the care and feeding.

I ran a Kent from 2013-2017, and I missed a lot of races (or was uncompetitive in them) due to issues keeping a Kent up and running. From 2018, I started running a Honda, and I've done nothing but make sure it had oil and water.

The reality is that it is extremely unlikely that the new Kent block would have happened if the Honda hadn't been homologated in the class, and based on past performace, I don't think you can count on Ford to keep making a niche market block forever.

So I think the time is NOW to start working on the plan for the next engine.

Sorry you had those issues with your Kent engines. I haven't had many issues that I can think of, once the motor got back from one of the Pro builders I've used over the years. I've had great luck with Ivey, Loyning, Williams (before he retired, RIP) and now Butler. I am unaware of any Kent part shortages and for the two recent rebuilds of unknown origin engines, Rollin put in Ford cranks he had. I have no worries about their life expectancy with the lighter flywheels allowed and the use in Vintage racing. The Swift engine already had one of the newer cranks.

[alangbaker]

Sorry you had those issues with your Kent engines. I haven't had many issues that I can think of, once the motor got back from one of the Pro builders I've used over the years. I've had great luck with Ivey, Loyning, Williams (before he retired, RIP) and now Butler. I am unaware of any Kent part shortages and for the two recent rebuilds of unknown origin engines, Rollin put in Ford cranks he had. I have no worries about their life expectancy with the lighter flywheels allowed and the use in Vintage racing. The Swift engine already had one of the newer cranks.

I'm sure you've had great success with them. But you are always one mechanical over-rev away from a complete teardown... ...at the very least.

And if you don't mind saying: how much have you spent with them over how many years?

[reidhazelton]

As someone who was peripherally involved with the Honda deal, Honda brought a proposal to SCCA.

I was making a point, more than asking question. We all knew the answer.

[BorkRacing]

Let me preface this with "Yes, I have a seriously vested interest in the subject, probably more than most, as I make my living working in FF/FC/FA/F4",

but all this never-ending Ford vs Honda, Zetec vs Pinto, Spec-tire vs open, blah blah blah

I was at the COTA Super Tour last weekend, working on door cars as it turns out, and couldn't help noticing that there were what, only four FF and a single FC ?

if you guys don't get your cars out of the garage and to the track pronto, none of this is going to matter one iota !!!!!!!!!!!

rant over, sorry

There are 50+ FF and FV fields and large S2 and FC groups, just not in SCCA anymore. Go to a vintage event and you will see them.
Does that say something about SCCA? Do they need to wake up like Ford did?
As a side note, Honda power is not welcome at many of the large vintage groups...hmmm! (except Bob Wrights FRP- he loves everyone!)

[problemchild]

I am involved in FF and F1600 again because of HPD. I can certainly run my business as I do because of the FIT engine. The economics are what makes my business model work. My first attempt in the Formula Ford class was an economic disaster that took years to recover from and left me very disillusioned with the class. HPD fixed that and made it possible for me to get involved again as a racer, and evolve into making my living from it. Thankyou to HPD and SCCA!

As I understand it, our friends at HPD have retired, and the realities of business in 2021 are in play. I am glad it lasted this long.

That would be awesome if the Dougs stepped up to help solve this current problem. Thank you Fast Forward!

I will let the haters hate, and take their delight in rehashing history. I will move forward, doing what I can to help the class survive or thrive, wherever that takes us. Anybody is welcome to join me. Cheers!

[Jnovak]

Just to let you know Ford Racing also put together a small team of engineers to make proposals to the SCCA for the use of more modern engines from Fords available engines and guess what happened? The SCCA said no we are not interested so the Scca could have followed England's lead and decided that a more modern engine from Ford was needed! But the SCCA said no we are not interested!

There's always more to the story!

I really don't know what Ford engine is now being used in england today but i am sure it could have been used in the USA too.