F1 SPOILER-Wet = Great Equalizer?

[Bardahl77]

So Lance Stroll gets his first F1 pole in the rain. Mercedes way down the grid. So, does this mean Hamilton & Bottas are crap rain racers, or that the Mercedes is a poor wet track car? Never have figured out if it means a driver has great car control or if the chassis is just more forgiving to drive at lower speeds.

Also, do the parc ferme rules prevent them from changing any wing or suspension settings? I would think if it's dry tomorrow they get a chance to change setups.

One thing didn't change - the Haas team sucks bilge water.

[DaveW]

I've had car setups that were blindingly fast under certain conditions but impossible to drive in the rain. I've also had cars that were magic in the rain. The worst car I ever had in the rain had low spring rates and very stiff dampers - driving in rain was like driving on ice.

OTOH, when I drove in the UK FF championship in '84, some guys could drive in the rain even when, IMO, the car wasn't very good. I could see their hands moving on the steering wheel so fast they were a blur. That was a talent I hadn't learned.

There was one Indy-car race last year where Marco Andretti was the 1st one out on slicks on a wet track - same sort of thing. His hands were a blur and kept his car on track even though you could see it was trying to spin out every second or 2. Too bad his rain car-control talent doesn't extend to dry races. It's obviously 2 very different abilities.

[B Farnham]

So Lance Stroll gets his first F1 pole in the rain. Mercedes way down the grid. So, does this mean Hamilton & Bottas are crap rain racers, or that the Mercedes is a poor wet track car? Never have figured out if it means a driver has great car control or if the chassis is just more forgiving to drive at lower speeds.

Also, do the parc ferme rules prevent them from changing any wing or suspension settings? I would think if it's dry tomorrow they get a chance to change setups.

One thing didn't change - the Haas team sucks bilge water.

I think the one weakness that the Mercedes have this year is that they aren't able to build tire temperature when the track is cold. We saw that at the start of the Portuguese grand prix where they struggled. They obviously have great power and aero which would normally translate to the wet. The longer session in Q2 allowed them to build the temperature over the session but Q3 not being as long worked against them.

Hopefully it'll be a great race tomorrow, its getting old watching the Mercs finish 1-2 every week.

Brian

[t walgamuth]

I think the one weakness that the Mercedes have this year is that they aren't able to build tire temperature when the track is cold. We saw that at the start of the Portuguese grand prix where they struggled. They obviously have great power and aero which would normally translate to the wet. The longer session in Q2 allowed them to build the temperature over the session but Q3 not being as long worked against them.

Hopefully it'll be a great race tomorrow, its getting old watching the Mercs finish 1-2 every week.

Brian

I imagine one problem with racing in the rain is that a truly great setup would suck for dry track. I imagine they typically would set up a compromise for when the rain stops or eases up. I imagine soft springs and dampers and a lot of wing would be what you want for a rainy track.

[TimH]

Regardless of the car I tend to be too gradual and progressive with the controls to be fast on dry tracks. In the wet I have a ball, but do need to be quick reacting with the steering wheel. A soft setup exaggerates both issues. Wet racing in Arizona is so rare, though...

[Bardahl77]

Because when it rains in Arizona the track gets flooded?

[Peter Olivola]

I would imagine rain in Aridzona is like snow in Hotlanta.

[DaveW]

I think the one weakness that the Mercedes have this year is that they aren't able to build tire temperature when the track is cold. We saw that at the start of the Portuguese grand prix where they struggled. They obviously have great power and aero which would normally translate to the wet. The longer session in Q2 allowed them to build the temperature over the session but Q3 not being as long worked against them.

Hopefully it'll be a great race tomorrow, its getting old watching the Mercs finish 1-2 every week.

Brian

That goes back to tire compounds. Some rain compounds need to be a lot warmer than ambient to work. That applies to the rain compounds used in F1 and Indycar. When I won FV at Road Atlanta in '72, my Firestone rains worked great at the ~39-degree ambient temperature, which I knew they would, and that allowed me to pull out a 7-second lead, after starting 5th (dry qualifying sessions), on the 1st lap. So having the car build temperature in the tires quickly could be either an advantage or the opposite depending on the situation and the tire characteristics.

[Bardahl77]

Apparently in the race, Racing Points cars were set up to get heat into the tires more quickly, and they squirted away from the start. Once Hamilton got his tires warmed he was unstoppable in the second half and Stroll seemed to have over stressed his tires.

Rather impressive run for Hamilton considering how the Mercedes looked all but uncontrollable at times, with Bottas having a half-dozen spins. Perez went on a one-stopper like Hamilton but was still over 30 sec back at the end. Amazing.

[DaveW]

Apparently in the race, Racing Points cars were set up to get heat into the tires more quickly, and they squirted away from the start. Once Hamilton got his tires warmed he was unstoppable in the second half and Stroll seemed to have over stressed his tires.

Rather impressive run for Hamilton considering how the Mercedes looked all but uncontrollable at times, with Bottas having a half-dozen spins. Perez went on a one-stopper like Hamilton but was still over 30 sec back at the end. Amazing.

I think the key for Hamilton was the precision of his driving. With the inter's having worn down to slicks, any excursions off the dry line could have been disastrous - he would have lost tire temperature instantly and may never have been able to get it back since the tire compound in the middle portion of the tires was worn so thin as to not be able to generate or store much heat. So, IMO, his disciplined, error-free driving (aided by being out front, away from traffic) made the difference.

[Bardahl77]

By the way, I apologize if this spoiled the race for anyone not afflicted with insomnia. Didn't think about that since I was watching a live chatboard during the race. I'll remember that!

[billtebbutt]

Not a huge Stroll fan, but man did I feel for the guy yesterday. He didn't want the second tire change, but was called in anyhow. My understanding (according to Brundle) is that they were going to call in both cars but as the higher running team member he could elect to go first or second, so he went first. He was in the groove, and by calling him he just lost both the ability to get tire temp into the second set and his nerve.

Then they leave Perez out, and he pulls away on his second set for the rest of the race, right onto the podium. Wonder how the team owner is feeling about the Stroll call today?

cheers,
BT

[kea]

Not a huge Stroll fan, but man did I feel for the guy yesterday. He didn't want the second tire change, but was called in anyhow. My understanding (according to Brundle) is that they were going to call in both cars but as the higher running team member he could elect to go first or second, so he went first. He was in the groove, and by calling him he just lost both the ability to get tire temp into the second set and his nerve.

Then they leave Perez out, and he pulls away on his second set for the rest of the race, right onto the podium. Wonder how the team owner is feeling about the Stroll call today?

cheers,
BT

I guess you missed the part where Lance called in to complain about graining on his Inter. tires, twice. I noticed other drivers running through water to help keep them cool. Maybe that would have helped.
I still think he did a great job, starting from the pole and all the pressure that brings with it.

[Gary_T]

The team is saying he had damage that reduced front end downforce - maybe it's just a story to take some heat of off him, or fact, who knows? He put together a pretty special lap for pole in quali, and certainly looked like everything was going his way for the first 20 laps or so.

https://racer.com/2020/11/16/racing-...in-slips-away/

[Jerry Kehoe]

It was good to see him out front and going away which at least proved he deserves to be there regardless if his dad bought the team or not. Whatever the reason for his tailing off after the pit stop the experience and tire saving ability showed up in Perez showing his racecraft again. Hope that Perez gets a good ride for next year but the reality is that unless you are with Mercedes, Red Bull, eventually Ferrari you are stuck in the midfield and only odd race circumstances can change that. Truth of the matter if Hamilton was in the Williams I seriously doubt he would ever see the top five again! The reality of F1!

[billtebbutt]

I guess you missed the part where Lance called in to complain about graining on his Inter. tires, twice. I noticed other drivers running through water to help keep them cool. Maybe that would have helped.
I still think he did a great job, starting from the pole and all the pressure that brings with it.

No, I didn't miss it. But he is a young driver, under racing circumstances that were pretty rare (as in, really, since when is wearing rains down to slicks the winning combination?). Not surprised he griped about the graining, but a little surprised that the team gave in to him so quickly given his track position.

We also heard Hamilton whinging about his brakes, but his team didn't really do anything about it other than lend a compassionate, calming ear. Which might just have been what Stroll needed.

cheers,
BT

[FVRacer21]

Since I have not driven an F1 car take what I say with a large grain of salt.

The track was new, so the "line" had not gotten a chance to polish out, so the "rain" line was not as important (although Vettel seemed to stay off the apexes more than others.)

The Racing Points seemed to go better in qualifying by staying off the curbs for the most point, while others were attacking them. That upset the car and the paint had to have less traction that the track (not saying much) and then you get into the ground effects question.

So neat and tidy - and by staying off the high curbs (the ones that unsettled the cars) seemed to be the "hot" setup, even though it looked slower.

ChrisZ

[DaveW]

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On Monday, Racing Point released a statement saying it had found a root cause for Stroll’s problems that had not been obvious during the race itself.

“It was discovered during the team’s routine after race car set down that damage to the underside of Lance’s front wing was a significant contributor to the severe graining issues that Lance experienced during his second and third stints on the intermediate tires at the Turkish Grand Prix,” the statement read.

“Lance reported poor tire performance, significant understeer and graining from Lap 17 onwards in the race. Pitting for a fresh set of intermediates on Lap 36 failed to resolve the problem with the graining becoming even more severe.

“One of the strakes on the underside of the front wing came loose and lodged itself in such a way that the blockage caused a significant loss of front downforce. The resultant loss of front downforce contributed to increased levels of graining.
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So that's why Stroll lost pace - nothing he did caused it unless going over a curb dislodged the strake.

He may well have won if not for that issue.

[EricP]

"Max Verstappen had a scrappy Turkish Grand Prix and finished sixth despite the Red Bull appearing to have the pace for victory early in the race. But it has emerged the handling of the Dutchman’s RB16 was negatively impacted by a front wing adjustment mistake by the team."

Apparently it was 7 degrees off on one side. Geez...

[BeerBudgetRacing]

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“One of the strakes on the underside of the front wing came loose and lodged itself in such a way that the blockage caused a significant loss of front downforce. The resultant loss of front downforce contributed to increased levels of graining.
----------------------------------------------------
So that's why Stroll lost pace - nothing he did caused it unless going over a curb dislodged the strake.

He may well have won if not for that issue.

Wouldn't they have seen it in data? Seems a bit odd they didn't. The RPs certainly had great pace.

[DaveW]

Wouldn't they have seen it in data? Seems a bit odd they didn't. The RPs certainly had great pace.

They said they saw it in the data, but didn't know if it was real or if they could fix it quick enough to do any good..

Full article:
https://racer.com/2020/11/16/racing-...in-slips-away/

[EricP]

... I used to love when it rained when I raced a production car (an early 911 and later a Datsun 510) because I had much better chances against people with bigger engine budgets than mine. I felt it equalized things... they couldn't just stomp the gas.

For F1, I don't know if the difference is that stark. What it does seem to do is reward very deliberate, accurate, and smooth driving.

[Offcamber1]

What it does seem to do is reward very deliberate, accurate, and smooth driving.

The other would be that it rewards superior car control. Thinking of Gilles, Senna, Pedro Rodriguez... In an F3 race one time they hung a sign out to Peterson that simply said: "Ronnie, Rain." He just was so far ahead.

[EricP]

The other would be that it rewards superior car control. Thinking of Gilles, Senna, Pedro Rodriguez... In an F3 race one time they hung a sign out to Peterson that simply said: "Ronnie, Rain." He just was so far ahead.

Well I agree but I added the word “deliberate” to accurate and smooth because I think Verstappen has some amazing car control but he appeared to impulsively try a pass that resulted in his spin that dropped him from a likely podium. At least that’s how I saw it. I had been hoping for a win for him as a change from the usual Mercedes.