4AGE help...

[Forcedinduction]

First off, I'm glad to see this forum. The internet needs more informative sites like this.

Well, on to more important things... I am looking for any and all available information pertaining to the 4AGE Atlantic engine. I am quite familiar with the stock Toyota 4AGE and it's many incarnations, but have found little information of race prep as advanced as the FA 4AGEs. My questions are so numerous and rudimentary that asking each and every one would be futile. Basic knowledge like the difference between the early stock 4AGE large port head and the unit sold by TRD as the "spec" FA head alludes me. This is one of the multitude of queries I am looking to answer.

I currently race a 4AGE powered Corolla and am attempting to build a similar setup to a low powered Formula Atlantic spec 4AGE in the 200-220 hp range. I have amassed a good cache of TRD parts for the build, including 48mm Webers, TRD FA main bearing caps, Weisco 12:1 Pistons, TRD 0.3mm Head Gasket, ARP bolts and studs among other various parts.

So... Do you 4AGE gurus think I'm going in an appropriate direction. Can you point me toward any good resources of useable and valuable information. Also, do you know of anywhere to locate cheap, used or cheap used FA 4AGE parts?

Any and all helpful information would be a godsend... Thank you for your time and help.

[Charles Warner]

You might start by looking at the Classified section in this forum. Steve Jennings has a lot of Toyota stuff and could be a wealth of info for you as well. Treat him gently, 'cause he's sort of sensitive.

[Stan Clayton]

If I understand the TRD catalog correctly, the TRD race-spec head is the early 'large port' head. This head may not be the best choice for a Corolla due to the Corolla's greater weight (than an Atlantic), and need for more torque. From what I've been told by successful sedan racers at the Runoffs, most seem to prefer the 'small port' head, as it makes better torque figures with only a slight hp penalty at the top end (over 9000 rpm).

The TRD Formula Atlantic block is the early supercharged 4AGZE block as used in the first generation MR2. This is a fine block, but is rare and expensive. However, I know of several 4AGE homebuilders who report very good success with the standard 4AGE block, so long as you use a true racing crankshaft. Look for one from a RWD car if your Corolla is RWD.

I notice your list of accumulated parts doesn't mention rods. You will want to get some good aftermarket rods and bolts. Used Atlantic rods should work well for your target hp, and will save you a lot of cash. As Charles suggests, call Steve Jennings for used parts - sorry, I don't have his number. Arne Loyning builds a ton of club motors (including those for the last 4 or 5 Runoffs winners in FA) and may have used parts for sale. Arne's number is 503-775-2999.

IMO the 48's are too large for your application. The hp target you quote implies a max rpm of about 9000, which is where the 48's really come into their own on this engine. If you are serious obout 220 hp, then I suggest 45's. If 200 is a more realistic hp target, you will be very happy with 40's. Over-carbing these little engines kills torque, which is what pulls you off the corners.

A final word about 4AGE heads. I would be leery of buying a used, fully-ported racing head. The TRD castings are fairly thin, and it is easy to end up with a porous or cracked head from overly-aggressive porting.

Good luck!

[MJ]

A very good place to watch for any race related parts etc. is www.race-cars.com I've had great success in locating used and new Toyota FA items on that site. Be sure to look through the entire list on the for sale list. I've sometimes found that contacting those with parts listed results in further leads even if their item is already sold. Greg Harrington had a head for sale awhile back. Look for his name on an ad and contact him. I've bought things from him and he has been very useful. My personal experience has been that 4AGE stuff sells quickly, so be prepared to buy now when you see it. Another web site that does a pretty good job of desribing engine mods is www.billzilla.org Although not specific, as in porting instructions etc. It does discuss ways to get HP from a 4age. I'm sure a reputable 4age builder would be your best source for current up to date info

[Forcedinduction]

Thanks for all the help and emails... I've read just about everything on billzilla.org and have reached the point were the information on that site just isn't enough...

The Corolla I'm building should weigh around 1650 lbs without driver. The 7 Rib blocks that were talked about are easy and cheap to get, so are stock cranks. But, I've been told that the stock cracks wont see much past 10,000 rpm! So, correct me if I'm wrong... But the Formula Atlantic crank sounds like the only choice. What does a used FA crank in good shape go for? Connecting rods are at the top of my to get list followed closely by the crank, I had only found one person on the internet selling the rods used. And it seems he is no longer in business.

The 200hp estimate was based on using the stock crank and connecting rods. As I previously stated, I don't believe the stock parts to last when push to the rpms needed to reach 220+ horsepower. But with the right parts the sky is the limit(well the sky and my poverty level)!

Also, where is a good resource for sidedraft information. Again, from what I have read on the internet, the 48mm webers should flow nicely in the RPM range I want with the use of a 40mm venturi. I picked up this whole carb assembly on ebay for $460! That's both 48mm webers with trumpets and linkage... And the 4AGE FA intake manifold... It seemed like a good deal, as each one of those carbs new retails for over $450 and that's without the trumpets. Should I sell them and get smaller carburetors? Will getting smaller venturi for the 48 Webers do the trick? So many questions...

The block isn't at all a problem if indeed the 7 rib blocks is the way to go. Same with the BIG port heads from the early 4AGE. The smaller port heads on the later 4AGE are also easy to get, but I've also heard they make for lower flow at higher HP numbers. But the average internet racer seems to think they know more then they really do, and the small port might be the best head to use?

I'm trying to get as educated as possible before talking to an engine builder, as wasting his time and or my money is NOT an attractive option. So, thank you all again for helping me out.

[MJ]

Go to the second page of the classifieds on this site. Jensen Motorsports has some low mileage 4age parts available. As of last week, quite a bit was still there. He had a TRD crankshaft, pistons, etc. at that time.

Saenz makes a rod for the 4age for $160 each. It's a virtual clone of the Carillo. They aren't a stock item, but are made to order. They come with ARP hardware. They have a website. I know of at least one Atlantic pro team that used them in their practice engines. Pro rules require spec TRD rods in actual race engines.

[Forcedinduction]

Thanks for the heads up on www.saenzperformance.com! $160 for a new rod is a great price for the 4AGE. As you pointed out, I have no obligation to use the spec parts nor the Formula Atlantic specifications. I can run any head, cam, valve, piston, rod, crank, port size and a 82+mm bore. I was just looking in to using FA parts because of availability and the cost of used parts over custom made.

I also sent Steve Jennings an email, hopefully he can get back to me with a list of parts and prices.

[Jonathan Taz]

I have a brand new set of "Wiseco Atlantic Piston's," and Rings for sale in the classified section. I think they are priced to sell for $350.00 for the set!

[Jim Colombotos]

We (sport toyota owners) run the non supercharged block on our cars. Arnie Loyning handles some of our rebuilds. Origanaly Arnie istalled a supercharged crank and rods, custom cam, 12:1 JE pistons and header 8200 redline...made about 165hp 135ish foot pounds of torque. The weak link..... turned out to be the crank. Most of the guys having there motors rebuilt now spend the extra $500-$600 dollars for a TRD crank.
The next upgrade about $800 came in the form of mild porting, bumped up the HP another 10-15 hp. Redline stayed at 8200 rpm.
At this point the next step was to increase RPM to 9000 rpm, which required going to underbucket shims, new cams, adjustable cam gears, more agressive porting. Also a close ratio tranny would come in handy now too... even as the HP and Torque #s were higher than the above mentioned motors. Right now Im seeing 205 hp and 145 ft pounds of torque. The cars used both webber 40 carbs or pectel fuel injection. Here is a link to the Sports Toyota forum if you would like to see our cars.
http://pub52.ezboard.com/bsportstoyotaforum

[size="1"][ March 11, 2004, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Jim Colombotos ][/size]

[Forcedinduction]

Wow, great link... THANKS!!!

[Fred Michael]

I spoke with Paul Hasselgren today and he has tons (literally) of used atlantic parts that he is willing to part with. Give him a call at 510-524-2485.

Fred