FM proposed to go into a new catch-all FX class in SCCA ???

[starfmguy]

I guess I missed this earlier.

Please see the December SCCA Fastrack, where the CRB is proposing to the SCCA Board to eliminate FM and put us into a new FX catch-all class, with specifically F4 and USF2000 cars. (I should note that USF2000 cars are significantly quicker & were over 6 seconds a lap quicker at Portland International Raceway). There is no background or justification listed.

Unsure of the timing, but the Fontana Majors race in January 2020 does not have a FM class on their shedule, only the new proposed FX class.

I just submitted a rambling e-mail (I am too emotional at the moment to be too coherent = lol) to the CRB opposing this and asking for reasons why this is being proposed. I see no advantage to doing this. We would still run in the same race group with the same cars, I guess the local club could possibly save a few dollars on trophies, but what else???

I guess I can see having a new mid-speed, catch-all formula class, IF it helps with more entries, but I do not see how putting our FM's into it helps.

FM needs to get our car count up, but eliminating our spec class like this seems like a punch in the gut ! (especially happening so quickly without real notice & justification). I have not seen any info or background on this anywhere.

Maybe I am over-reacting... maybe I misread this & I am dreaming... and yes, I want to protect "my class"...

What do you think ? I think we should keep our FM class !!!

I challenge anyone to convince me that this is a good idea.

Mel Kemper
Toledo, WA

[E1pix]

I'm curious, was there any notice given to you in the class that this was coming?

This reminds me of a friend's tale from F500. He'd just spent a bundle on a fresh Rotax at the end of his first year, planned out his next year's life, schedule, and business to accommodate the season schedule, and WHAM! 600s were introduced, his new motor was instantly outclassed, and he bitterly sold the car and bought something else outside the SCCA.

There was a lovely FM for sale here lately, fresh from a Runoffs win. If I'd been the guy to buy it and FX suddenly came about, it'd be clear as day that the hard-earned funds of members mean absolutely nothing to SCCA.

I wish you guys all the best.

[starfmguy]

I just got a response from the Cal Club registrar, about the Fontana Majors race in January 2020. She said "FM is no longer a class, it is now incorporated into FX".

This is bull****...

[Daryl DeArman]

18 Majors last year had ONE or ZERO FM cars entered. Eighteen times.

As of now this is a proposal sent to the BOD. I don't know how the 5 or so folks who entered 3 weekends (Majors and/or Super Tour) or more can convince the BOD that FM is one of the classes worth saving. . .

[dalz]

Just got the email. Fait accompli.

I'm not happy as a longtime FM driver but I understand the changing times. I wonder if this will be the final resting place for other classes. FE1 would be a candidate. How fast do F4s go? I don't know how to get all these cars to a reasonably equal speed.

[dalz]

The Club just cut the ribbon on a shiny new long-desired open-wheel class graveyard. Next up: FE1, FC, ??

Formula Xpired.

[weedline]

Sadly, I guess we all saw it coming, but it still is a very sad day to see a scca spec class disappear.
They have essentially made all Formula Mazdas a track day car.
IMO It's time to drop the archaic restrictions like sealed engines, spec tires, rev. chips and high minimum weights.
They were there to insure parity between a spec class, but now we must beat new technology cars with old outdated technology.
The FM is plenty fast if you take the reins off her and let her run.

I really would like to hear input from Moses on this development. He has the largest vested interest in the loss of the FM class.

[E1pix]

Obvious attempts to equalize via weight or intake restrictions aside, might varying tire compounds be a way to equalize?

I hate what's happening to open wheel. Sad as hell and seemingly-few attempts from the Club to do more than saddle people with expensive, and now potentially useless, cars.

Hard-as-rock tires for quicker cars, sticky gumballs for the lesser?

Tire costs aside, if I had one of these cars I'd sure pick a higher tire bill over a parking stall or a classified ad drenched in tears.

[John Nesbitt]

The Club just cut the ribbon on a shiny new long-desired open-wheel class graveyard. Next up: FE1, FC, ??

Formula Xpired.

FE1 was replaced with FE2, and disappeared as a Majors/Runoffs class following a sunset period. Just like SRF became SRF3.

See also below.

Sadly, I guess we all saw it coming, but it still is a very sad day to see a scca spec class disappear.
They have essentially made all Formula Mazdas a track day car.

...

Not necessarily. FM has disappeared as a standalone Majors/Runoffs class. It is important to remember that this happened solely because of declining Majors entries. FM owners can continue to compete in Majors/Runoffs as part of FX.


It is also important to remember that FM can continue as a Regional class (lust like FE1 and SRF). I believe that FM participation tends to be fairly localized in different parts of the country. There is absolutely nothing to stop a Region, or every Region for that matter, from running FM as its own Regional class in Regional events. This is happening with SRF and likely FE1. Heck, it's happening with Sports Renault at NJMP.

Not the same as being a Runoffs class, I grant you, but it does reflect actual numbers on the ground.

[Daryl DeArman]

It is also important to remember that FM can continue as a Regional class (lust like FE1 and SRF). I believe that FM participation tends to be fairly localized in different parts of the country. There is absolutely nothing to stop a Region, or every Region for that matter, from running FM as its own Regional class in Regional events.

It's also important to remember that if you are in a localized area with decent FM participation levels, reach out to some of the other organizations in the area, find out what it would take for them to give you your own group and/or class. No need to feed the hand that bit you

[Lotus7]

...How fast do F4s go? I don't know how to get all these cars to a reasonably equal speed.

From all I've read, there seems no intention of balancing the performance of FM to F4 to FE to USF2000 to etc etc within FX...
Its just a grouping to race the orphan cars.
Now that said, it will be interesting to see if FX gets its own run group, or if as usual its Formula-Everybody out at the same time, which would in reality mean nothing has changed except for the addition of an "FX winner".

Can't see anything changing for the better until all the guys with cars in the garage get them out on track ... this is one massive chicken-or-the-egg fiasco ... SCCA won't listen, let alone act, until they see cars putting their participation where their mouths are.

[racerweav]

It's also important to remember that if you are in a localized area with decent FM participation levels, reach out to some of the other organizations in the area, find out what it would take for them to give you your own group and/or class. No need to feed the hand that bit you

Excellent point Daryl. We ran our Formula Car Challenge for several years with NASA who gave us our own run group. We will see what the future holds. As I believe you know, we routinely turn out a dozen or so FM's for our San Francisco Region regional & major events. I doubt the SF Region wants to see that level of entry fees disappear.

[Bardahl77]

I just got the email as well, I don't know what the folks are smoking, but that Prototype X class looks even stranger. LMP and DP cars, GTP and Camel Lights? Is this a setup for someone to emulate Jerry Hansen in the old days and show up with a 1500 hp Nissan GTP? Talk about a class with stratospheric costs!

[Jnovak]

Excellent point Daryl. We ran our Formula Car Challenge for several years with NASA who gave us our own run group. We will see what the future holds. As I believe you know, we routinely turn out a dozen or so FM's for our San Francisco Region regional & major events. I doubt the SF Region wants to see that level of entry fees disappear.

I hate to see this happening but i think that there are only two open wheel classes that are making the required minimum number of entries and they are FV & FF all of the others are on probation right now so expect further changes in the next couple of years if average entries do not increase. My bad if I have my numbers wrong. I am not happy either as my favorite class is on probation now too!

[dalz]

I don't understand why USF2000 wasn't put with FC. Or how FC survived as a class. If FC is still a class, why not pump up its numbers with another very compatible car? I have my speculatuons.

I was hasty with my wonder at why FE1 wasn't in on it. The Club wants FE1 off to regionals to make everyone buy a $65k FE2. If the current agenda is to "get cars out of garages", why not include this car.

[Jnovak]

I don't understand why USF2000 wasn't put with FC. Or how FC survived as a class. If FC is still a class, why not pump up its numbers with another very compatible car? I have my speculatuons.

I believe that FC is one of the classes on probation.

Can anyone clarify this issue of probation?

[problemchild]

I don't understand why USF2000 wasn't put with FC. Or how FC survived as a class. If FC is still a class, why not pump up its numbers with another very compatible car? I have my speculatuons.

That would make too much sense. Too many hard-ass types involved. One group of Pinto racers are so bitter that they would rather see the class die, then open it up to different engines. Another group of well-connected SCCA people don't like BOP, so would rather let the class die. Sad!

The SCCA people won't listen ..... but rearranging class structures, while still running the same cars in the same groups, does absolutely nothing for the on-track experience. It does, however, disenfranchise racers.

[dalz]

I believe that FC is one of the classes on probation.

Can anyone clarify this issue of probation?

Honestly, I haven't heard about "probation" meaning anything as far as if classes are safe or not in a long time. Some of the doorslammmer classes popped up out of nowhere, because manufacturers wanted them, and some classes where the FBI couldn't find a car stayed intact for years. I'm sure FM met the criteria for probation, but...so what?

By the way, is the GCR bulletin that spells out every damn syllable of the rules we're working under now somewhere? It should be, since this is the law of the land in 15 days.

[dalz]

From all I've read, there seems no intention of balancing the performance of FM to F4 to FE to USF2000 to etc etc within FX...
Its just a grouping to race the orphan cars.

That seems to be a very strange plan for national classes. A formerly spec car (actually 3) now under one tent, all still adhering to their original rules? I would better understand if FM was kicked to regional only.

The FM can go faster, possibly significantly faster. I will look forward to further information.

[MosesSmithRacing]

This is my as Formula Mazda stance at this point.


1) We need a more defined explanation of what FX is. At this point the minimal information I have been given verbally is that FX is a class that new Formula Cars or Formula Car Classes with dwindling numbers can go into to try and build sufficient numbers to break out into a stand alone class. We need to not ask, but require the CRB to define this for FX, and give break out parameters. Like how much participation, and for how long.


2) It is in our best interest that NO BoP happen to any of the cars. That we all run as "subclasses" separately and counted separately. that way we have the option to break out at some point. If we allow BoP, and somehow the cars get "close" then FX will just become a catch all class. We need to demand that this is an incubation class. not a blending class.
If for some reason we get into a BoP situation, we need more definition on how theBoP works. And we as FM need to hold our ground that there is nothing affordable that we can do to make our car faster. We need to demand that the BoP happen to the USF and F4.
If we allow or lobby for any major changes to the FM, I am sure the numbers will suffer even more. Outside of a few bolt on items, that may equate to making the car 1 second faster. All other modification will be at a significant cost or conversion expenses to the car, causing the class to die faster than you can imagine.


We do not want to get into a BoP class, and have to be constantly changing cars, and parameters based on someone else's interpretation of what is happening. BoP is very hard for Formula car classes. There are so many variables to consider. I would be more than happy to discuss this portion at a later date, but please trust me when I say this can be manipulated to no end depending on the result you want...


At the end of the day people need to drive. They need to drive SCCA Majors events. We need to average 4 cars per Majors event. Not just super tours, Majors events. Regional participation does not count. There were 70 events over the past 2 years. we needed 280 cars to start and finish at least half of the races. Over the last two years we were short 71.



We will continue to support the class indefinitely, as the rule set currently stands. We will make affordable updates as needed. But we will not open up the rules, and let everyone create a free for all atmosphere. We saw this same thing happen when PFM owners thought they could buy there way to Formula Atlantic speeds. A lot of money was spent with little to no result by PFM owners in the Pro Series, as well as post pro series in scca.


Let's build our numbers and petition to break out of FX.

Moses
moses@mosessmith.com
817.382.4188

[dalz]

Thank you Moses for the information, and cooler head.

So, this is new ground for Majors racing. Classes can break out. If that's correct, like Moses said, this all has to be defined to a "T" very, very soon. Sebring is 3 weeks away.

[Daryl DeArman]

Thoughts from the peanut gallery regarding BoP.

I agree with Moses in that if you attempt to arrive at some BoP, the class will become a constant bitch/whine fest with someone always lobbying for something else. Rule changes cost money and constantly moving goal posts suck.

If you don't attempt to arrive at some BoP and there is no plan/willingness for the club to put FM back on the Majors list no matter the numbers. . . well you've just become grid fodder and greatly reduced the value of the cars.

Perhaps a solution would be to query those FM owners who aren't very active and find out if there are tweaks to the package that would cause them to participate more? There are just a handful of FM racers who are "active", those few doing 2 or 3 more weekends doesn't sway the numbers near as much as getting the other 50 guys who did one or none to do 2 weekends a year.

[iamuwere]

The Club wants FE1 off to regionals to make everyone buy a $65k FE2.

luckily the conversion to FE2 is no where near this cost. If you can do it yourself you can have a car for way less

[Richard Hybels]

luckily the conversion to FE2 is no where near this cost. If you can do it yourself you can have a car for way less

Care to be more specific?

[iamuwere]

Care to be more specific?

engine and a new transmission was like 18k. My last engine went through three log books. I hope this goes as long.

used fe1 are aging for 18-20k. Under 40k for a competitor car in a competitive class that requires minimal supplies of spares, gears, etc

[Richard Hybels]

engine and a new transmission was like 18k. My last engine went through three log books. I hope this goes as long.

used fe1 are aging for 18-20k. Under 40k for a competitor car in a competitive class that requires minimal supplies of spares, gears,

etc

hmm. The previous owner of my vintage FF spent $15k on rebuilt motor and Taylor rebuild on the trans so there is that for perspective and you have a brand spanking new motor and trans.
Thanks

[Richard Hybels]

engine and a new transmission was like 18k. My last engine went through three log books. I hope this goes as long.

used fe1 are aging for 18-20k. Under 40k for a competitor car in a competitive class that requires minimal supplies of spares, gears,

etc

hmm. The previous owner of my vintage FF spent $15k on rebuilt motor and Taylor rebuild on the trans so there is that for perspective and you have a brand spanking new motor and trans.
I guess your old motor and trans are worth something to an FE guy on a budget.
Thanks

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Have they ripped the FM spec from the GCR?

Maybe the first petition should be to maintain the class in the GCR. And footnote its national class is Fx.
If they don't leave it in, its not coming back.

[Dave Welsh]

Have they ripped the FM spec from the GCR?

Look here:

https://www.scca.com/downloads/48221...tb-12/download

[John Nesbitt]

From the preliminary TB:

Formula/Sports Racing

F

1. #27903 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Incorporate FM, F4, USF2000 and other spec lines if FX approvedRemove Formula Mazda, GCR section 9.1.1.E, in its entirety ...

Car must comply with all December2019 GCR Formula Mazdapreparation rules found here:https://www.scca.com/pages/technical...nd-downloads.I

[tahoe z]

Scca continues show what clowns they are mark my words fc fa etc will all end up the same way for my part I will keep supporting pacific f2000 wish peter would have a open series for all open wheel cars and just forget scca tell me how fm fe are going to be competitive against the faster cars in this. Class? It is the future of scca open wheel racing. Thank you

[Daryl DeArman]

. . .forget scca tell me how fm fe are going to be competitive against the faster cars in this. Class?

They won't be and it doesn't matter to SCCA. Why should they manipulate rules/performance to pacify an average of 4 cars per major (2.47 and 1.55 each)? 97 out of every 100 entries at a Major are racing in some class other than FM and FE(1). They need to focus their efforts on delivering a better product to those 97 before they lose them too.

[LenFC11]

I get quite the kick out of threads like this.

The common complaints... We want
single class racing. Too many classes... Not enough track time.. my car is not competitive against newer cars.. shouldn't have to spend any money to upgrade car to be competitive...

Then no support, shown by car counts..

Then when anything is done to try to eliminate classes more complaining.. good stuff!

There is one way to ensure your class doesn't get eliminated.. participate! Show up and race!

Truly funny

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Scca continues show what clowns they are mark my words fc fa etc will all end up the same way for my part I will keep supporting pacific f2000 wish peter would have a open series for all open wheel cars and just forget scca tell me how fm fe are going to be competitive against the faster cars in this. Class? It is the future of scca open wheel racing. Thank you

While I understand supporting a series like PF2K, the Southern Series, FRP, etc., the problem is these series 'guide' racers away from Majors events.

SCCA position is simple. If they don't show up to our events (Majors/ST) then the class ceases to exist.

The roaming runoffs are a huge factor in the current status of things.
- Few drivers go without regard to location.
- People do not participate in Majors when they aren't going to the RO. So participation numbers get really skewed by geography.

That's why I think driver qualification should be over 2 years. Give the people a reason to run Majors.
Right now RO is a 1 season thing every 4 years for 95% of the people. So, you only get 1/4 of the participation.

So, the question is simple. Do you care or want the class to exist in the runoffs or at all?

Yes? Participate in Majors. Influence the organizers of these 'other series' to run them at Majors events. Get SCCA to do special run groups and break out ALL participants (whether part of the series) of that class at Majors events.

No? Do whatever you want. But your place to race will be Fx or a negotiated run group at REGIONAL events. The Majors races are set by National. If someone shows up with 30 FM cars they still don't get their own run group. They'll be mixed in Fx.

What's the saying: Where there's a will there's a way.

I think there is a general disdain at the CRB for 3rd party series. We're killing it ourselves - and they're letting us.

[Daryl DeArman]

While I understand supporting a series like PF2K, the Southern Series, FRP, etc., the problem is these series 'guide' racers away from Majors events.

<snip>

I think there is a general disdain at the CRB for 3rd party series. We're killing it ourselves - and they're letting us.

So be it. If somebody offers you a better experience for your time and money, why wouldn't you support them? I wouldn't go to a crappy restaurant all the time just to keep them from going out of business.

Those 3P series are taking their customers and therefore their revenue. Why should they make it easy/easier to do both? The 3P series generally try to align the rules to allow crossover and be welcoming, but once they have the numbers, there's no need if they are delivering a better product.

[RussMcB]

The new FX class gives cars like FM a way to participate in Majors. If the new class had not been created, FM would be limited to only regional racing, right?

I race in FS, which I'm perfectly happy in, but I can't race in any/every SCCA event. But cars in FX will be able to race in any/every SCCA race, right? That's something.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So be it. If somebody offers you a better experience for your time and money, why wouldn't you support them? I wouldn't go to a crappy restaurant all the time just to keep them from going out of business.

Those 3P series are taking their customers and therefore their revenue. Why should they make it easy/easier to do both? The 3P series generally try to align the rules to allow crossover and be welcoming, but once they have the numbers, there's no need if they are delivering a better product.

And that's what I'm saying. We're making the choices. So why are people complaining about the outcome?
This whole thread is about what "they" did to us.

3p series exist because of dwindling numbers. Racers scattered among too many regions. Too many places to race.
People won't travel without some expectation of a good grid. So, 3p series consolidate a larger geographic area.

The choices are simple. The outcome is just not what people expected.

[Daryl DeArman]

The choices are simple. The outcome is just not what some people expected.

Fixed that for you.

[tahoe z]

Hi paul is very right moving runoffs does causes people doing it in there year but 2018 at sanoma you would have had only about 4 cars in fc if it wasn’t for the f2000 pacific. Contingent and I think we had 16 cars and we all paid majors entry’s all that year and every year. I do understand some regions may never get enough participation numbers but moving runoffs does skew numbers. So if every 4 years on west coast. Do 4 year cycles on numbers we all like to race just do count us

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Hi paul is very right moving runoffs does causes people doing it in there year but 2018 at sanoma you would have had only about 4 cars in fc if it wasn’t for the f2000 pacific. Contingent and I think we had 16 cars and we all paid majors entry’s all that year and every year. I do understand some regions may never get enough participation numbers but moving runoffs does skew numbers. So if every 4 years on west coast. Do 4 year cycles on numbers we all like to race just do count us

Kim. You are certainly correct that series like Pacific DOES gather people in a specific class (like FC). But, as I suggested, a series can have a negative impact. NAF1000 gathered fragmented participation and specifically went to regional events and killed the participation numbers for FB back east. Then last year all the FB owners complained when the FB->FA merger was announced.

Look at Pacific's schedule this year. 1 Majors race. There are 4 they'd normally go to. I pointed it out to Peter and he said something to the effect that it's what the drivers wanted.

I'm okay with that, but do they understand the negative impact it's going to have nationally on the FC class?
And them next year? And in 2022?

Do they care?