New to driving a race car

[baybridgechano]

Hello my name is Chance. I'm currently trying to get into racing open wheel race cars I have a history with dirt nd asphalt oval track sprint cars nd midgets but never behind the wheel inky as an official.i m only 21 but my family has a history of racing dating back to 66' I want to start off in the best class that will help me grow due to my only real experience racing is on my racing games. I'm open to all forms I was interested in F1200 or FST and FF or FM. But my main hitch is im almost 6'5 not to heavy only about 210lbs size 12 shoe. So if u guys have suggestions of classes please maybe include cars to look for when shopping to fit my frame thank you

[S Lathrop]

There are 2 basic types of race cars, spec this and that or development cars. Each type will teach you certain skills. Development type cars, FV, FF, and FC, each will teach you very valuable lessons as you move up the ranks of racing car types.

The spec cars will maximize your ability to adapt to what ever you are driving. They minimize the learning curve and reduce the frustration level of learning how to setup a car and tune that setup to get maximum performance. But you miss out on some really critical skills for a race car driver. But you miss out on learning what a small change in spring rates can do, what it is to optimize the shocks on your car or what happens when you make a change in the suspension geometry.

I personally think that FV is the best class to start racing. Setup is critical and of all the cars, FV teaches you to maximize the speed through a corner better than any other class. You don't have any power so you can not waist any momentum you have. the tires are small and have limited grip but things happen a bit slower than other cars so you have time to feel what is really happening. Drive a FV well and you will be successful in anything else you jump into.

Next is FF. It teaches car control, and the real meaning of mechanical grip. Setup is critical, as is really understanding mechanical grip and all the variables that influence tire performance. Again master this class and you will find that many faster cars are easier to drive that a FF.

FC of F2000 is the next step. Here you are adding wings and ground effects. You are at the bottom rung of the advanced formula cars. Many drivers who have competed successfully in FC have moved to Indy Lights and Indy cars in short order because they had acquired the requisite driving and setup skills to allow them to succeed at these levels.

I have driven and I have been a race engineer. Most of my race engineering was in Indy Lights. And it was my FV, FF and FSV driving that gave me the skills necessary to work as a race engineer.

[DanW]

Hello my name is Chance. I'm currently trying to get into racing open wheel race cars I have a history with dirt nd asphalt oval track sprint cars nd midgets but never behind the wheel inky as an official.i m only 21 but my family has a history of racing dating back to 66' I want to start off in the best class that will help me grow due to my only real experience racing is on my racing games. I'm open to all forms I was interested in F1200 or FST and FF or FM. But my main hitch is im almost 6'5 not to heavy only about 210lbs size 12 shoe. So if u guys have suggestions of classes please maybe include cars to look for when shopping to fit my frame thank you

Hello Chance,

First off, the advice Steve Lathrop gives is pure gold.

We are racing at Sonoma (what us old farts used to call Sears Point) July 6-7 with a test day July 5. I will be working on the emergency crew, but please come see me or text me if you come out. I can introduce you to some car owners, particularly some tall ones who might be able to help. I can also put you in contact with Larry Bacon who raced FV and FE and is almost as tall as you. I will PM you my phone #.

Regards,
Dan Wise

[E1pix]

Hello Chance,

First off, the advice Steve Lathrop gives is pure gold.

For what it's worth from a new poster, I heard/knew this same thing from Harry Ingle and Gordon Smiley by '75, and Tim Evans and Gary Passon soon after.

What a "spot on" post above. Boom.

Great to see him "still around" and helping others go fast... 44 years after first knowing what he already did really, really well.

[Eric Little]

Agree with what Dan said. Come on out and talk to some folks. Formula F The Series is going to be there so we should have a pretty good showing of FF cars and I am sure that most will talk with you. I hope to be there (still waiting on some parts to complete the car). If I am, stop by and chat (orange and blue #5). I know that I will let you have a seat in my car to see how you fit and I can probably find some others that will do the same. I drive a Swift which is known to be a bit tight but the other cars may have more room.

Finally, listen to what Steve has to say. Let it sit in your brain for a while, then go back and read it again. If at any point you doubt what he is saying, stop and read it again. If you still doubt what he is saying, try as hard as you can to figure out what you got wrong.

Hope to see you at Sears Point (fine... Sonoma for the less than ancient).

Eric (who raced Sears Point for the first time well after its name change and still calls it Sears Point) Little

[Jerry Kehoe]

When I started in 1970 my driving instructor at the SCCA driver school at Road America was Augie Pabst. Augie's main advice was to start with late apexes nearly everywhere since you would be likely to not screw up so easily as to lose it coming out of the corner. As your experience and skill improve he said then the time is to start backing off to an earlier apex. He was right, you are less likely to spin and hit things as you learn. Great advice then and even now when going to a new track. Doing this helps you gain confidence and control regardless of the type of car as you have to have both to go fast! Great teaching from a damn good driver!

[holmberg]

Chance--

No one has mentioned costs. What's your budget for expenses per weekend?

With a lot of these cars, you may be able to afford to buy them, but you might not be able to 1. pay to operate the car (tires, engine rebuild, fuel, brake pads, gear box rebuild, etc) and pay for entry fee, hotel, food, gas, help, etc., or 2. pay to fix the car after you take off a corner.

I can't help you with #2, but for operational costs, check out this spreadsheet of costs for the various formula and sports racer classes, with a few production cars thrown in for comparison.

Hope this helps,


Greg

[Rick Iverson]

When I started in 1970 my driving instructor at the SCCA driver school at Road America was Augie Pabst. Augie's main advice was to start with late apexes....

Yep. Turn early, turn often, late is safe.

BTW, Google Augie and the car in the pool. Those Gents were wildly crazy.

V/r

Iverson

[baybridgechano]

Chance--

No one has mentioned costs. What's your budget for expenses per weekend?

With a lot of these cars, you may be able to afford to buy them, but you might not be able to 1. pay to operate the car (tires, engine rebuild, fuel, brake pads, gear box rebuild, etc) and pay for entry fee, hotel, food, gas, help, etc., or 2. pay to fix the car after you take off a corner.

I can't help you with #2, but for operational costs, check out this spreadsheet of costs for the various formula and sports racer classes, with a few production cars thrown in for comparison.

Hope this helps,


Greg

I realized at an early age the cost of my addiction nd not just including the need for speed but the fact that I went to vocational school to learn to fix what I broke while going fast. I don't kno about how many races there are in a season buy from what I guessed if it's less than ten I can do 500$ or a lil more thankfully I have small hookups for tires and I'll be doing my own fabrication nd repairs. Plus I plan on using a RV to haul the car nd sleep in over the weekend . Just from curiosity are there any monetary prizes in formula V ?

[E1pix]

Coming from the world of short ovals, the challenge will be learning road racing; the methods, the people, everything.

Totally different deal, mistakes in Midgets and Sprints only hurt speed for a few seconds. In road racing, multiply the effects by ten -- and the less the horsepower, the worse the penalties. It's a whole new ballgame, the gearing is so very different and the tendency will be to brake too late and exit too slow, just do lots of test days.

Enjoy the transition. You certainly should!

BTW, Google Augie and the car in the pool. Those Gents were wildly crazy.

Haha, wasn't that a rental car driven into the pool from a lost bet? Perhaps with Briggs?

My second decade was spent a mile or so from Augie. A 48-year best friend lived on Sawyer Road, where his mailbox was the end of a near-perfect, houseless quarter-mile from the next mailbox to the south. Every afternoon Augue would tear by in a gold, Boss 429 Mustang doing at least 100. One day my friend was hitching to town (Oconomowoc) and got picked up by a Ferrari. It was Augie. Genuinely cool guy.

Another longtime and best friend's step-sister is NPR's Jacki Lyden. In 1999, she released a book called Daughter of the Queen of Sheba wherein a beer magnate is described, along with terms like "Lac la Jollie" (for Lac Labelle). It's all about Oconomowoc, and the magnate is Augie. Someone owns the film rights, and I await its production.

Sorry to further OT, but Augie is one fascinating guy -- and from a helluva era and place to be raised in. Go north on 67 an hour and there lay Magic -- RA. My first race ever was the '63 Sprints, my being 35 months old, and Mr. Pabst was there.

[Rick Iverson]

Haha, wasn't that a rental car driven into the pool from a lost bet? Perhaps with Briggs?

My second decade was spent a mile or so from Augie. A 48-year best friend lived on Sawyer Road, where his mailbox was the end of a near-perfect, houseless quarter-mile from the next mailbox to the south. Every afternoon Augue would tear by in a gold, Boss 429 Mustang doing at least 100. One day my friend was hitching to town (Oconomowoc) and got picked up by a Ferrari. It was Augie. Genuinely cool guy.

Another longtime and best friend's step-sister is NPR's Jacki Lyden. In 1999, she released a book called Daughter of the Queen of Sheba wherein a beer magnate is described, along with terms like "Lac la Jollie" (for Lac Labelle). It's all about Oconomowoc, and the magnate is Augie. Someone owns the film rights, and I await its production.

Sorry to further OT, but Augie is one fascinating guy -- and from a helluva era and place to be raised in. Go north on 67 an hour and there lay Magic -- RA. My first race ever was the '63 Sprints, my being 35 months old, and Mr. Pabst was there.

I have done business with Augie on several occasions. Right out of the sixties “super cool” persona, and a Gentleman. Damn glad I had the pleasure.

V/r

Iverson

[holmberg]

I realized at an early age the cost of my addiction nd not just including the need for speed but the fact that I went to vocational school to learn to fix what I broke while going fast. I don't kno about how many races there are in a season buy from what I guessed if it's less than ten I can do 500$ or a lil more thankfully I have small hookups for tires and I'll be doing my own fabrication nd repairs. Plus I plan on using a RV to haul the car nd sleep in over the weekend . Just from curiosity are there any monetary prizes in formula V ?

FV is one of the cheapest in operational costs--tires+brake pads+race fuel+engine rebuilds+gearbox rebuilds = $718 per weekend. Add the entry fee ($450), gas, food, your helper, and it's at least $1500. Probably more like $2000. Add on more if you damage it.

A full season would typically be around 8 weekends. You can do more depending on how far you're willing to drive.

There are no prizes in amateur road racing.


Greg

[teamwisconsin]

Plus I plan on using a RV to haul the car nd sleep in over the weekend .

If you really want to do this on the cheap, I’d 86 this idea. Nothing cheap about using an RV. Tow with a small open trailer behind a small pickup with a camper shell or a small station wagon or hatchback. Sleep in the pickup (that’s why they call it a camper shell), shower at the track. RV’s are false economy. They cost a fortune to keep on the road, gas mileage is terrible, and it’s one more thing to have to fix.

[baybridgechano]

FV is one of the cheapest in operational costs--tires+brake pads+race fuel+engine rebuilds+gearbox rebuilds = $718 per weekend. Add the entry fee ($450), gas, food, your helper, and it's at least $1500. Probably more like $2000. Add on more if you damage it.

A full season would typically be around 8 weekends. You can do more depending on how far you're willing to drive.

There are no prizes in amateur road racing.


Greg

I read that formula Mazda has a payout, but it's probably oro formula Mazda? And as I understand it most other race series have a contingency payout. But no actual hard proof only what I read but FV is at the bottom of the rung

[S Lathrop]

I read that formula Mazda has a payout, but it's probably oro formula Mazda? And as I understand it most other race series have a contingency payout. But no actual hard proof only what I read but FV is at the bottom of the rung

FM is a spec car class. You will have a lot of fun with the car but you will also develop some driving habbits that will be hard to brake when you get to a faster car. Your potential to learn car setups will be limited in FM. This is good when you start but will limit you as you advance. I base this observation on experience with several drivers who spent a lot of time racing FM, they struggled with faster cars.

[Jerry Kehoe]

If you think because there is prize money you can make a profit you are dreaming. Nearly any pro series that has any kind of a payout you can pretty well plan on it costing you at least 10 times the amount you think you can win. If first place pays $2000 to win figure on it costing you $20,000 to do that, and that is for each race! It only happens in fiction!

[holmberg]

I read that formula Mazda has a payout, but it's probably oro formula Mazda? And as I understand it most other race series have a contingency payout. But no actual hard proof only what I read but FV is at the bottom of the rung

There are two cars, Formula Mazda and Pro Formula Mazda. FM is a steel space-frame and PFM is a carbon fiber tub. In SCCA "Club Racing" (amateur), you can race an FM car in the FM class, and the PFM car in the Formula A class.

There are no prizes in any SCCA Club Racing classes. Sometimes a tire manufacturer may give you a few $100 if you win on their tires. Sometimes certain important events may provide some tow money if you travel from really far away (the Runoffs, for example). It's the same with other amateur racing organizations, such as NASA.

There may be a professional series where you can race a PFM car, I don't know. But as someone else pointed out, any professional series involves a lot of money for your semi-truck and 5-person team (like several $100,000 per year), and if you win, you may get a few $1,000. A pro series is all about TV coverage and getting sponsors, and something very few here on apexspeed would have any experience with.

Bottom line: most people send about $2,000 per weekend, even in "cheap" classes like FV. Running at the front costs even more. The upper formula classes are spending at least twice that per weekend. Most people don't get tire contingencies or tow money.


Greg

[ApexMotorsports]

Bottom line: most people send about $2,000 per weekend, even in "cheap" classes like FV. Running at the front costs even more. The upper formula classes are spending at least twice that per weekend. Most people don't get tire contingencies or tow money.


Greg

I can vouch for this. I have spent a good deal of time since 2005 as a formula car specialist mechanic. In 2006 we won the Pro Formula Mazda series (carbon tub car), and we spent about $500,000 to do it. There is NO way you are going to recoup your expenses in racing unless you have sponsors with deep pockets. Break it down, the Car costs 120k, which was only a small part of the total cost. Usually 2 mechanics that make between 35k on the low end to 60k, engineer that makes between 30-200k(skill and time dependent, as not all race engineers work for the teams full time), fuel for the hauler which gets expensive on a national series. The last team I worked for in Grand Am, as chief mechanic I remember the hotel / travel bills alone were about 80k for the year for a modest effort, single driver, 2 cars, 1 mechanic under me, data guy, part time engineer, team manager part time. It adds up quickly. That was while Mazda was still supporting the PFM series.

Now it's gone to F4/ F3 for the national competitions. The problem is that they say that with a car cost for formula 4 of under 50k. You can supposedly run the series for 120k, but the guys at the front are going to spend more money on engineering the car (7 post shaker (huge), tipping the car to findthe cog, moment of inertia testing, 3d scanning/ subsequent simulation, testing to verify model etc. If the series gets competitive and there is enough incentive, even having spec engines etc won't stop teams from spending. Even for a certain spec engine series, we never had a car go to a race without going on the dyno before we left to make sure everything was in top shape. But that infrastructure isn't free. Add to that that guys like me won't settle for JUST knowing the spring rate of the tire. That is where other tools that are far more expensive than most race shops equipment.

The old saying is "if you want to make a million dollars in racing, start with 4." holds true for most people.