Oversized Fit Pistons

[alangbaker]

The flow rate (and hence the HP) through the restrictor will be proportional to the increase in displacement of the engine with the overbore (roughly 0.6%). The restrictors do not "cap" the flow rate as many people think.....it's a fluid dynamics thing....

Indeed it IS a fluid dynamics thing, and before you can confidently say that it won't cap the flow, don't you need to see how close to a "choked flow" you are?

But more seriously, I think this is a tempest in a teapot.

Am I in favour of a rule that lets me repair a block I might otherwise have to replace? Yes.

Am I going to pull the engine out of my car and have the overbore done now in order to get something less than 1hp? Absolutely not.

Am I delighted if my competitors do it? Yes, actually.

The cost/benefit means they're spending a lot of time and money for a very small improvement rather than looking for better things to improve.

[Steve Bamford]

The flow rate (and hence the HP) through the restrictor will be proportional to the increase in displacement of the engine with the overbore (roughly 0.6%). The restrictors do not "cap" the flow rate as many people think.....it's a fluid dynamics thing....

So at 115 hp that still doesn’t equate to a full hp correct? I am debating your numbers only, not if this should be allowed or not.

[Keith Robinson]

As soon as you speak of 'vacuum, pulling air and sucking' I'm afraid you loose all credibility.

The extreme was the intent to show a logic flaw that the claim displacement does not matter on restricted engines. We both agree it does matter, we just disagree on how much increase is acceptable. I saw zero, some say .010. The curve is not as follows:
.005 - no effect.
.010 - no effect.
.015 - no effect.
.020 - no effect.
.025 - no effect......
.125 - 20 more hp.

It's not a question of if it makes a increase in power, but how much of an increase matters and is acceptable. I still say 0 given any increase will be the new standard.

An internal combustion (4-stroke in this case) engine doesn't quite work like that in relation to a restrictor. On the intake stroke a vacuum is created. That vacuum pulls air, not passively allow it to pass the restrictor. There is a force acting on it. If the volume on the vacuum end is increased, there is a larger vacuum force created, and will pull harder through the restrictor. The same is true if you look a the opposite in a pressure force.

Allow me to try an analogy. Take a drinking straw. That will be the restrictor. Blow/suck through it. Now, empty your lungs and give that thing a big pull. More air traveled through that straw, yet being the same size straw, right? Same idea here.

Like I said, the performance increase is debatable for sure. I understand that. But, no racer I know calls up their engine builder and says 'give me a moderate amount of horsepower, just what's reasonable'. We all say give me the most I can get and some! Given very similar rules in the past, we can assume history will repeat. This will only save money on the first rebuild for those with damaged cylinder walls, and maybe the savings there will be $500. Yet, this will likely (again, given history) require .010" to be the new standard.

The Kent is that historical lesson. After the rule for .005" came into effect, it saved me from sleeving my engine on a rebuild. Cool. That's a plus. But, two rebuilds later when the bores were worn too large, and it needed to be sleeved, .005 pistons were put back in. And if .010" pistons were allowed in the Kent, it's even more likely no one will go with standard pistons.

Performance increase debate aside, my concern is the perception. (Yes, I understand this thread perpetuates this but I feel it's more than perception.) Take for sale threads as a data point. Why do people list '.005"+' pistons as a positive attribute when selling an engine. Because people see that as an advantage.

I have nothing against the Honda other than how Honda (HPD) pushed it in as 'a few guys who work for HPD and put a Honda in a DB1 because we love FF, while those guys had zero HPD support". It's a great engine, and once you're in one life is much better and cheaper. My issue with this rule is it will not result in what the well-intended rule makers hoped. There is no reason to think this situation will be different than with any other oversized piston allowance.

[jchracer]

So at 115 hp that still doesn’t equate to a full hp correct? I am debating your numbers only, not if this should be allowed or not.

Correct. Less than 1 HP but as many have said, many racers will spend the money to get that 0.7HP. Others will bitch and moan that that was the reason why they were 4 seconds off the pace and park their cars.

[jchracer]

Indeed it IS a fluid dynamics thing, and before you can confidently say that it won't cap the flow, don't you need to see how close to a "choked flow" you are?

No, even if the air goes "sonic" or "choked" the flow rate and hence HP is still proportional to the pressure delta across the plate. A larger displacement will produce a larger pressure delta.

[EACIII]

No I stick with increased compressor. You are compressing a greater volume into the same space at TDC. There are even charts for "other" engines that list the CR increase with increased bore.

[reidhazelton]

As soon as you speak of 'vacuum, pulling air and sucking' I'm afraid you loose all credibility.

Physics are hard, I know.

A vacuum in a chamber will create a low pressure area - that area will pull/suck from any opening created in that chamber where there is a pressure difference. Put your hand over the carb or throttle body on a running engine. Feel that? That's called a vacuum.

What's hard to understand?

Fluid dynamics, as has been said. See post 45 if you need more.

I never claimed to be credible.

[reidhazelton]

No I stick with increased compressor. You are compressing a greater volume into the same space at TDC. There are even charts for "other" engines that list the CR increase with increased bore.

You're totally right. I didn't think that through.

[Steve Bamford]

Correct. Less than 1 HP but as many have said, many racers will spend the money to get that 0.7HP. Others will bitch and moan that that was the reason why they were 4 seconds off the pace and park their cars.

In FF this increase means absolutely nothing. Joel you have driven more then enough to understand in FF you can compete as long as you can stay in the draft. The extra half a hp isn’t going to make any difference at all on track, if you can’t stay near the front in the draft you don’t have a chance to win. A car with 2-3 less hp driven properly can stay at the front & win easily. We aren’t even talking numbers anywhere close to this. Perception only becomes reality to those who care to attempt not to understand.

[alangbaker]

No, even if the air goes "sonic" or "choked" the flow rate and hence HP is still proportional to the pressure delta across the plate. A larger displacement will produce a larger pressure delta.

When you increase the displacement, you lower the pressure on the downstream side of the restrictor. At sonic flow (in the local flow at the restrictor) lowering the pressure any further won't draw any more air because the change in pressure can't propagate upstream. Only increasing the pressure on the upstream side of the restrictor will increase the flow.

So flow and hence power won't increase in direct proportion to the increased pressure delta in general if you achieve it by increasing displacement.

In specific, I doubt that the flow through a 30.5mm orifice comes anywhere near sonic from the mass flow required for 120 hp. (Hmmm... 120hp requires something like 83CFM, which is 1.38 ft^3/s, which through a 30.5mm orifice means a flow of 173.2 ft/s... ...so yeah, only about 17% of the speed of sound before considering the drop in pressure through the orifice.

[alangbaker]

Physics are hard, I know.

A vacuum in a chamber will create a low pressure area - that area will pull/suck from any opening created in that chamber where there is a pressure difference. Put your hand over the carb or throttle body on a running engine. Feel that? That's called a vacuum.

What's hard to understand?

Fluid dynamics, as has been said. See post 45 if you need more.

I never claimed to be credible.

Do a little googling about vacuum pumps to lift water out of mines and such. There's a maximum distance you can "pull" the water, no matter how perfect a vacuum you have.

[LenFC11]

Am I delighted if my competitors do it? Yes, actually.

The cost/benefit means they're spending a lot of time and money for a very small improvement rather than looking for better things to improve.

I'm not an engine builder so cannot comment on the benefits or negatives of this rule... but what you are missing with this statement is if someone is willing to do this for 1HP they understand that optimizing every aspect of their package is important and you can bet they are doing exactly that

There is no one change in an FF that will make a huge difference, but many small changes add up to a better package.

Just because you are not willing to do so doesn't mean others won't.. and that is the difference between winning races in a very competitive field or being a grid fodder

[Daryl DeArman]

All other things being equal, .010 overbore calculates to almost 1 HP increase. To me, this is significant.

Less than 1% difference is significant in terms of HP?

In terms of FF1600, I'd take a 10# advantage and spot the other guy a single HP every day and twice on Sunday. Yet, I'm sure the vast majority of FF racers are spotting the winner more than 10#.

You aren't getting within 1 HP across the board in any spec class, most folks aren't going to see less than 1 HP difference between two back-to-back dyno pulls on the same Kent engine. Simply too many variables multiplied by margin of error in measuring devices utilized to calculate corrected HP.

[Daryl DeArman]

Just because you are not willing to do so doesn't mean others won't.. and that is the difference between winning races in a very competitive field or being a grid foddler

I'd be willing to bet that many FF1600/F2000 PRO series races aren't won by the guy with the most peak HP.

If you show up to a race, any race, and have 99+% of the HP as anybody in the field, you won't be grid fodder unless you're just a wanker.

[reidhazelton]

Do a little googling about vacuum pumps to lift water out of mines and such. There's a maximum distance you can "pull" the water, no matter how perfect a vacuum you have.

Very true, yet we're not even close to that distance in an engine. If this was not the case, I would not have sucked a rag into my go kart when I was 9. Heck, there are old European cars that use vacuum to operate the power windows and that is a whole lot farther away than the throttle body.

Joel is saying the same thing, I used simpler terms because big words scare me.

[jchracer]

In FF this increase means absolutely nothing. Joel you have driven more then enough to understand in FF you can compete as long as you can stay in the draft. The extra half a hp isn’t going to make any difference at all on track, if you can’t stay near the front in the draft you don’t have a chance to win. A car with 2-3 hp driven properly can stay at the front & win easily. We aren’t even talking numbers anywhere close to this. Perception only becomes reality to those who care to attempt not to understand.

I agree with you 100% Steve that here is no "real" performance advantage in FF race. I have also listened to many racers that are not as honest with themselves and will make the excuse of their engine being down 0.7 HP as to why they are slow. These same drivers are typically the most vocal and participation will suffer as a result.

[jharvey]

I'm not an engine builder so cannot comment on the benefits or negatives of this rule... but what you are missing with this statement is if someone is willing to do this for 1HP they understand that optimizing every aspect of their package is important and you can bet they are doing exactly that

There is no one change in an FF that will make a huge difference, but many small changes add up to a better package.

Just because you are not willing to do so doesn't mean others won't.. and that is the difference between winning races in a very competitive field or being a grid foddler

Besides the fact that many little changes make the whole, the other thing in play seems to be rule creep. Today, it's a proposal on piston size, but what's next?

In reading the Honda rules vs the Kent rules, there seems to have been a lot of thought put into the Honda rules.

When are the rules good enough?

[jchracer]

When you increase the displacement, you lower the pressure on the downstream side of the restrictor. At sonic flow (in the local flow at the restrictor) lowering the pressure any further won't draw any more air because the change in pressure can't propagate upstream. Only increasing the pressure on the upstream side of the restrictor will increase the flow.

So flow and hence power won't increase in direct proportion to the increased pressure delta in general if you achieve it by increasing displacement.

In specific, I doubt that the flow through a 30.5mm orifice comes anywhere near sonic from the mass flow required for 120 hp. (Hmmm... 120hp requires something like 83CFM, which is 1.38 ft^3/s, which through a 30.5mm orifice means a flow of 173.2 ft/s... ...so yeah, only about 17% of the speed of sound before considering the drop in pressure through the orifice.

Yes, I stand corrected.

[alangbaker]

Graciously said, sir!

I did a little more reading and it seems that you need to start considering the effect of the speed of sound when you reach about 0.3M, so with the effects of lowered pressure considered, it may be a valid consideration for these discussions.

[alangbaker]

I'm not an engine builder so cannot comment on the benefits or negatives of this rule... but what you are missing with this statement is if someone is willing to do this for 1HP they understand that optimizing every aspect of their package is important and you can bet they are doing exactly that

There is no one change in an FF that will make a huge difference, but many small changes add up to a better package.

Just because you are not willing to do so doesn't mean others won't.. and that is the difference between winning races in a very competitive field or being a grid foddler

But that's the thing: the guys who are optimizing everything are going to do it... ...unless it makes no sense from a dollars spent to advantage gained standpoint. But there are others out there who aren't optimizing everything, and if they get busy having their engines overbored when they should really be getting down to minimum weight... ...I'm good with that.

Less than 1% difference is significant in terms of HP?

In terms of FF1600, I'd take a 10# advantage and spot the other guy a single HP every day and twice on Sunday. Yet, I'm sure the vast majority of FF racers are spotting the winner more than 10#.

You aren't getting within 1 HP across the board in any spec class, most folks aren't going to see less than 1 HP difference between two back-to-back dyno pulls on the same Kent engine. Simply too many variables multiplied by margin of error in measuring devices utilized to calculate corrected HP.

I'd be willing to bet that many FF1600/F2000 PRO series races aren't won by the guy with the most peak HP.

If you show up to a race, any race, and have 99+% of the HP as anybody in the field, you won't be grid fodder unless you're just a wanker.

What you said. Twice

I agree with you 100% Steve that here is no "real" performance advantage in FF race. I have also listened to many racers that are not as honest with themselves and will make the excuse of their engine being down 0.7 HP as to why they are slow. These same drivers are typically the most vocal and participation will suffer as a result.

The people who want to whine are always going to find something to whine about. I brought a Honda out to my local club and the howls were deafening... ...from a few. One of the ones howling the loudest was someone who already wasn't coming out to race.

Besides the fact that many little changes make the whole, the other thing in play seems to be rule creep. Today, it's a proposal on piston size, but what's next?

In reading the Honda rules vs the Kent rules, there seems to have been a lot of thought put into the Honda rules.

When are the rules good enough?

Why should they ever be good enough? Why shouldn't we always be examining the rules to see how we can improve the game?

This change makes sense. It makes an already attractive package (and the idea of an engine that didn't need constant attention is VERY attractive to me and, I suspect, many others.) even better. Yes: I paid a good bit to get a Honda—a good bit less than I would have paid even one year earlier, but still a fair amount—but what I got for it has already paid me back in less downtime when I should be on track, less times on track when the engine just wasn't right, etc.

I did five race weekends this year and it would have been six if I hadn't come down with vertigo three days before the last weekend of the year, and I did nothing to the engine other than an initial oil change and regular inspections for leaks. If the car had arrived on time, I'm sure I could have done all eight weekends I had planned with the same amount of maintenance. And for a guy running his own program on his own, having an engine that needs so little TLC is a godsend.

Now add in that when the time comes, I can take my engine to a good friend of mine who's an engine builder (not an FF specialist, but even the Kent he built for me was pretty damn good) and we can just refresh it without having to buy and prep a new block?

Come on guys: this is good for our class.

[LenFC11]

I'm not saying the rule is good or bad.. nor am I saying rules creep benefits the community.

I am saying that the front running guys optimize their package in everyway possible.

[LenFC11]

I'd be willing to bet that many FF1600/F2000 PRO series races aren't won by the guy with the most peak HP.

If you show up to a race, any race, and have 99+% of the HP as anybody in the field, you won't be grid fodder unless you're just a wanker.

Dayrl

You took part of post and used it to say I'm only talking about doing the work necessary to gain 1hp in order to win races..

That is not what I said. The person/ team willing to optimize every aspect of his program is who is at the pointy end. So yes they will go for the extra hp but that's not the difference in winning and grid fodder

[Daryl DeArman]

I am saying that the front running guys optimize their package in every way possible.

I disagree.

They optimize their package to the point that they believe is necessary, and no more. We all run out of money, time and/or knowledge before everything is optimized, so we prioritize what gets our attention first. The +.005/+.010 engine is bird turd on the hood syndrome.

[Daryl DeArman]

You took part of post and used it to say I'm only talking about doing the work necessary to gain 1hp in order to win races..

That is not what I said. The person/ team willing to optimize every aspect of his program is who is at the pointy end. So yes they will go for the extra hp but that's not the difference in winning and grid fodder

Len, I agree that you didn't say the extra 1HP is the difference. I was simply pointing out that it's not necessary to win at any level to have the last 1% of HP available. Therefore the +.005"/+.010" thing is only a game changer to the engine builders.

[LenFC11]

Then why is every Kent built with the overbore ???

Agree it is not needed to win races, but anyone working to optimize their package is building their Kent with the larger pistons

Have you been to an east coast FRP race? Front running teams in F1600 and F2K are not leaving anything on the table.

I've been to one of your west coast F2K pro races and no disrespect intended but I don't think they are operating at the same level

[alangbaker]

Then why isn't every team running custom bodywork designed after extensive wind tunnel testing and/or CFD testing?

Answer: because the cost outweighs the benefit.

There are limits on everything based on cost/benefit calculations.

[Steve Bamford]

Reality as others said this is a not a true performance advantage that will change lap times or positions. What it will do is save a competitor multiple thousands of dollars. The perception issue is only an issue for the uneducated.

[LenFC11]

Then why isn't every team running custom bodywork designed after extensive wind tunnel testing and/or CFD testing?

Answer: because the cost outweighs the benefit.

There are limits on everything based on cost/benefit calculations.

You may not be.. but don't think no one else is. You would be wrong.

Because of the expense related to it they just aren't sharing that information with you

[John Robinson II]

My issue is that I don’t think it is in the “spirit” of the rules to increase the bore to the max to start with. I know many are not doing that, but would bet the farm that all the front runners are. Having been told by a Honda engine builder that is exactly what he was doing. Comment made was once oversized, just a new $800 block. Cheaper than sleeves in a Kent.

of my 5 Kent engines only 2 are oversized. Why do I have so many, because when people perceived they needed a Honda to run a “cheap” program the unloaded motors cheaply. Now the top teams are rebuilding their Honda’s every season. Where is the cost savings.

Being able to run in the draft does not mean you can pull out and pass the car in front. It just means you can hang, not win.

fwiw, the motor I consider to be best is not the one I am told is best on the dyno.

John

[John Robinson II]

Then why isn't every team running custom bodywork designed after extensive wind tunnel testing and/or CFD testing?

Answer: because the cost outweighs the benefit.

There are limits on everything based on cost/benefit calculations.

If had access and time I would. If I was running a vd then I would have Dan cambell’s or better yet polestar’s body work.

[jharvey]

Then why isn't every team running custom bodywork designed after extensive wind tunnel testing and/or CFD testing?

Answer: because the cost outweighs the benefit.

There are limits on everything based on cost/benefit calculations.

Overbore for pistons is cheap, in this analogy.

I know people that have spent extensive wind tunnel time on a freaking Crossle 32. And that's a 40 year old car. If you haven't seen many cars with custom bodywork, then you haven't seen many cars.

[Steve Bamford]

My issue is that I don’t think it is in the “spirit” of the rules to increase the bore to the max to start with. I know many are not doing that, but would bet the farm that all the front runners are. Having been told by a Honda engine builder that is exactly what he was doing. Comment made was once oversized, just a new $800 block. Cheaper than sleeves in a Kent.

of my 5 Kent engines only 2 are oversized. Why do I have so many, because when people perceived they needed a Honda to run a “cheap” program the unloaded motors cheaply. Now the top teams are rebuilding their Honda’s every season. Where is the cost savings.

Being able to run in the draft does not mean you can pull out and pass the car in front. It just means you can hang, not win.

fwiw, the motor I consider to be best is not the one I am told is best on the dyno.

John

John,

In my last few years of racing the only car in a pack I couldn’t pull out & pass didn’t have a Honda in it. With the correct exit off a corner & proper spacing to car in front, and you know when you nail it or not, I was able to make the pass on all Honda’s. The draft gives you a huge advantage as you know, if you time it right the extra few mph you carry will enable you to get by. Sure an underpowered car will have issues but Honda’s pretty have parity so not an issue & half a horse isn’t going to change that. That’s what racers want amoungst other things. I had blueprinted & non blueprinted mores in my car so safe to say I had a good comparison of engines against others.

Glad to see you are still out there proving people wrong that the Kent is still competitive & a winning at that.

[Daryl DeArman]

Have you been to an east coast FRP race? Front running teams in F1600 and F2K are not leaving anything on the table.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but they most certainly are. At some point the driver got off his rowing machine because he figured that was "good enough". At some point the car came off the set-up platform as "good enough". Nobody is spending every waking hour with the car on a 7-post shaker rig or in a tunnel. Every team wasn't out practicing yesterday, today and tomorrow.

At some point they ALL leave something on the table because they either ran out of money, time, knowledge or just felt it was "good enough" and each race only one team was correct;. the others left too much on the table.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Great let's give all the Fords a .030 over bore, because I have some worn blocks I don't want to pay to sleeve. After all, as the Honda folks are pointing out it is a very small HP increase, and even if I get a little more power it doesn't make any difference between winning or not. Sorry it sounds like BS to me. I have never heard of anyone sending an engine back and saying I really do not need that extra HP or so, please take it out.

[recaryob]

Someone please educate all of us “Honda haters” to what kind of savings we are actually talking about. A block is $800? Is that right? Assuming if you damaged the bore, you would most likely need new pistons in either case, to go with a new block or to go .010 over. You need to hone either. I’m assuming there’s some misc block prep that your pro builder did on the block, that you would need be duplicated on the new block as well.

So what is the cost of getting and rebuilding a new block $800 + what???? Can some provide an accurate number here?

its certainly not $3500-5000. That’s a new crate engine.

kents can resleeve, but that’s still $600-700. However most that resleeve also buy new pistons. $700. You aren’t going to put old pistons in a new bore are you? I’m not saying that if I have to pay $1400 then Honda guys should have to. I’m just making it relative for the class.

Whether it’s .25 hp or 1 hp gained everyone who wishes to send in a motor to have it blueprinted and thinks they will be a front runner will choose to pay the extra $500+ for oversized displacement. History through years and numerous racing classes has proven this. I’m not suggesting car owners with existing blueprinted engine will pull them and rebore. But when it does go back, it will happen, maybe not all, but those who think they can win. And there’s a lot more of us who think we can win, and would be willing to pay the extra, than there actually are. If you don’t think Hondas in FF will follow suit, please tell all of us why this will be any different.

Actually, in some other classes there is a weight penalty when an over bore is used. Why isn’t that being done here?

im trying to understand the economics here that would justify this and I would like someone to provide a detailed argument with real numbers to support the reasoning. Up until now most of what I’ve read is “you are stupid if you dont agree with this” or “you just hate Hondas”. Both of which are silly, defensive reactions.

While this my not be the intention, my suspicion is that we are wishing to ever so slightly change the Honda standard which will cost $500+ on every new pro built blueprinted engine. I know the measurements, I can do the math, regardless how small, competitors will choose to take advantage. Possibly widen or create a performance gap between crate/junk yard engines and pro built engines. So that those that don’t currently have .010 over can go .010 over and keep their damaged block.

So again, how much money are we saving on changing a block to go to .010 over?

Is it that you just don’t agree that history will repeat? Do you think that just as many front running cars in FRP or at the runoffs will have std pistons vs .010 over?

Forgive me, I’m just trying to understand the mindset of those that appear to have a different view point than my own. I would also like to evaluate what kind of savings it actually is, that is worth the POTENTIAL cost to the class of changing the standard and possible rules creep.

[Steve Bamford]

Great let's give all the Fords a .030 over bore, because I have some worn blocks I don't want to pay to sleeve. After all, as the Honda folks are pointing out it is a very small HP increase, and even if I get a little more power it doesn't make any difference between winning or not. Sorry it sounds like BS to me. I have never heard of anyone sending an engine back and saying I really do not need that extra HP or so, please take it out.

Roland what are the HP differences between a good Kent to a bad Kent? You have lots of posts connected to Jay Ivey so I am willing to bet you know the answer to that question. Be a Honda hater, reality is the Honda’s have true parity to one another on a level not comparable to the Kent. The HP of half a horse you are arguing over means nothing on the race track. Where is the BS in that?

[recaryob]

Be a Honda hater, reality is the Honda’s have true parity to one another on a level not comparable to the Kent.

you are exactly right. It’s one of the best things about the Honda. But what you propose is adding an extra modification that will separate a good Honda from a not so good one. Sure everyone can do it, but now it will cost a “little”bit more to have what the next guy has. You are widening the window of parity. From my view point, you are wishing to sacrifice parity for the cost of an engine block. Once.( you can only overbore once).

if this rule change is really about what’s best for the racer and the class, I would think this would be of concern.

so?

[Daryl DeArman]

After all, as the Honda folks are pointing out it is a very small HP increase, and even if I get a little more power it doesn't make any difference between winning or not. Sorry it sounds like BS to me. I have never heard of anyone sending an engine back and saying I really do not need that extra HP or so, please take it out.

Perspective Roland. It's not about sending the engine back telling Jay you don't need that 1 HP, it's about how come you didn't tell Jay to keep it at all costs until he finds you one more HP? Same reason you don't send it back for rebuild as soon as it's down 1%,

[Daryl DeArman]

Whether it’s .25 hp or 1 hp gained everyone who wishes to send in a motor to have it blueprinted and thinks they will be a front runner will choose to pay the extra $500+ for oversized displacement. History through years and numerous racing classes has proven this. I’m not suggesting car owners with existing blueprinted engine will pull them and rebore. But when it does go back, it will happen, maybe not all, but those who think they can win. And there’s a lot more of us who think we can win, and would be willing to pay the extra, than there actually are. If you don’t think Hondas in FF will follow suit, please tell all of us why this will be any different.

Honda users are the mostest smarter

im trying to understand the economics here that would justify this.

From whose perspective? The racer or the engine builder?

[Roland V. Johnson]

Steve, the differences in HP for all the engines going through my shop (rough count 14) in the last 5 years is 3.8 Hp. On the racetrack that is huge! There are a lot of Kents that have less that that by 4 or 5 HP usually because they have a very bad head. I am sure the very best that Jay has ever done has more, but I have never seen one or the dyno sheet from it. Saying that adding one more HP (which is a guess and is a little less than 1%) will make no difference in a battle between two equally prepared and driven cars makes me laugh.

Daryl spending probably $10, 000 to $15000 to convert a Ford to a Honda doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for most people.

I do not hate Hondas, I simply believe that they should have their own class, and left Formula Ford aone.