Where are we now

[ghickman]

Ok so here goes my ramble

For the first time racing in FB I had to sit out a race on Sunday at Portland. Honestly I'm not a good spectator and since my flight didn't leave for several hours I thought what the heck I'll spectate for once.

While playing spectator it really hit me how cool FB really is. Inexpensive donor bike motors, cars that simply scream around the track, and routinely can pull 3 g's in cornering. Racers building their own cars adding their take on aero rules, suspension geometry etc. just seems like the purest form of racing to me. See the early days of Formula Atlantic circa late 70's.

It's no secret an FB in the right hands is damn fast and I'll argue at most tracks can finish ahead of most P1 and Formula Atlantic cars.

So now the SCCA is looking very closely at class participation for 2019 Runoffs qualification and of course beyond that. I understand there is limited time at the RO's fitting all those classes into a small time window. It looks to me like they're moving the goal post so they can bring in newer classes and kill off others.

If there's still any of you FB drivers that still care about the health of this class I recommend you get informed about the SCCA class participation rules. Running regionals does not help our case at all which is opposite of the alternate path to the RO's we were pitched 3 years ago. I frankly never bought into that, I'm old school and remember when you actually had to qualify for the RO's.

So give me your thoughts.

[Thomas Copeland]

There some undeniable truths.

Race participation is declining. Not growing. Demographics show that the current generation are less interested in racing and more interested in video games, ATV's, speed boats, etc. Those younger generation with disposable incomes are jet setting around the world. Not sitting in a race car. When our generation dies out chances are this sport will too. In some ways it definitely will. It certainly won't look the same that's for sure. The glory days of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. That's gone. It doesn't even look like the 90's anymore.

SCCA thinks it will revive itself by bringing in new classes and disenfranchising the current members. They will ultimately fail. Why? Who's going to drive these cars? Current members? They are pushing us out. Pissing us off. Current generation? They're not interested. Too many yacht parties to attend.

Over the winter I did something I thought I never would do again. I got back into a racing. I did it because I needed something to novitiate me to get back in good health again and I hate gym memberships. And it has. I've lost 20 pounds.

No point flailing around about it anymore. Jump in your car. Drive like hell and get it all out of your system. Participation numbers or not. We're screwed. Our time is limited. Enjoy it while you can.

[RobLav]

Wow. Thomas is in the exact spot I'm in!

Stick with the Regional Plan. Stay way from those Majors. Screw the runoffs. I've been looking at FB cars again.

[Stan Clayton]

So, where ARE the existing FB cars racing? I see on SCCA's participation page that FB is sitting on 47 entries after 32 of 35 Majors have been run. That is an average of 1.5 entries per event, far short of the 4.0 that will be required to maintain a spot in the Runoffs. I looked at last year's Regional Participation page, where the entire entry total was just 43 for the entire year. Are they racing with the east coast series?

In any case, while some of you aren't interested in the Runoffs, and that's fine, there are some serious competitors who are (Gary, JRO, etc.). I agree with Gary that they are awesome cars in every sense of the word, but for FB to remain viable on the national scene it needs a stable class to race in. Should we be proactive and ask to be added to the FA class spec lines? FA has 149 entries this year (4.65 average over 32 races). I doubt folks are interested to go slower and be paired with FC/FE/FM, but that might be viable as well. Thoughts?

[Jnovak]

So, where ARE the existing FB cars racing? I see on SCCA's participation page that FB is sitting on 47 entries after 32 of 35 Majors have been run. That is an average of 1.5 entries per event, far short of the 4.0 that will be required to maintain a spot in the Runoffs. I looked at last year's Regional Participation page, where the entire entry total was just 43 for the entire year. Are they racing with the east coast series?

In any case, while some of you aren't interested in the Runoffs, and that's fine, there are some serious competitors who are (Gary, JRO, etc.). I agree with Gary that they are awesome cars in every sense of the word, but for FB to remain viable on the national scene it needs a stable class to race in. Should we be proactive and ask to be added to the FA class spec lines? FA has 149 entries this year (4.65 average over 32 races). I doubt folks are interested to go slower and be paired with FC/FE/FM, but that might be viable as well. Thoughts?

merge with FA and allow 1300cc motors at 1100 lbs
Just my thoughts because most of the ow classes are in long term trouble IMO.

[ghickman]

It's sad the participation level has dropped to where it is now. Many cars just sitting side lined for various reasons.

FA would be my choice to be paired up with. FA has sort of been the class where some of the "legacy" (ie Pro Mazda) cars have ended up. The addition of Pro Mazda on the west coast has added to the FA participation. There's a series that is put on by the Formula Car Challenge that runs SCCA Majors races on the west coast. They typically field 10 plus cars so it's easy to see why participation has gone up for FA.

I always get the sense that the Formula Car Challenge guys don't like when I run with them, probably because we make the Pro Mazda's look well.... kinda slow. Almost always when I ask the SCCA to run with them they tell me no you run with the P1/P2 wings and things field.

There's an F1000 series running on the East Coast but sadly they adopted to run Regional Races so they could get their own run group. A neat concept but has artificially lowered our even already low numbers down.

Stan it was good seeing you at Sonoma and Jay I miss you on the FB forum, both of you have always been big supporters of this class.

[Stan Clayton]

merge with FA and allow 1300cc motors at 1100 lbs
Just my thoughts because most of the ow classes are in long term trouble IMO.

Yep, TWO spec lines...1000cc at 1000 lbs and 1345cc at 1100 lbs. P1 engine rules for the 1 liter engines, and P2 engine rules for the Busa engines?

[Jnovak]

Yep, TWO spec lines...1000cc at 1000 lbs and 1345cc at 1100 lbs. P1 engine rules for the 1 liter engines, and P2 engine rules for the Busa engines?

sounds great to me Stan.

What do the FB competitors think?

[Stan Clayton]

sounds great to me Stan.

What do the FB competitors think?

Yes, that's what I'm asking too.

[Thomas Copeland]

The reason why the FB car counts in the majors are down this year is because a lot of us are running the regionals as part of the NAF1000 Championship. I've haven't been in my car this year for various reasons (mechanical) but trying to make the next NAF1000 race at Summit Point if I can. A regional. If not that then the next at Road Atlanta. Another regional.

Merging with FA might be a viable solution to keep FB in the runoffs if it comes to that. But there's a whole lot that has to happen before that day comes. And there might be a day in court before that day comes too.

I wish I could tell you all more and I have edited this post several times to tone it down because I don't want to reveal what's happening behind the scenes. But if the SCCA thinks we are just going to lay down while they bend us over they better think again. All I can tell you is we have a viable case. While I'm all ready to just unload on them there are others asking me to wait and see if we can talk some sense into the SCCA first. But I'm ready. I'm that pissed. But I've agreed to hold fire for now.

That said I have nothing against the car count criteria itself as long as it's done correctly and with proper notice and not the slimy, sneaky, low life, weaselly, way they unleashed it on us. Backdating the criteria by a year and half. Whoever at the SCCA who thought that garbage up ought to resign now.

[bill gillespie]

merge with FA and allow 1300cc motors at 1100 lbs
Just my thoughts because most of the ow classes are in long term trouble IMO.

Jay,
I’ll probably be burned at the stake for this , but add New Pro Mazda, F3 America’s, Busa powered FB, DSR spec 1000cc FB, modern F3, Ralt RT4 with BDG, etc.......minor spec line tweets and go racing.....new version of Formula Libre.....It would be a hoot to see full grids of better mousetrap...leave the Pro Series for the purists.

Nomex ready,
Bill

[bill gillespie]

Hey Gary,

How would a a busa powered Phoenix @1100lb compare with your current car.....A little more torque might be just the ticket....seems like a potential Beast .

regards,
Bill

[bill gillespie]

Hey Gary,

How would a a busa powered Phoenix @1100lb compare with your current car.....A little more torque might be just the ticket....seems like a potential Beast .

regards,
Bill

[ghickman]

Hey Gary,

How would a a busa powered Phoenix @1100lb compare with your current car.....A little more torque might be just the ticket....seems like a potential Beast .

regards,
Bill

Two words.....STUPID FAST

[reidhazelton]

I have a pretty high threshold for crazy, but a FF chassis (that's what a lot of FBs are) at 1000lbs or 1100lbs classed with an FA such as an 016 at 1400lbs seems sketchy to me. At those speeds, I'd want to be in something more stout than an FF chassis if an 016 nose cone is coming at me. You'd also have to speed up the FBs or slow down the FAs, and slowing them down isn't going to happen.

Racing in the same group, is a very different than racing in the same class.

I think a better option (get your flamers ready) is to slow FBs to FC speeds and merge those two classes. New Pro Mazda and F3 America’s can get lumped into FA.

[bill gillespie]

Hey Reid,
I don’t think the biggest threat is from an 016 spearing a FF, FB, etc, but I get your point.....seems to me that mixing P cars with open wheel has caused the majority of the problems...

I don’t know the proper class mix, but if we don’t consolidate somewhat, I’m afraid open wheel is dying a slow death...

regards,
Bill

[Wright D]

I have a pretty high threshold for crazy, but a FF chassis (that's what a lot of FBs are) at 1000lbs or 1100lbs classed with an FA such as an 016 at 1400lbs seems sketchy to me. At those speeds, I'd want to be in something more stout than an FF chassis if an 016 nose cone is coming at me. You'd also have to speed up the FBs or slow down the FAs, and slowing them down isn't going to happen.

Racing in the same group, is a very different than racing in the same class.

I think a better option (get your flamers ready) is to slow FBs to FC speeds and merge those two classes. New Pro Mazda and F3 America’s can get lumped into FA.

Why not just add more side impact protection by taking the current side impact rules (2 layers of Kevlar) and increasing it to something that might actually help stop an offending FA. Increasing the number from two layers to a 10 layer (about 1/8" thick) Kevlar layup would not add much cost or weight, and make the class much much safer. Then we can run "STUPID FAST" as Gary puts it.

Gary is right, most places we go, the Phoenix is already faster than the FA's we run against.

The class also needs to tune up the the requirements to include a REAL impact attenuator, like the ones on every Phoenix.

I don't want to see F1000 die. I personally have spent too much of my life's energy on the class and design for it to just evaporate.

[bill gillespie]

Why not just add more side impact protection by taking the current side impact rules (2 layers of Kevlar) and increasing it to something that might actually help stop an offending FA. Increasing the number from two layers to a 10 layer (about 1/8" thick) Kevlar layup would not add much cost or weight, and make the class much much safer. Then we can run "STUPID FAST" as Gary puts it.

Gary is right, most places we go, the Phoenix is already faster than the FA's we run against.

The class also needs to tune up the the requirements to include a REAL impact attenuator, like the ones on every Phoenix.

I don't want to see F1000 die. I personally have spent too much of my life's energy on the class and design for it to just evaporate.

. I personally chose the 016 over 014 and FB for safety.....you can pour a BIG seat, etc.....Adding side Kevlar, proper attenuator would help FB considerably....can the nose protection also be improved ?

[Thomas Copeland]

Originally posted by WrightD

I don't want to see F1000 die. I personally have spent too much of my life's energy on the class and design for it to just evaporate.

Dustin, it looks like there are strong powers high up in the SCCA that would like nothing better than to see F1000 die. Their attitude toward our class has been expressed to us by them. Also, we don't fit into their pro series (F3, F4, etc.) formula car dumping ground agenda. That's true of other classes as well, but their aim appears to be to minimize FB first, or if they can, probably eliminate us all together. Maybe making us part of another class could be part of their plan. That's what is behind this car count criteria. Their press release talks about transparency. Transparency my a$$!

[reidhazelton]

Dustin, it looks like there are strong powers high up in the SCCA that would like nothing better than to see F1000 die. Their attitude toward our class has been expressed to us by them. Also, we don't fit into their pro series (F3, F4, etc.) formula car dumping ground agenda. That's true of other classes as well, but their aim appears to be to minimize FB first, or if they can, probably eliminate us all together. Maybe making us part of another class could be part of their plan. That's what is behind this car count criteria. Their press release talks about transparency. Transparency my a$$!

As a member of the FSRAC, this has never been expressed to us from the BoD or CRB.

What has been mentioned,and mentioned publicly, is feedback from member surveys. Too many classes, too few entries, smalls grids, more and more mixed race groups. Everyone wants bigger car counts, fewer classes, and less mixed racing until it's their class that gets merged. Don't touch my class, change someone else'es. What happens when everyone says that? Well, you get the 4.0 rule. Survival of the fittest, and the outcome is solely in the hands of the class participants. Or, do we keep having classes at the Runoffs with 9 cars?

[reidhazelton]

Hey Reid,
I don’t think the biggest threat is from an 016 spearing a FF, FB, etc, but I get your point.....seems to me that mixing P cars with open wheel has caused the majority of the problems...

I don’t know the proper class mix, but if we don’t consolidate somewhat, I’m afraid open wheel is dying a slow death...

regards,
Bill

I very much agree, Bill.

FA
FB
FC
FE
FM
FF
F5/6
FV

My take;
FA/F3
FB/FC
FE/FM/F4
FF/F5, maybe blend the rules to allow F5 to have shocks and FF to have bike engines.
FV

Also, eliminate Majors/Regional structure.

But, to that, the double edge sword is what happened with S2000. Merged the classes, and all of those cars left. There is a large concern merging classes will have the 'S2000 effect'.

I see no easy solution.

[Thomas Copeland]

I see a very easy solution. Get rid of the backdating and "discreation" clause in the car count criteria. Don't start car count criteria until 2019. Problem now it isn't about survival of the fittest. The real purpose is quite nefarious.

[bill gillespie]

I very much agree, Bill.

FA
FB
FC
FE
FM
FF
F5/6
FV

My take;
FA/F3
FB/FC
FE/FM/F4
FF/F5, maybe blend the rules to allow F5 to have shocks and FF to have bike engines.
FV

Also, eliminate Majors/Regional structure.

But, to that, the double edge sword is what happened with S2000. Merged the classes, and all of those cars left. There is a large concern merging classes will have the 'S2000 effect'.

I see no easy solution.

attracting some crossover might be helpful......add the PFM18 to FA

add USF2000 somewhere....FC ?

I don’t think the FB guys will ever agree to a slowdown

we gotta do somethin’
Bill

[Wright D]

If we had to get consolidated, and if given a choice, I'd rather get lumped into FA then FC.

[reidhazelton]

If we had to get consolidated, and if given a choice, I'd rather get lumped into FA then FC.

Thanks Dustin. I have a question, and it's not a loaded one. Just looking for input out of personal curiosity.

*IF*, FB gets merged...is FA or FC better?

If FB gets lumped to FA, I feel there are significant safety concerns as previously mentioned. You had a good suggestion to add impact panels and attenuators. For the sake of argument, let's say those make them safe compared to an 016 at 300# more. Second issue, is speeding the cars up to FA speeds. I understand at some tracks some FBs are faster than some FAs. But, with equal drivers an 016 will beat an FB just about everywhere. That said, speeding up an FB will have costs.

If FB gets lumped into FC, the cost to do so is much less; just a restrictor. The safety issue is moot as it's tube frame verse tube frame, and they are in some cases, identical chassis.

FA merge
Pros: Get to go faster.
Cons: Added cost to bring up safety, more expensive engines, more engine wear, eliminates 'low buck' origins of FB.

FC merge
Pros: Low cost option, longer engine life, similar chassis in class and similar safety aspects
Cons: Takes out some of the sparkle, slowed down significantly

Which option will keep, or maybe ever attract, more entries? Or what will push more people out; added cost, or slower lap times?

To add a wrench, if FA numbers are lower than FB numbers, would it be logical to assume FA would be the one to have to get folded into FB?

[JakeL]

Misc responses:

* I'm in the "let us go play in FA" camp. I just ran over last weekend at Mont-Tremblant, and spent the weekend hassling some not-so-well driven 014 and 016 FA's on bad gearing, old R35 Hoosiers and a god-knows-what setup. Had a ball, and I'm dead rusty.

* If that doesn't work out, I'll go back to my roots and play in P1 or P2, and then I can also run the car with other clubs that are not open-wheel friendly. In my area, SCCA open wheel is nearly dead anyway - 8-10 cars per run group, that kind of thing.

* I'm not totally sure that the 'busa motor would result in a faster car, although the dig out of slow corners would be sweet. They make similar HP than the current liter motors, more torque, but also weigh quite a lot more. At least in DSR ~8 years ago, the busa cars were never as quick as the liter cars.

* the "Low Buck" ship sailed from FB ages ago, but it's sure still better than CSR/DSR/P1 was back in the day, and miles better than true FA's.


As a very infrequent competitor these days, I am reminded anew every time I get in the car how special these are to drive. God what fun. Everything else feels like a chuck wagon in comparison.

-Jake

[JakeL]

Had an additional thought - Gary and others that have run your FB with FA's (and beaten them) - what's your observation on the relative strength of the cars?

The few races I've run with them, I've always got them beat handily, or at least in the same ballpark, in the corners, but they get out of corners better (initial torque on-throttle out of the corner) and then are just gone on the straight. I can't hang with a well-driven one, personally - I gave up ~3 seconds a lap to the guy that won Runoffs a few years back at Pueblo, but I also ain't winning the Runoffs either.

Reversing my statement above, it could possibly be that a good busa motor of some description would be all you needed to get the cars close enough that you could go and have some fun?

-Jake

[Jnovak]

Hey Reid,
I don’t think the biggest threat is from an 016 spearing a FF, FB, etc, but I get your point.....seems to me that mixing P cars with open wheel has caused the majority of the problems...

I don’t know the proper class mix, but if we don’t consolidate somewhat, I’m afraid open wheel is dying a slow death...

regards,
Bill

truth except for the SLOW part imo

[reidhazelton]

Thanks Jake. Good points.

[SEComposites]

This may well be a stupid question but here goes! Why does it matter if FB is merged with another formula? Surely it’ll still be an FB class within FA or FC? All of these classes run together in the same races anyway. It’s not like any one class has it’s own dedicated run group. A merged FB and FA would still produce a nation champ in each wouldn’t it? Just curious.

[Thomas Copeland]

whoa whoa whoa whoa....

FB already has a messy problem finding parity via restrictors with the different engines philosophies and now you want to try and make that work with FC?

I think a better and easier option to to start looking at combining the different tin top classes first......so why don't we start there? Like maybe combining F production with something.....like maybe with B spec, they are suffering aren't they? .....or better yet H Production.....I mean F and H, they are practically twins aren't they? (can anybody really tell the difference between these two?) ......oh that's right!!! I know why FP is off limits.......yeahhhhhhhhhhh......

[Jnovak]

Imo the SCCA has way too many classes.

[Stan Clayton]

I don’t know the proper class mix, but if we don’t consolidate somewhat, I’m afraid open wheel is dying a slow death.

truth except for the SLOW part imo

The numbers don't appear to support this conclusion. Setting aside last year's extraordinary participation due to the Runoffs at Indy, the formula classes aren't dying. The FB guys need to switch their shadow championship back to Majors to bring their numbers back up in a visible way. But other than that I don't see us dying. The growth is certainly elsewhere in the Club, but don't give up!

[reidhazelton]

whoa whoa whoa whoa....

FB already has a messy problem finding parity via restrictors with the different engines philosophies and now you want to try and make that work with FC?

I think a better and easier option to to start looking at combining the different tin top classes first......so why don't we start there? Like maybe combining F production with something.....like maybe with B spec, they are suffering aren't they? .....or better yet H Production.....I mean F and H, they are practically twins aren't they? (can anybody really tell the difference between these two?) ......oh that's right!!! I know why FP is off limits.......yeahhhhhhhhhhh......

Because FP is in the top half of the classes. FP and EP run together and often are already the largest race groups. And a BSpec car is days slower than an FP. That would be like putting an FB with FF. HP is likely in the same boat as FB. Now, GTL and HP...maybe that would fit.

The closed wheel groups are not immune from consolidation, but they are also some of the more well subscribed classes.

[Jnovak]

I have a pretty high threshold for crazy, but a FF chassis (that's what a lot of FBs are) at 1000lbs or 1100lbs classed with an FA such as an 016 at 1400lbs seems sketchy to me. At those speeds, I'd want to be in something more stout than an FF chassis if an 016 nose cone is coming at me. You'd also have to speed up the FBs or slow down the FAs, and slowing them down isn't going to happen.

Racing in the same group, is a very different than racing in the same class.

I think a better option (get your flamers ready) is to slow FBs to FC speeds and merge those two classes. New Pro Mazda and F3 America’s can get lumped into FA.

if FBs are merged into FA then you could use or require the use of rivited abd bonded anti intrusion panels. This would make the cars unbelievably strong and safe.

[reidhazelton]

The numbers don't appear to support this conclusion.

Compare the open wheel numbers to the closed wheel numbers......

[Jnovak]

Thanks Dustin. I have a question, and it's not a loaded one. Just looking for input out of personal curiosity.

*IF*, FB gets merged...is FA or FC better?

If FB gets lumped to FA, I feel there are significant safety concerns as previously mentioned. You had a good suggestion to add impact panels and attenuators. For the sake of argument, let's say those make them safe compared to an 016 at 300# more. Second issue, is speeding the cars up to FA speeds. I understand at some tracks some FBs are faster than some FAs. But, with equal drivers an 016 will beat an FB just about everywhere. That said, speeding up an FB will have costs.

If FB gets lumped into FC, the cost to do so is much less; just a restrictor. The safety issue is moot as it's tube frame verse tube frame, and they are in some cases, identical chassis.

FA merge
Pros: Get to go faster.
Cons: Added cost to bring up safety, more expensive engines, more engine wear, eliminates 'low buck' origins of FB.

FC merge
Pros: Low cost option, longer engine life, similar chassis in class and similar safety aspects
Cons: Takes out some of the sparkle, slowed down significantly

Which option will keep, or maybe ever attract, more entries? Or what will push more people out; added cost, or slower lap times?

To add a wrench, if FA numbers are lower than FB numbers, would it be logical to assume FA would be the one to have to get folded into FB?

Reid, do you remember how and why FB was created as a separate class?

[reidhazelton]

Reid, do you remember how and why FB was created as a separate class?

The whole Jeremy Hill getting shafted at the Runoffs deal? Before my time, but I've heard about it.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The whole Jeremy Hill getting shafted at the Runoffs deal? Before my time, but I've heard about it.

Do tell the justification for a class which by the accounts here is failing and has had the shortest life of any class yet.

A lot of conflicting info here.

People complain about the cost of the majors,
and run series that specifically run at regionals,
yet you're quoting majors participation numbers as proof of it's failing?

I don't see any numbers that say how many cars are actively racing.

[Jnovak]

The whole Jeremy Hill getting shafted at the Runoffs deal? Before my time, but I've heard about it.

the point was that the fc guys did not want to race against the motorcycle powered cars, so they created a new class. Thr current FC competitors wil not want them back.