Joe I forgot one thing.Why would I want to rent my car to you for what it costs.That wouldn't be very smart for me .But nice try.I will rent you a car if you take it to the track and hire Gibby to work on it.It rents for $1400.00.You have to pay entry fees and travel costs,motel and I'll supply 2 cycle old tires for the weekend.I'll rent you a FC for $2000.00.Come on down to Texas we got some out a sight bargains on cars!
Joe I forgot one thing.Why would I want to rent my car to you for what it costs.That wouldn't be very smart for me .But nice try.I will rent you a car if you take it to the track and hire Gibby to work on it.It rents for $1400.00.You have to pay entry fees and travel costs,motel and I'll supply 2 cycle old tires for the weekend.I'll rent you a FC for $2000.00.Come on down to Texas we got some out a sight bargains on cars!
Mike,
I think you're pretty close on the numbers. I have been figuring about $300/hr for the engine. Of course that includes doing the head a couple of times during the life of the engine before rebuild. I would like to hear numbers on the engine. I may have pulled this out of thin air, or maybe from the Zetec's, but I've heard something like 200 hours between rebuilds. If that's the case, the cost per hour would drop to about $25, compared to $300. Pretty significant for someone that wants to so a lot of testing, lapping, renting, etc. Also, according to the site put up on this thread (what were you thinking, Dave...LOL), the tires would last 12 sessions without a drop in performance. Even at $800 a set, you would be at $200 a typical weekend. Of course you would also have expensive wings and wheels to bend, and the gearbox sounds like a total unknown. Just food for thought, and from the pictures they are a pretty face! Dave says they are big, though (like, really big, he said).
PS - I think you would make a great contribution on the BOD. For an important position like that, you'd probably have to let your hair grow, though!! LMAO!
Ok here's my 2 cents. FF is not cheap to race if you want to be up front in a National. It can be relatively cheap in Regionals or if you just want to be in the race and not very competitive. Formula Ford cannot be raced as cheaply as a spec car if you want to run up front.I know this new car is FA at the moment but it's only a matter of time before it has it's own class in my opinion. How much does a Runoffs winning caliber FF chassis and motor cost? I expect that it's well over the price of the spec car. How much testng will it take to get the Runoff's caliber car into that sweetspot it will need to compete? Add that price in as well. The Spec car is attractive because everyone is close to equal and things won't change. I know no 2 cars are equal but they should be close. At least you have a chance.
Some of you act like FF is static. I say the price of running up front and the equiptment needed just keeps escalating. In 1984 we pretty much had a spec FF series, at least at the Runoffs, lots of DB-1s with the odd Reynard, Citation and Van Diemen. Is a 1984 spec DB-1 competetive today? No. I'm going to list some of the things that are needed now to run up front that were rare if they even existed back in 1984. Gun drilled half shafts, lightened CVs, Aluminum diff carriers, droop limiters, 3 way adjustable shocks, data acquisition, radios, Aluminum heads, 5 1/2 inch clutches, and drilled rotors all come to mind. My 1985 Van Diemen has none of those items. Even with those improvements it doesn't appear that a DB-1 could keep up with the current front running chassis. My point is our rules may be static but there is always a new item needed to run up front. Then you have to go testing with that new item. You might say we reached the end of the development of the class. I bet some people said the same thing when they saw the DB-1 in 1983. FF just keeps getting more expensive to run up front because the motors require a lot of maintenance, the tire costs are high, the testing needed to run up front and the continually new parts available. Also There may be a new chassis next year that will make your current one obsolete.
I don't know how the Spec car was put through and if it wasn't done right that bothers me. But I think this club needed it. The FF contingent doesn't seem to be able to agree on rule changes, our cars are getting long in the tooth and new FFs are expensive. I've always thought it was funny to see the cars in production classes, MG Midgets, Turners, 356 and 914 Porsches and then hear how the SCCA is graying and can't get new young members. None of the kids have probably ever seen one of those cars on the street, they can't relate. Well folks, the DB-1 is 19 years old. Formula Ford had a great run but maybe we should go vintage racing.
I'm with you, Mark. Your argument is realistic, and I think will prove right in the long run. I'm just not sure enough to write the big check right now - maybe in about a year or so if the dust begins to settle.....
Noah Smith<BR>American AdVantage Motorsports<BR>Marketing Director/Driver<BR>2002 ACS "Laps for Life" Program
You guys have strayed from the comments Chris made earlier. And he's venturing into deep water at that with some of you guys!!
His comments run couter to many of you that it doesn't make you a poor driver because you can't tinker and engineer away. In fact if I read right he supports the notion that this less tinkering may in fact make you a better driver as you have to work harder with what you have, rather than relying on the tweek-of-the-week part. I tend to side with him on it as you all know, but I also see the value in letting people learn to max what they can with 'open shock' for example. I don't however see how this open policy can be stated that it makes you a better driver any more than the opposite can be true. You can become a smarter driver perhaps, but then again so too do the others you race against if they are allowed the same latitude.
As for costs, I think people can do regional races for less than a grand a weekend if they really put some effort into it. Sure more is nice, but how big are the paychecks?
Ok, I have to ask. Why don’t you embrace the Duratec engine in FF? I know it would save a lot of money for the racers but I know racers are all very rich so money is no object!
Blast away but remember to be nice!
I think we've nearly all agreed that the retro fit idea to a current car is simply NOT the way to go. Yes, there are a few hold outs on this one too, but most of us are realistic in teh cost vs return of such a project.
Yes there is a way to breathe life into FF with the Kent engine.There are many aftermarket parts being worked on that will lower the cost and increase the reliability.I am going to suggest to the Comp. Board they bring back the Tire Rule.We don't have to have a new engine to bring motor costs down.I personally have much invested in the Kent but if I thought there was no way to decrease the cost of running the Kent engine I would opt for a new motor.If you have suggestions or ideas about the Kent go to the technical page.Back to topic the Spec car will not bring the costs of racing competitively down to less than a FF.FM is not cheaper than FF and it's engine lasts for 3 years or more.But to be competitive you have to have new tires every race.FM tires are more expensive than FF tires.The costs of getting there (travel,etc.)is the same.The Mazda is going to loose value as SCCA has targeted it's new car to compete for FM customers.The FM is $40k and the Spec car is $26.9k.The FM looks dated and SCCA new car looks like a spec F1 car.What do you think FM customers are going to do.This new car is going to dilute FM,FC and FF.I am glad I don't own a FM because I think that the class has been targeted because SCCA Enterprises was not allowed to rebuild the motors.Just a thought.
Reinstating the FF tire rule is a good idea. I never understood who supported it going away. When I wrote my area director about the rule change and complained about the cost increase I was basically told that racing is expensive, if you can't afford it go away. I went away.
There was no benefit in doing away with that rule except to the tire companies. I know in the Northeast we had a gentleman's agreement to run only one set a weekend. I don't know if that still stands. Of course the Runoffs were a different matter.
Here's an idea, why not specify a hard compound tire like in CF in addition to one set per weekend? That may entice more CFs to show up at Nationals, they would be on a more level playing field without having to buy another set of tires. There would be no harm to FF since everyone would have the same tire. They would last longer and perhaps tire expenses would go down. The lap records currently standing would probably never be broken again but does that matter?
Just a thought but at the least I do support reinstating the tire rule.
$300 per hour for a Kent motor. Not only that, but a motor that puts out only 120hp.
Folks, that sums up the current FF problem.
[size="1"][ October 01, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]
Timmy<BR>
I hear that the HP number is looking to be 175HP.
Now, this is going to be fun!
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
I guess the reason for the different views is that we all probably have conflict of interests. We are all probably in different points of our life, we have different experiences and neither opinion is better or worse.... but we should all be open to others ways of thinking.
Here are my interests:
I would like to race professionally but I find out that 95% of the time (in this age) you have to be rich or have someone that is rich put you through it. I like open wheel races and Formula Ford is about the only class I can get into on a minimal budget and get onto the track. Maybe buying a project car isn't the most economic decision but I didn't have the initial money nor did I want to wait around till I could afford a new car. I like Formula Ford, and the people in the class are great but I don't want to stay here forever. I want to gain driving experience, get better and move on. I never want to get rid of my Formula Ford but if I don't move on at some point I will always be a club racer. Since I don't have a lot of money to throw around in Formula Ford I just want to get out on the track and get experience. Therefore I hate throwing money into areas that seem to go into a black hole. Now if I was going to do Formula Ford for the rest of my life I would probably have a different outlook.
When I went to ICP's engineering class this summer they talked about how you can just make almost one full season on a set of tires. They say you need 3 or 4 sets of tires to start with and then continue to rotate them. They said that most of the time people have to buy tires every race or two is because of incorrect setup on the chassis or they just have the money to blow. If you are running for a national championship or you have plenty of money getting a full set of tires each race or two is the way to go as every little bit counts.
A spec treaded will probably equalize the field more and lower costs (depending on price) but racing on a slick is more fun..... they run treaded tires over seas and there are old cars still competing at the top. I see rocker arms cars running with pushrod cars all the time.
I do support the idea that letting people tinker with the chassis can help them understand the engineering side more and thus help them get closer to the car's limit. I'm just saying if you put rules into place to limit the amount of "adjustments" the focus moves away from engineering and more toward the driver. Now there still will be tweaks that will make the cars faster and I think that is fine but as we know the more and more engineering and technology we put into the cars the less we get away from competitive racing. Top drivers in the world are of the same order of driving ability but that seldom makes close racing. Since technology keeps increasing and prices are not going down the fields get smaller and the races get more predictable... aka F1. Sure our cars are a drop in a bucket compared to F1 but so are our budgets.
So yes I a spec car may be more expensive in some aspects but at least the technology is equal among all drivers. Sure we all may not like FM as it is older chassis technology but their fields are tight and they are on TV... and we are not…. At least in the US.
I guess it just comes back to the same notion I started out as... if you are weekend warrior without aspirations to becoming a professional racer then the current "formula" works for you and that's cool. But we shouldn't discount the idea that a spec car could still survive for sometime and may benefit some drivers.
It doesn't have to last forever to still be a success. If it works for those who drive it and they get what they want out of it then that's fine. Still as a weekend warrior there are changes to FF that can save us all money in the long run no matter what your future holds.
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
mike,
actually the cost of a set of FF tires is exactly the same as a set of FM tires, for hoosiers anyway. for goodyears, the FF tires can run from $6 less, to $10 more, depending on which fronts you run. md
[size="1"][ October 02, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: mark defer ][/size]
Hey Mark- Since you are a FC guy, how do you feel about the devaluation of your chassis and the SCCA
selling this Spec car?Baytos is responsible for both or least partially responsible anyway.Do you think that FC numbers will be hurt by this new car?I think it will hurt FF,FC and FM.
mike,
actually, i think the only class that's really gonna get stomped on is FM. if you're a spec car type guy, which would you rather have, a FM, or the new car. in that respect, it's better for everybody cause the tanks will be gone. in the future, when you tangle with a spec car, the MAD doctrine will apply.
i don't think it's going to have much affect on FF. in my mind, FF guys are class lifers, kind of like sports racer guys. you see the same guys in the class every year. you don't see many young guys coming into the class. what that says for FF as you guys get older, i don't know. but i don't think the spec car is going to affect FF much.
as for FC, it probably will affect us a bit more for two reasons. the FC guys don't seem to be as wedded to the class as FF guys. secondly, we do see a few young guys coming into the class every year, and we'll probably lose them. but with the zetec pro series, and the probablility of integrating zetecs into FC in the next couple of years, i see a bright future for FC.
personally, i think the whole concept of the new spec car is a great idea on the part of the SCCA. i only question the part about enterprise controlling it. md
I agree with Mark. Teaching drivers schools the last 3 years and hanging around the paddock at 15 events per year, I would say the new guys had already been entering straight into FC and skipping over the FF rung. So the spec car may skim off much more from FC than FF, and the most from FM.
If they hold the performance down on the spec car to below a FC, the young kids will skip over the spec car and jump straight into FC as they have been for years.
I think the target for the spec car is the average profile of a FM beginner. They have to have enough clank to be looking above some old CFC or CF, and at the same time like the "safety net" that a spec class offers... e.g. arrive and drive programs, parts network, resale values, etc.
Timmy<BR>
I agree with Mike that we need to take steps to make the class more economical and maintain the competitiveness. By addressing the consumables first - tires, gas(spec gas or no $15 a gallon super fuel), cranks (they seem to be consumable with the current flywheel configuration) and other un-reliable parts (lifters, timing chains/gears). These items would go a long way in reducing the cost of operating a FF. Next I think we need to segment the FF's nationally, maybe a national CF class to include all of the FF chassis's and fill out the fields at national and regional races. I share the concern that my RF84 is not competitive in FF ranks but would be competitive in CF ranks with a weight penalty or other means to even the playing field. We all drive to compete and the lack of participation and interest is do to the costs and the disparity in competition. Lastly, I think we should formalize a Mentor program for those getting started in FF racing. One that would have a veteran paddock with a novice for the first few events to make sure they get off on the right foot. I'm sure Chris would have welcomed this as he rolled his "new" Citation out to overcome any teething problems he encountered. This board is great but where the new guys need help is at the track.
Personally I don't have any connection with FM except that they are members of SCCA as well and deserve a fair shake.It is wrong for SCCA to introduce a car that disenfranchises any member.When a private entity does that it is the free
enterprise system in full swing.If SCCA introduces a car to compete against any class
for participation and market share it is wrong.Why are there so many people who appear not to care if other members are hurt by this.This is not a club run by it's members like it is supposed to be.This appears to be an out of control BOD that wants to punish the FM manufacturer because they did not want Enterprises handling their motor rebuilding.It sure appears to be this kind of situation.Just because you don't like racing with FM's doesn't mean their class should be threatened.Am I wrong?The members input and the GCR should dictate whether a class should live or die.Right?
FM won't die unless their owners/drivers let it die. (haven't we heard thay before?) There is enough of them out there to keep it a national class for a long time to come.
They (FM) may see some realistic depreciation in value. But, what 5 year old car doesn't depreciate? I must be old school, but I don't buy racecars as investment vehicles. I read many posts where that seems to be the concept. I buy them to race, accepting that they may be a complete writeoff in the blink of an eye. Whatever I get for them when I sell them is sort of frosting on the cake. I don't buy into a racecar thinking it will have X amount of resale value next year.
With that said, current FM owners will still have a fairly high performance car to race in a national class. So it's hard to say the current owners are getting hurt. But it may be easy to say the sellers of new FMs may see a drop in sales.
Timmy<BR>
Mike, I think a few of your points are a bit of a stretch. First of all, new cars or classes come along from time to time and the marketplace and participation numbers - based on the car's appeal and a whole bunch of factors - determine what the results are. So everything cannot be frozen in time. In general it is unlikely that any new car will deal a severe blow to any other specific class. Look at SRF. Regardless of any controversial aspects of that class ( and geez, let's not get into that here! ) the car filled a void and there are more than 1,000 of them out there. Lots of people who may not have gotten into racing did so based on the concept of a solid, safe, standardized spec car. Having talked to some of the players involved in the spec car, I'm convinced that the BOD looked at it and decided it was a good thing for the Club - overall. They believed the time was right for such a car and they see it as something that will benefit the Club and its Members. I simply cannot see our BOD sitting there debating the best way to "punish" the FM guys! I also think one needs to be realistic about how a Club with 65,000 Members operates. Is it possible to truly conceive of it as a Club "run" by the Members? I don't think so. But it is run by elected officials who represent the Members. Those officials are receptive to Member input and, in my experience, they do not operate in a vacuum nor do they function with self-interest in mind. I think, based on what is known so far, the spec car will not be the disaster for the Club that some are painting. I agree with your idea that SCCA should look to US manufacturers whenever possible. In fact, this issue should still be emphasized through our respective Directors and through communications to the BOD. But what if there was no way to achieve such a car at such a price and in fairly large quantities without going to a British manufacturer. Does the Club management then just turn down the whole deal - even if they believe that, overall, it will benefit the Members? That's a tough one to call and, you know, we won't really know how successful the class will be or how right the BOD was until the marketplace speaks.
Dale Carter
2003 VanDiemen FE #29
Life is Good
You knew I'd post on this.... I disagree on Marks comments simply because no FM owner (ok, maybe a couple) are going to sell their car at a loss, only to purchase a car that will run slower lap times, cost more money to purchase parts, and mostly to support SCCA after the strong-arm tactics they saw placed on them.
I'm sorry guys the ones that will lose here will be the FF, CF and FV folks. I've got on CF owner who is already interested. The basic hurdle here is not the car, the price or the time, but who if anyone will buy the current car he owns for a fair price.
I agree with Todd's last statement. A major factor for many of us will be our willingness to sell our current car at a loss. Most of us have a lot more invested than what we can ever hope to recover by selling. Will we bite the bullet now or just keep on running what we have?
You all amaze me with the continuation of this thread. SCCA must love you. The racing community is very small and many visit these sites. The content of this thread is better than a full-page ad in USA Today for the spec racer.
Those that buy into this type of racing have very little imagination and possibility less ability to make a FF go fast. They want the easy way out and you are encouraging them.
This is a Formula Ford board and it seems to me that we would all be better served by discussing what we do and why. Further, if we put the same effort into promoting events for our class, the prospective racers might understand the attraction to this competitive environment.
Which side of this issue do you really want to be on?
After about nine years in a Sports Renault, I have absolutely no desire to ever drive a spec car again. Have been offered tests and drives in FM but I just can't force myself to do it. I only wish I'd have moved to FF much earlier. And I don't see myself moving to any other class. While spec cars certainly appeal to many potential and existing drivers, quite a few of us feel the same way I do about them. Spec cars, certainly the SRF, have brought many of us into the sport who wouldn't be here otherwise. While there are avenues other than the SCCA, the future of SCCA club racing lies with spec cars. Just ask them. While the rest of us will keep on driving our FFs, the tracks will fill up with SCCA mandated cars. Some of these drivers will eventually find FF or FC more attractive.
So what? I doubt that as many read is as you suggest, but I hope they do. In any case while these comments may be making a case for their car, first the folks here can read it from both sides as they can't elsewhere, secondly it's a pretty small focus group to market to and lastly simply selling these cars to existing members is not what the club wants or needs.
To make this new car deal run it needs to sell them more to the mystery members who we have yet to see. And if they do in fact sell them this way we here benefit too from it as it helps to keep the entire club afloat.
Lastly, nobody says you have to read any of this.....
Todd,
Sorry you missed the point...
While this board is based on formula ford 1600, it is built with the intention of being an open forum.
The discussions of what the SCCA does and new classes it created will effect this class.
What better place to discuss these issues, in an open forum.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
Maybe I am missing the point here, but if no one buys the car then there is no problem...right? Also, WE(though my membership has expired :mad: ) are the SCCA. If the Big Wigs in the office decide to mandate a class, seems to me we can take our toys and race elsewhere. I know that the Midwestern Council would love to see car counts go up.
Tom, are you going to be at BHF next weekend?
Todd-I think you are going to see a revelation soon.It is true many FM guys will not want to take the financial hit on selling their cars but I think that there are many others that will like this new car.Many will take the hit and go for the new car.Nothing really changes except who gets the check.I don't really think that this spec car is going to attract new members that will buy them.I do however believe it will dilute other classes especially FM.I hope I am wrong and next season will see 30 car FF fields and no class is hurt by this spec car,but soon I will have to wake up and stop dreaming.
The spin doctors (both positive and negative) can do as they wish. The simple fact is that this "thing" will succeed or fail based on market acceptance (people buying and racing the cars).
At the end of the Runoffs week, a grand total of 17 deposits for cars (13 of which were placed well before the week started) have been placed. Past that date, I don't know.
Hell, the Shelby Can-Am got 32 deposits at it's introduction, and where is that POS?
A friend went to the exhibit at the Runoffs to put a deposit on 3 cars and changed his mind after talking to Enterprise personnel stating that the car and any associated programs are a long way from complete/ready.
In order to get their "300 cars in 3 years", they better get P.T. Barnum to be the sales manager for Enterprises.
BTW: Any ideas what this thing is called?
How about Formula Johnson.....Fitting, don't you think.
[size="1"][ October 03, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Bill Bonow ][/size]
Bill,
You crack me up! I went to your website and copied the main definition and mission of your new car here. Please explain to the readers how your "spec" car is not any different than what the SCCA is up to? Believe me, I am not against your car or the SCCA's car, I just laugh every time someone speaks from both sides of the fence. I find it particularily amusing that you state that you don't displace FV and yet allow FV to add wider tires and run in your class. Please clarify how that doesn't displace FV. Just for fun, I inserted the SCCA car in the right places for your enjoyment. :D It reads
[b]Your text:[/b]
"Formula First (SCCA Formula Racer) is an open wheel class using predominantly Volkswagen (Ford Duratec)production components in a single seat body with a steel frame. It is an evolution of Formula Vee (Formula Atlantic), using a wider (narrower) range of components. FORMULA FIRST (SCCA Formula Racer)DOES NOT DISPLACE FORMULA VEE (Formula Atlantic). A Formula First (SCCA Formula Racer) car is ineligible (eligible) for Formula Vee (Formula Atlantic). The intent of these rules is to provide for cars of substantially equal performance with moderate construction cost, low operating cost, and high reliability and longevity.
1. Definition
1.1 Formula First (SCCA Formula Racer) is a class for single seat racing cars based on components from the standard Volkswagen aircooled engine Types 1-3 U.S. model sedan (Ford Duratec engine), as originally manufactured and imported by Volkswagen from 1961 to 1974 (as provided by SCCA Enterprises). Since it is a restricted class, all allowable modifications are stated herein. The purpose of the Formula First class (SCCA Formula Racer class) is to emphasize driver ability and to encourage the participation of owner/builders and owner/preparers while using proven Volkswagen (SCCA Enterprises) components.
Mik, you and I will have to put $20 on it, just figure out how to find the result in a given time span, say one year? LOL!
Anyhow, if they only sold 13 of them, then the new Star car is solidly ahead of them! And you can be sure the car WILL come. (and don't you count the cars for sale as a result of this towards your totals Mike!!)
The sad part is that I don't yet see where any of this is going to bring us any new members...
The only race I venture out to see is the FF/FV race. I usually go out to watch Mike and friends pass each 2 ot 3 times down the front straight at TWS and go three abreast into turn one. I own an FM because all of my race cars, sprint and formula, have wings on them. This is a personal preference. Given my limited time to maintain, do research and develop a race car, the spec formula is the only way I would be in road racing.
Having said that, I want to express a thought about the new SCCA spec car. If the performance of this car falls in between the FM and DSR then this car is going to be a major flop. Nothing to worry about. Who wants to spend any money on a race car to be lapped twice in a regional and three times in a national by a true Atlantic. This car may not even qualify to run in a national if the SCCA officials stick to their percentage of class leader laptime rules. No FM/FC owner is going to spend the money to run a 120 HP car that finishes behind us. I think that the market for these cars may be the SFR drivers. They already have a relationship with Enterprises and this should be a marked performance improvement.
As far as bringing new members into the fold. I have brought three new drivers into FM from other disciplines in the past 6 months. One came from the Spec RX7 group(used car), one from the Porsche Club(new car) and the other from motorcycle racing(used car). Two of these drivers test drove my car just for fun and were hooked. We have others in the shadows trying to make up their minds. The point is, that present members bring in more new members than new cars. To build any class it takes exposure to a target audience. You guys should try to profile the typical FF owner and determine how to expose this group to your style of racing. The FM group seems to be males between the ages of 37 to 50 years of age with some former race experience. I have targeted this group(my group of friends) and am seeing some results. Like you, I too want to see more people involved in road racing. More competition equals better competition.
JR Pringle
Hi all,
Darryl makes some good points - I think that he's right, it is the members
that bring in new members, not the cars. I got hooked on FF just the way
he described it. I've been around racing (vintage and SCCA) for over 20 years
as corner worker, race official, crew and autocrosser. When I decided to get my
license and buy a car, I was leaning toward an open wheel car. A friend let me
drive his '84 Reynard FF (before he converted it into a DSR), and I was hooked!
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the best way to
get new blood into FF is to show potential new drevers what we've got and
why its so much fun.
John
Whoa,I go to the Runoff's (by the way a Piper won in FF!!!) and the USGP and I come back and this thread is up to five pages....hmmm interesting the dead horse beating continues, I think market forces(they are not always fair either) will decide if this deal will succeed or not.
I thought people were saying that this deal would bring in new members? So who's buying? The same typical SCCA old fat guys with too much money looking for a new toy to play with? :D
After looking at it in person (and it appears they are taking orders before actually testing it, bad idea by the way) its cool but its still a 30K race car when it's all said and done, how many 16 yr olds can afford that?
I'm not against the idea of spec cars but does the NHRA or USAC,IMSA,WKA,IKF,NASA sell cars to it's members?
Dave
P.S.Not sure if this applys (and I could be wrong) to the 2.3 four banger but were running the V-6 version of the Duratech in the World Challenge Cougar I crew for, we've overheated it and ran it out of water twice (both times only for a lap, not long at all.) All Aluminum engines don't like that,(heads warp pretty fast) be prepared for buying a new engine, since they may be using a spec (stock) sealed engine, I doubt you will be able to machine the heads/block.
[size="1"][ October 04, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]
Mike Andersen
U.S. F2000 Webmaster
I have given this spec car thing much thought,much more than it deserves.Tom you are right forget the P.O.S. and lets get back to making our FF class stronger,more attractive to new drivers,change some parts and continue the traditon and it will be more interesting to everyone.I am building a FC car and I plan on running it next year along with my FF.
I think that everything has been said about this new car. If you feel that something was missed, please feel free to start a new thread.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
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