Should I convert to Honda

[squirrel]

I am sure this has come up several times and now that some time has past since the introduction of the Honda power unit. Does one HAVE to convert to be competitive at the majors level. I am sure there are several pros and cons. I purchased a FF kent a little less than a year ago and just want to make sure I am making the right decision for the long term. Any input or suggestions would be helpful.

[R. Pare]

To me, that would depend on you goals, finances, and just how strong you Kent is.

Personally - assuming that the $$ to convert aren't an issue - I'd go for the Honda simply because of it's power consistency and not having to tear it apart all the time.

[problemchild]

If you have a very good kent, or have a relationship with a builder who can build and maintain a very good kent, then it becomes a decision worthy of discussion that could go either way.

If you don't, then the discussion leans toward the Honda pretty quickly.

[andyllc]

Don't let yourself think that only a very very few Kents are good enough to hang with a Honda. It isn't a unicorn. Yes, you do need a good Kent and you need it to be running right but in general a Kent is just fine for Majors competition. Myself, Benson, Ketchie, Robinson II, all run Kents in the Southeast with very competitive fields including usually some pro series competitors and we win our share of races. We had a miserable time at the Runoffs but that was due to other factors besides power, it was not a good example of how any of us normally run. If you want to convert because of the long life aspect of the Honda then that is one thing but if looking at it from purely a power perspective then you could spend that $20,000 on track time, prep work, engineering, coaching and be better off.

Edit: Also, don't assume that because a Honda lasts forever that a Kent is garbage after 500 miles. The engine I used at the Indy pro weekend (which at one point I was passing for the lead, so I wasn't slacking) has over 30 days of use on track since its rebuild and is going back in my car for more.

[squirrel]

I do have a very strong Ivey Engine. When I spoke to Jay he said don't let this one go and take really good care of it. He even thought about buying it from me if I were to convert. Now for the surprise of it all is that I have purchased the legendary 1998 FF Stohr. Does this have any influence on the conversion?

[DanW]

I do have a very strong Ivey Engine. When I spoke to Jay he said don't let this one go and take really good care of it. He even thought about buying it from me if I were to convert. Now for the surprise of it all is that I have purchased the legendary 1998 FF Stohr. Does this have any influence on the conversion?

If Jay says its a good motor, its a good motor.

If you are interested in exploiting the Kent further with improving HP through the judicious elimination of windage, pumping losses and exhaust extraction, contact Art Smith in Ridgrest. I have one of his headers for my Crossle and it's a work of art.

He has done an enormous amount of development to make reliable and competitive power with the Kent. If you search postings started by Art Smith, you will find he shares a lot of valuable information, all of it verifed on Arnie Loynings dyno.

I can PM you his contact info if desired.

Regards,
Dan

[squirrel]

If Jay says its a good motor, its a good motor.

If you are interested in exploiting the Kent further with improving HP through the judicious elimination of windage, pumping losses and exhaust extraction, contact Art Smith in Ridgrest. I have one of his headers for my Crossle and it's a work of art.

He has done an enormous amount of development to make reliable and competitive power with the Kent. If you search postings started by Art Smith, you will find he shares a lot of valuable information, all of it verifed on Arnie Loynings dyno.

I can PM you his contact info if desired.

Regards,
Dan

Dan that would be great. I would really appreciate the info.
Thanks
Sammy

[OneWayOut]

If Jay says its a good motor, its a good motor.

Until it needs a $10k rebuild to stay competitive.

If I could afford the $15k conversion kit (and the associated costs to modify my frame), I'd switch in a heartbeat. You can get a new Honda for half the price of a Kent rebuild.

[andyllc]

Until it needs a $10k rebuild to stay competitive.

If I could afford the $15k conversion kit (and the associated costs to modify my frame), I'd switch in a heartbeat. You can get a new Honda for half the price of a Kent rebuild.

10K? I replaced a block on a motor with a top builder in the country and it was still only about 7K. The true conversion costs are closer to 20K or more. That is basically three rebuilds worth of the Kent. Time wise what 6-8 years basically? It isn't as clear cut to convert as one might think.

[DanW]

Until it needs a $10k rebuild to stay competitive.

If I could afford the $15k conversion kit (and the associated costs to modify my frame), I'd switch in a heartbeat. You can get a new Honda for half the price of a Kent rebuild.

My last Kent rebuild was $4000 with Arnie Loyning. The last Honda conversion on a DB6 was $20K after all the details.

[stonebridge20]

10K? I replaced a block on a motor with a top builder in the country and it was still only about 7K. The true conversion costs are closer to 20K or more. That is basically three rebuilds worth of the Kent. Time wise what 6-8 years basically? It isn't as clear cut to convert as one might think.

And if you send the engine to us for Cryogenic and REM-ISF treatment you should see a few more ponys on the next rebuild and you'll also see quite an extension in longevity.

[squirrel]

So if I spend the 15 to 20k for the conversion I am assuming I could sell some parts i.e. motor, ect... to off set some of the cost. Would the car then be worth any more money or would it still stay approx at the same value? All this being or having the vast history as a ford?

[RussMcB]

For me (and my situation wasn't typical), it was a easy decision. I really, really liked the modern niceties of the Honda: on-board charging system, fuel injection, easy start, no carburetor, distributor points, startup battery. Everything related to the engine was nice and new with no maintenance needed (at least for a long time).

In my case I was converting a DB-3 FC, and was able to wheel & deal a few more parts to offset the conversion cost, compared to a straight Kent --> Honda conversion. I enjoyed the fabrication/project aspect of the conversion*, and did the work myself, which saved some $. Also, I'm a regional racer (with no crew), in it for the fun, never expecting to battle for a race win in a competitive field. Once the project was completed, my racing weekends were a little more laid back. Moving to a car without wings and a diffuser was part of that, too.

* I noticed I saved a lot of money (and could put it towards the project) by not actually racing for a year. :-)

[OneWayOut]

My last Kent rebuild was $4000 with Arnie Loyning.

Even if this is accurate for a full, ground up rebuild, you could still get a new Honda for $1000 less.
https://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/ra...=10000F21SA200

[problemchild]

I have purchased the legendary 1998 FF Stohr. Does this have any influence on the conversion?

No need to carve up a unique cool car. I would stick with the kent, and I am a Honda guy. If you are ever going to get to the point of being a serious contender, you need to do a development process on the car and whole program. Considering the market, probably best to just buy another car with your engine of choice. Until then, enjoy.

[stonebridge20]

I think you'll find that the general consensus is to NOT put a Honda in that specific car.
In fact, if I stumbled across the car at some racetrack and I saw it with a Honda in it, I'd probably say something like,....congratulations on owning a really cool part of FF history. Too bad you F'd it up with that engine. But that's just me.

[DanW]

Even if this is accurate for a full, ground up rebuild, you could still get a new Honda for $1000 less.
https://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/ra...=10000F21SA200

True, but it's the "sunk cost" price of conversion that hurts. Jay's motors are going for 50 hours between full overhauls. - about 15 to 20 race weekends.

Problemchild is right, to reap the full benefit of your car, a top prep shop and engineer is crucial to help you to the pointy end of the grid.

[Gary_T]

Even if this is accurate for a full, ground up rebuild, you could still get a new Honda for $1000 less.
https://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/ra...=10000F21SA200

And then you've got a $3168.14 paperweight, until you spend another $13314.25 ($16482.39-3168.14) to actually use it...
http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/rac...=06000F21SC201

If you had no engine at all, I think it would make sense to start with the Honda (maybe not in that particular car, but hey, your car, your choices), but since you've got the major parts (and of a good Kent), it would make sense to stick with that and spend the additional $$ on making it to more races.

Gary

[squirrel]

I get the impression that if this is a conversion on any other car it would be worth a look at doing. Since this is a unique part of the FF history I should leave it as is. I can respect that. Just a follow up question for curiosity only, why would the history matter? If I stick a honda in it and the car wins multiple majors events and the runoffs would that make up the past history? Like I said this is all hypathtical of course. Strictly curious

[cooleyjb]

I get the impression that if this is a conversion on any other car it would be worth a look at doing. Since this is a unique part of the FF history I should leave it as is. I can respect that. Just a follow up question for curiosity only, why would the history matter? If I stick a honda in it and the car wins multiple majors events and the runoffs would that make up the past history? Like I said this is all hypathtical of course. Strictly curious

Throw a Honda in it. The only thing is would it fit. The Stohr was very neatly and tightly packaged as I remember.

That car is ridiculous in a straight line too. At Road America it would run down cars on the long straights like no other. I still think it could have done something interesting at the Daytona Runoffs with the way that track is.

[BLS]

This thread needs pictures...

[Jon Jeffords]

Here's some external pics, including the Version 2 wide radiator pods.

[RobLav]

Kindof a low front roll center?

[BLS]

"Here's some external pics..."

Thanks. I thought that was what it looked like. My FF knowledge is not that good. I actually saved those pictures, probably from a thread on APEX, but not the model or year.

Pretty car.

[S. Frebert]

Good thread. Interested in the responses.

[recaryob]

Does that thing have pull rod suspension in the front?? WOW. Are there any other FF makes that have pull rod suspension? I think everything else I’ve ever seen was pushrod suspension. Pretty impressive, especially if it works well.

[Jon Jeffords]

Does that thing have pull rod suspension in the front?.

Pull rod front, and push rod rear.

[LenFC11]

I had an 85 Mondial that had pull rod front suspension.. neat car.. I liked it a lot

[squirrel]

So I have one more question. What if the conversion was able to be done in a fashion where a ford could be reinstalled with no alterations needed. Basicly being able to swap a ford or
honda without having to modify anything. I hope I communicate my question correctly.

[cliff]

It is never that easy...sorry. I would be more concerned about the body lines above the engine. From what I can tell the Honda is a little fatter up top and that car currently has a good aero advantage, all else equal. I just wouldn’t want to mess with the lines of the car.
just my opinion

[squirrel]

There is a lot of room under the bodywork currently. It appears to be 12 inches in height or more. I don't think the bodywork would need much alteration.

[Jon Jeffords]

... being able to swap a ford or
honda without having to modify anything.

I myself see very limited benefit for that feature.

[EACIII]

If you really want a Honda powered FF then sell this car and buy something else. Some things should not be messed with

Ed

[T-Tom]

If you ask enough people and ask often enough you'll eventually find somebody who will give you the answer you want to hear.

[B Farnham]

Do what you want with the car, yes it's history but maybe the next chapter of the Stohr is Honda power.

If you convert to honda and go out and win with it then no one will question your decision.