Racing Schools: Bertil Roos vs. Allen Berg

[Holiday]

Greetings All,

First post here from a newbie afflicted with a dangerous curiosity for formula racing. I flew for the Navy for more than 10 years, and having recently transitioned into the business world- have found an adrenaline void in my life. I've always been fascinated by Formula 1, and am intrigued to learn that a similar experience is accessible to mortals through FC/FF/FV/etc.

To gain exposure, I've decided to attend a 2018 racing school event (2-3 days), and would prefer to learn on an FC car, being that this would be my class of preference going in. Would like to earn SCCA licensing as well. Based on my research, it seems that only two U.S schools meet the above criteria: Bertil Roos and Allen Berg (Understand Skip Barber is still closed).

I've researched the subject on this forum and others, and it seems that both have their fan bases and are both "good". What I've yet to find, is a modern breakdown of the differences. I'd be very grateful to hear from anyone who has either attended both, or who has been around to know...

For example- Allen Berg charges $5937 (Laguna) for their 3-day program, and Bertil Roos $3595 (Dominion); is the cost difference primarily in the track location or is there more to it?

Many thanks...!

Ross

[ghickman]

After being away from SCCA racing for a decade I needed a quick way to get my SCCA license back. I picked the Bertil Roos school because of price and I happen to know the guy that runs the school.

The cars at the Roos School are a bit old and dated which is somewhat typical of racing schools.

I also happen to know someone that works for the Allen Berg school. His job is reading data etc. From what I understand the Berg cars are newer and may have some more modern gearboxes in them...I don't know this for sure.

In my opinion the cost difference is most likely track location and newer cars.

If I were picking which school to go to and the $2k difference in cost wasn't a deal breaker I would pick LAGUNA with the Allen Berg School. For those of us that have raced at Laguna there's really nothing like it anywhere. Also Monterey is a very cool city right next to the ocean and the weather is almost always spectacular.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

There is also Lucas...

https://lucasraceschool.com/basic2day/

newer cars

[ghickman]

There is also Lucas...

https://lucasraceschool.com/basic2day/

newer cars

Wow those Lucas School prices look very attractive and newer FF. To the original poster take a look at this and in my opinion MID OHIO would be my pick.

[Holiday]

The cars at the Roos School are a bit old and dated which is somewhat typical of racing schools.

I also happen to know someone that works for the Allen Berg school. His job is reading data etc. From what I understand the Berg cars are newer and may have some more modern gearboxes in them...I don't know this for sure.

In my opinion the cost difference is most likely track location and newer cars.

If I were picking which school to go to and the $2k difference in cost wasn't a deal breaker I would pick LAGUNA with the Allen Berg School. For those of us that have raced at Laguna there's really nothing like it anywhere. Also Monterey is a very cool city right next to the ocean and the weather is almost always spectacular.

Very helpful info on the car differences- thank you. Monterey/Laguna would indeed be a hard combo to beat- to say nothing of the predictably beautiful weather that you could count on.

[Holiday]

There is also Lucas...

https://lucasraceschool.com/basic2day/

newer cars

Thanks. Took a look into Lucas, and liked the idea of new equipment, but was turned off by their use of FF cars. I'm certain that they are very, very nice- I was just hoping to experience FC, being that it's the one I'd be most interested in racing in...should I get that far.

Might be too strong of an opinion at this stage, so I'll have another look at Lucas. Have you attended one of their sessions?

[ghickman]

I don't know anything about the Lucas school, what makes it attractive is cost and the tracks to choose from.

Lucas school uses newer FF's, obviously no wings.

The Allen Berg School uses cars that are a fairly modern chassis with a 140hp engine, wings, 5 speed sequential gearbox. Most likely going to be more speed wise and grip closer to a FC.

Fun factor is going to be high in either of these but probably more so in the winged cars.

[DanW]

First off, both will get you what you are looking for, an SCCA racing license. The same elements are taught at both schools. Safety, flags, situational awareness, the racing line and racecraft.

I went the traditional route and first rented a car for an SCCA drivers school. The car you learn in is does not matter much. They teach you all the above except racecraft.

Since I was utterly lacking in talent, needing remedial help, I took the Allen Berg lapping days 5 years ago. I learned a great deal, particularly carrying speed through the corners and basic data analysis. Their cars are the FranAm Renault powered Mygale carbon tub cars with a sequential gearbox. They are well maintained for school cars.

The engineer assigned to me was Christopher Brown ("Making Sense of Squiggly Lines"). He engineers both open wheel and closed wheel pro teams. We would go through the video and data of each session. I learned quite a bit and went more than 2 seconds a lap faster the next time out in my own car, finding myself much more competitive with my friends.

There are some very inexpensive ways to learn racecraft and carrying momentum, including karting.

Monterey is a great place to visit this time of year with lots to do in your free time. Come early or stay late and enjoy the area.

[SEComposites]

Thanks. Took a look into Lucas, and liked the idea of new equipment, but was turned off by their use of FF cars. I'm certain that they are very, very nice- I was just hoping to experience FC, being that it's the one I'd be most interested in racing in...should I get that far.

Might be too strong of an opinion at this stage, so I'll have another look at Lucas. Have you attended one of their sessions?

I wouldn't dismiss FF at all. If you can be competitive in a Formula Ford you can race anything. You’d be far better off doing a year or two of FF before stepping up. In my opinion!

[Lotus7]

Lucas cars are the cleanest, lowest mileage, most-modern school cars available AFAIK, but the big drawback to them (depending who you ask) is their use of Flappy Paddle ® gear shifting.
Lots of us would highly recommend learning in a non-winged, H-pattern race car to develop all the basic skills, then fine tune your technology needs/wants as time goes by.

[BorkRacing]

I wouldn't dismiss FF at all. If you can be competitive in a Formula Ford you can race anything. You’d be far better off doing a year or two of FF before stepping up. In my opinion!

Also many times the "wings" on school cars are ornaments.
Take a look at the Bridgestone school at Mosport. With the exchange near 30% the school is a bargain and it is in newer FC cars.

Robby

[TimH]

I'm not sure how long the Lucas school can last at those sale prices. I'd recommend grabbing a chance at Mid-Ohio, Lime Rock, and/or Road America while you can. Lapping sessions with another school can follow on at your leisure.

I also think learning to maximize mechanical grip is a good idea before getting into aero.

[Holiday]

Thanks for the great input- much appreciated. Based on your feedback, took another look at Lucas and added Bridgestone to the stack. Based on the duration, SCCA accreditation value, and some consideration to cars- Bridgestone looks to be the best deal for Americans, given the current exchange.

Still giving this thought (and would continue to welcome input), but thought I'd share my notes for anyone else working down this path:

	School	Location(s)	Program	Cost (12/10/17)	SCCA	Car	Features
1	Lucas	FL/OH/CT/KY/WI	2-Day	$2,999.00	Novice Permit + 1 Event	Ray GR11 140hp w/treads	Pro Shift 5-speed; AiM Acquisition/Smarty Cam
2	Bridgestone	TR (CAN)	3-Day	$3,113.44	Novice Permit + 2 Events	08' tubular VD 170hp w/treads	5-speed sequential; Acquisition/Camera?
3	Bertil Roos	PA/NJ/FL/VA/GA/	3-Day	$3,595.00	Novice Permit + 2 Events	Tubular Scandia 150hp w/treads	4-speed crashbox; No Acquisition or Cam
4	Allen Berg	CA	3-Day	$5,937.00	Novice Permit Only	CF Tatuus Renault 140hp w/slicks	5-speed sequential; Motec Acquisition/GoPro

[Bob Clark]

As a SCCA Divisional Licensing person make, sure you check and verfiy the SCCA license portion of the schools you are looking at. Most schools only issue a letter ( some schools charge extra for this letter ) "recommending" you for the SCCA license they list.
You still need an SCCA Physical form, License application ( and the fees for that license) and the letter from them and be an SCCA member. Just looking at the list I, see several errors on what they list for SCCA licenses. All are good schools but please verify what you are getting for the SCCA license portion. Please feel free to contact me if you have questions on a SCCA Competition License.


Bob Clark
SCCA Cen-Div Driver Licensing
two six two 317-1225 direct

[Holiday]

As a SCCA Divisional Licensing person make, sure you check and verfiy the SCCA license portion of the schools you are looking at. Just looking at the list I, see several errors on what they list for SCCA licenses. All are good schools but please verify what you are getting for the SCCA license portion. Please feel free to contact me if you have questions on a SCCA Competition License.

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info, but could you please be more specific on the "several errors" that you've noted? Curious because I've pulled that info directly from the SCCA website (the https://www.scca.com/pages/driver-s-school-w-table).

I'm basing decisions on this info, so if there are errors- I'd be very interested in knowing where.

Many thanks!
Ross

[Bob Clark]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info, but could you please be more specific on the "several errors" that you've noted? Curious because I've pulled that info directly from the SCCA website (the https://www.scca.com/pages/driver-s-school-w-table).

I'm basing decisions on this info, so if there are errors- I'd be very interested in knowing where.

Many thanks!
Ross

Well for one. A novice permit and 3 events would be a " Full Competition" License. No Novice permit needed. You don't want to pay for a novice permit onlyto find out you didn't need it.
Also SCCA descibes "Weekends" needed for license upgrades or maintaining your license. Look at an SCCA license application and you will see what I mean. They do say "Events" on the approved school page you linked. It may be just word differences between everyone but, like I said make sure you know what you are getting recomedation wise from the school. Oh, the Berg school is only listed as a "Drivers School" only on a Novice Permit according to SCCA.

[AMDAS]

Ross,

While you are getting a bunch of great feedback here on APEX regarding pro schools, we have had great personal success with many of our drivers at SCCA schools. Even for karters who had a great deal of previous racing experience, the seat time in the race car on slicks was invaluable. The classroom time is also. If you are in the Washington DC area, the WDC region has a great school at Summit Point with a lot of track time. We are also a believer that learning without wings has advantages over learning with them, particularly when it comes of learning the limits of mechanical grip, and non aero race car adjustments.

If you need a car for the school, we offer arrive and drive programs for all the NE SCCA schools. Details can be found on our website.

Here is the link:

http://advantagemotorsports.com/racecar-rentals.html

Good luck with your journey!

Dave

Well for one. A novice permit and 3 events would be a " Full Competition" License. No Novice permit needed. You don't want to pay for a novice permit onlyto find out you didn't need it.
Also SCCA descibes "Weekends" needed for license upgrades or maintaining your license. Look at an SCCA license application and you will see what I mean. They do say "Events" on the approved school page you linked. It may be just word differences between everyone but, like I said make sure you know what you are getting recomedation wise from the school. Oh, the Berg school is only listed as a "Drivers School" only on a Novice Permit according to SCCA.

[veeten]

Ross
I can 2nd what Dave said about going the SCCA route with a rental car.
I come to this with a professional perspective. I am a lead instructor for the largest Closed wheel schools in U.S . The heavy close wheel cars will
teach you the line but Braking and power application are very different.
If you want a open wheel experience, a vee like Dave has will give a great foundation for any class
We have several Ex Fighter pilots in our instructor group and from what I see the lack
car feel is common issue when trying to transfer skill sets.
But procedure and concentration are above average.
Don't wait go racing, join the clan

Sherman

[bassracer]

One big vote for Bertil Roos. I did the 5 day and also did 2 years of their race series. I think being able to revisit the school material with instructors during race weekend(s) was the best way to cement the theories and practices.

[FVRacer21]

Oh for the days when there was just 3 options, SCCA School, Skip Barber and Jim Russell, .....yes and Roos with the infamous slide car.

Wait - did we forget Bondurant?

I heard a rumor that Roos bought some SBRS cars to refurbish for alternate venues - and another rumor that a company has bought the SBRS name -

Since I believe learning to drive low HP, no wings and an H box teaches you more about driving, Dave Scaler has that pretty much nailed down.

I will admit that a professional school will technically get you up to speed faster - Dave does have data acquisition though....

PS, the best track to learn on is not necessarily the most famous track - unless you are doing the school just to cross the track off your bucket list.

PS 2 Put more columns for things like crash damage, instructors, rev limits (all start with them). etc. Any slicks will be so hard as to be not much better than threaded tires. Wings do not work at most school speeds.

ChrisZ

[Holiday]

Well for one. A novice permit and 3 events would be a " Full Competition" License. No Novice permit needed. You don't want to pay for a novice permit onlyto find out you didn't need it.
Also SCCA descibes "Weekends" needed for license upgrades or maintaining your license. Look at an SCCA license application and you will see what I mean. They do say "Events" on the approved school page you linked. It may be just word differences between everyone but, like I said make sure you know what you are getting recomedation wise from the school. Oh, the Berg school is only listed as a "Drivers School" only on a Novice Permit according to SCCA.

**Apologies for my belated reply here**

@Bob- thanks for the recommendation, which I'll take to heart and the Berg correction. Actually spoke to Allen Berg a few days ago, and he explained that they may be pursuing SCCA event credit for 2018- but at the moment, confirmed that no credit is awarded through his program- only Novice permit. I've updated my table on this thread.

[Holiday]

Ross,

While you are getting a bunch of great feedback here on APEX regarding pro schools, we have had great personal success with many of our drivers at SCCA schools. Even for karters who had a great deal of previous racing experience, the seat time in the race car on slicks was invaluable. The classroom time is also. If you are in the Washington DC area, the WDC region has a great school at Summit Point with a lot of track time. We are also a believer that learning without wings has advantages over learning with them, particularly when it comes of learning the limits of mechanical grip, and non aero race car adjustments.

If you need a car for the school, we offer arrive and drive programs for all the NE SCCA schools. Details can be found on our website.

Here is the link:

http://advantagemotorsports.com/racecar-rentals.html

Good luck with your journey!

Dave

Thanks, Dave...

I live ~25 minutes away from Summit Point, and will keep this in mind. Connected with Lin Toland last week, who made mention of an upcoming SCCA event in March 24th-26th.

[Holiday]

Ross
I can 2nd what Dave said about going the SCCA route with a rental car.
I come to this with a professional perspective. I am a lead instructor for the largest Closed wheel schools in U.S . The heavy close wheel cars will
teach you the line but Braking and power application are very different.
If you want a open wheel experience, a vee like Dave has will give a great foundation for any class
We have several Ex Fighter pilots in our instructor group and from what I see the lack
car feel is common issue when trying to transfer skill sets.
But procedure and concentration are above average.
Don't wait go racing, join the clan

Sherman

Thanks, Sherman- working in that direction, for sure...! Good to know, and looking forward to comparing experiences soon.

[marc sproule]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/46681980@N03/4607555359/in/album-72157623186773769/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7623186773769/

[John Nesbitt]

As others have noted, the DC Region of SCCA does a very highly regarded driver school in the early spring. Also very reasonably priced, and a discount on your entry fee for the first few MARRS races.

Rentals are available. Again, as others have recommended, you will have your best school experience in a lower-horsepower, reliable car, in a group of similar cars. I know that this is an open wheel forum, but for the DC school, your best bet would be to rent an SM or an SRF.

If you are interested, contact me via PM, and I can put you in touch with the chief instructor and with prep shops that rent cars for the school.

[BruceRace]

We put on an SCCA accredited driver school at Waterford Hills in April. Tough track, great instruction, Located in Clarkston (Southeast MI),MI. Many "Big Name" racers have driven here. There are rentals available too......Check our website...Waterfordhills.com.....Thanks - Bruce MacDonald, WHRRI - Director of Racing

[Retroracer]

We put on an SCCA accredited driver school at Waterford Hills in April. Tough track, great instruction, Located in Clarkston (Southeast MI),MI. Many "Big Name" racers have driven here. There are rentals available too......Check our website...Waterfordhills.com.....Thanks - Bruce MacDonald, WHRRI - Director of Racing

The Waterford school differs from the professional schools in that it teaches how to go racing rather than just how to drive. They cover how to get registered, prepared, scrutineered and have your car to the grid on time. I have seen graduates of the “arrive and drive” schools be clueless about how to get their own car through a race weekend.

[GordB]

Observations from a complete novice.

Just completed the Lucas Oil School last weekend at Palm Beach International and I couldn't be more satisfied.

I researched all the schools and did my homework when making the decision.
And I will admit that price was a major factor, as Lucas was very competitive in that regard.

Also a big factor for me was the quality of the cars and the fact that they had the most up to date equipment.
The Ray cars are very slick and in great condition. (Mazda 2000 engines, 5 speed sequential on paddles, AIM data)

What really turned my head was the quality of instruction and the amount of one on one coaching.
After each track session there were at least 3 instructors with notes and advice for each student.

The qualifications of the instructors are certainly something to be noted here as we had several that have raced Indy, Le Mans and other serious Pro series.
What really set these instructors on top for me however, was their ability to communicate and teach with very direct and clear explanations of the hows and whys.

As a beginner, I came in with a lot of preconceived notions about driving, in the "Only hit the brakes when you see God" kind of vein. All of which required them to be very patient with me

The lessons really began to hit home on the second day when I began the day with the attitude of being precise, rather than trying to be fast. (and that is when the speed really started to happen)

As for the purists who believe that paddle shifting is somehow a lazy or lesser method, please let me assure you of this.
There is enough to learn and you will be very busy trying to digest everything else they will be throwing at you.

Throw in learning how to heel and toe and you will likely be overwhelmed or at the very least, miss some of the other important lessons.
Not trying to suggest that learning to shift isn't important, but its one of those things that requires a lot of practice and can be done later. (I suspect you will learn much faster on your own transmission)

The when and where to up and down shift is at least as important if not more so.
Like not downshifting right at the apex, and then wondering why all these cars are now in front of you and heading directly at you.
(Yes, I did that)

I will admit that going in I would have preferred slicks on the car and enjoying the higher cornering speeds they make possible.
Upon reflection though, it makes perfect sense to learn on treads and deal with under and over steer at slower speeds.
Yes you are going to experience more of these conditions but think about it, its school, that's the whole point.
It is exactly the right place to learn how to correct, not in your first race.

I gladly speak very highly about the Lucas School.
It was money well spent and I learnt a lot.
I am a much better driver now due to this experience.

I need to add, I have not experienced any of the other schools and I am sure they strive as hard and are as capable.
I am only relating my personal experience at Lucas. (It was awesome)

When making your own decision consider less the speed of the cars, or the cool factor (wings etc.) and focus on what you are there to do, learn.

I do plan on attending an SCCA school, in my own car or perhaps a rental, (timing issue)
It can only help.