Expanded CFF Eligibility?

[Dave Harmison]

Isn't CFF eligibility a CENDIV question, not an EWC question? It would be very confusing if we had one set of eligibility for EWC and another for CENDIV. Isn't this really decided at CENDIV round table (or it's equivilant after the division of the division) ?

If I may be so bold, Wes, Tom, Brian, Steve, Mike N, Mike B, myself were the regular contenders the last few years in CFF. That represents Merlyn, Van Diemen?, Lola, Dulon?, Zink, Royale. And to an educated eye, they all look similar. Sounds like we have parity. I'd also be very surprised if we had much chance against a good DB1.

[Joefisherff]

Dave, I don't think Steve's goal is to throw the cars that currently are competitive in FF in the mix but rather include the cars that are not competive in FF yet not eligible for CF. The cars he listed in the original post with Hoosier R60's would be very close in speed to the CF's running in the EWC in my opinion. I don't see the DB1's which are still very competitive in the FF ranks being included. I do agree with you that we should make it a Cen-Div decision, when we had the Hoosier R60 ruling in the EWC for FF and CF and an open tire rule for FF in Cen-Div it was very confusing. As Steve mentioned everyone wins when the car counts are up - his goal is to get these cars back on the track. We may have to do some tweaking along the way, but, I think we should blaze ahead and fix what is needed after the first weekend. Does anyone know if we can even get a proposal like this on Cen-Div's plate to review?

[Tom Tipsword]

I've always subscribed to the axiom: "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt." But it's time to remove all doubt. I do not agree with tampering with CenDiv's CF rules. They were arrived at after long research and many meetings and not a knee-jerk reaction or scribbled on the back of a napkin. I don't think there is a 'problem' to be addressed. The fact that FF counts in the EWC are up (and I don't have the materials in front of me-please correct me) is that CF counts started pretty strong and stayed there. FF guys saw/heard what a good thing it was and started increasing. CF is a more 'budget' class and more prone to layouts due to finances and finding parts for a broken/bent car. So CF cars can disappear for a while, but tend to come back eventually.
The logic that a well driven and prepared CF car can run with newer versions doesn't fly. Yes, they can, but the newer cars have better aero and better engineering. That's what made them better. The exact same logic can be applied that these 'Formula Tween' cars, if well prepared and well driven can compete with newer FF's. So no, I don't buy that. Yeah, maybe I can run with them, but I wouldn't be happy about dropping a grand a corner for shocks, hiring a prep team and pro engine builder and hiring a driving coach.
To the CenDiv CF guys: How often have you run with a later Formula Tween that basically parks it in the corners, only to have them drive (aero) away from you before you hit third gear? You almost never get a chance to pass unless you get very aggressive or take chances that you wouldn't ordinarily. And then when you do get by, you're repassed when you hit third gear because of aero and you start all over again. Last time I looked, most tracks don't have the start/finish at a corner exit.
To add cars to a class just to get the car counts up reminds me of what Enron was doing just before the crash. If that's the only criteria we could add F500. They're open wheel and turn roughly similar lap times. Silly? Of course. That's the point. The point is to get the cars that qualify to get out and run. And if you're a Tween, raise your game. I don't think the solution, if there is actually a 'problem', is to second-guess the CenDiv committee and screw around with what has been a very successful stable formula. Along with that, I believe the Roundtable meets in the winter to discuss the upcoming season. The window would now be '07. I think a better 'solution' would be along the lines of the west coast, and have a third FF group. I will now open the floor for creative names for this class. Pay attention, Hopple, there may be a t-shirt in this.....

[Dave Hopple]

Pay attention, Hopple, there may be a t-shirt in this.....

I'm hanging on every word in this thread Tom....

(honest non-smart ass question) Tom, do you think a 82-83 VD on R60's would be any faster than your RF81?

One other thing to consider guys is the Cen-Div is splitsville after this season and the EWC will be a inter divisonal thing so whatever happens the rules need to be the same (for crossover) for both divisions IE Cen-Div and the new Great Lakes (I think thats what they are calling it).-Dave

[Bill Bonow]

Tom,

If the "tween" cars, as you called them, would become CFF legal in Cen-Div/Great Lakes Div and render your RF 81 worthless, I would be willing to take it off your hands

[Tom Tipsword]

Dave: Honest non-smartass answer-probably not. But you've hit on the exact point. Without clear simple definitions the process will never end. Say we have three '84 Reynards that are prepared and driven in an average way. We put them in CF. Along comes a well prepared and driven '84 that spanks everyone. Does the rule change to 'All '84 Reynards except those owned by anyone named Willis.'? As long as it's a case-by-case basis it becomes a nightmare of week-to-week changes. I've seen it happen in other forms of motorsport, usually under the heading of 'make me a class that I can win'. The only logical outcome is that we'll alienate/upset a group of competitors. We're just choosing what group.
The CenDiv FF/CF rules work, and have for years. To think that we can unilaterally mess with those and then impose them on two divisions is folly. I repeat that if there is actually a 'problem' then add a subgroup for Formula Tween the same way and using the same logic as CF was originally proposed. Choose your cutoff date or other criteria and don't mess with a formula that already works. Work on getting cars to the track, which is the subject of another thread. Add vintage and you have four race groups available.
Bill: What can I say? Such a thoughtful guy. I take back half the things I've said about you. I'm always open to offers that don't involve livestock or lottery tickets. I've always said my car would be a lot faster with a different driver.

[TimW]

Why do the divisions really have to be involved? We keep our own EWC points differently than the division regional championships (doesn't Steve give a point for pole & flag to flag that the divisions don't, and the area 5 gives qualifying & starting points?). I don't see why we can't keep the division rules the same and still let Steve foster more particiaption in the EWC with the tween cars and score them as agreed by the EWC competitors. This makes it a lot less bureaucratic. If you don't want to run the EWC with the tween cars, then there are more non EWC weekends in your division anyway.

[Frank C]

I am with Tom and Dave. I think CF works pretty well as it is and I would not want to see spec creep even if it is just for EWC. I think the best solution to attract the "tween" cars is to add a third category, along the lines of the West Coast, but with the post '81 tween cars as the middle category. Such a change would not alter the established competitiveness of CF, and would increase fun with more class wins and trophies. This should draw a few more cars. I think the large fields are enough attraction in themselves, though. Some thought might be given to somehow weighting class wins with overall place for the EWC. I think this should be done in any event. I'd like to see overall position reported here as well as class standings.
- Frank C

[csrazzle]

I think it would be a big mistake for the EWC to operate under a different set of criteria. I believe changing the composition of the cars making up this group is a very difficult proposal that should be very carefully thought out and more formally decided on. The current Cen-Div rules seem to work very well. Hey Tom, we need to put you in a Z10 though your car is certainly one of the coolest on the track.

[Wes Allen]

[size=2]OK I've been sitting on the sideline keeping an eye on this thread...time for me to jump in!!![/size]

[size=2]I'm not going to debate whether a "tweener" is equal to a CFF. Do you think somebody will be more motivated to go racing if they win a $10 trophy? Actually the value of the "tweeners" will go up if they start winning and make it more expensive for newbys to enter our little game.Currently they are priced right for somebody on a budget.[/size]

[size=2]Why do we race anyhow? It's not for the $10 trophy! I race my old Merlyn because I like keeping a little bit of history alive. I race for the moment when I'm wheel to wheel with guys like Tom and Dave,that keep you honest. I race for the comradary of the weekend. I race for the experience! We need people that want to race for those reasons![/size]

[size=2]I say the winter has been too long. Leave the classes alone. Drag that car out of the garage and lets go racing![/size]
[size=2]Wes Allen Merlyn MK-025 CFF #62[/size]

[Steve B]

Any alternative proposals to increase EWC CFF car counts?

Steve Beeler, de facto EWC commissioner
Lola T-540 HU44
home: (734)416-8865 sbeeler@wowway.com
office: (313)390-1818 sbeeler@ford.com

[bill ehrlinger]

STEVE:

What you are doing now is working great, and you, are admired by many.

Be patient. I know there is a force to try to make it better, but it is growing

every year. The competition and comradery are outstanding and the racing

is really fun, top to bottom. A perfect place to start or finish a racing career.

If not for you and the EWC I, most likely, would not be racing.---- But it's still

good and now the U.S. Govt. will be my new sponsor. You know SS#000-00-000

See you @ Gratten.

BILL

[fvracerone1]

I recently acquired an 82 VD that I aspired to race Vintage. Monoposto draws the line saying an 81 is eleligible and an 82 is not because of the internal shocks. I find it humorous from an aerodynamic perspective that a Viking and an ADF are eligible,but tucking those shocks inboard made a huge speed differential. Remembering that the bodies were interchangeable. Firman was a genius....

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Frank,

The Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series sponsored by Hoosier has had the 82 VD eligible since 2016. We set up a class ("FF") for "Tweeners" of which this is a great example, and also to move any Historic ("HF") or Club Fords ("CF") running with ally heads or cannister shocks into.

The great leveller is the tires - and driver competence. The top guys in HF and CF are running times only marginally slower than the very best Club SCCA guys despite the difference between treads and slicks.

We have 46 Fords entered for the Jefferson 500 at Summit Point, West Virginia at the end of May. Slow going for the FF class with 4 entries (including an '82VD, RP36 Royale, a Z16 + a Crossle 40 with ally head), but hey, its a start. We run our own race group.

A little closer to you we will be at Pitt-Race July 7-9 and Schenley Park (for the intrepid) July 15-16 - both terrific meetings, Schenley is a different experience. We are also at Watkins Glen early October. Don't know how far you are going to travel.

Check us out http://www.vrgonline.org/ff_challenge/

We run under VRG/VDCA banner

Any questions contact me at bbradpiece@gmail.com

[fvracerone1]

When I left racing, there was Regionals, Nationals, Waterford and Blackhawk Farms.Somewhere out there were these old guys driving old slow cars. Formula cars were controlled(?) by Monoposto. I bought a Crossle 30F and was told it was not eligible for Vintage so I sold it.
Now I am old and slow and I want to Vintage race so I find this 82 Van Dieman and am told that it is not eligible for Monoposto, but I should check with the race organizers to see if they will let me run. Since I am now on a pension and Social Security I figured treaded tires one set a year is do able.....
Is Club Ford a Regional (slicks) class or is it Vintage(treaded)?
What happens if I show up at a Vintage race with an 82 VD with new Hoosier Vintage tyres? Do they let me run?
What organization do I have to belong to? Who do I get the license from? I raced open wheel for 25 years (FV,FF,FC,FA) do I have to go through school again?

I am old and so confused....Lil help!
Frank Vella

[chrisw52]

you either need to expand the eligibility or create another class. But you had better be quick about it, racing clubs down under have already expanded their classing to include these cars in competitive series for that generation of cars.

Once those cars go down under, it's hard and expensive to re-import them back.

Do what needs to get done, and be quick about it please.

[fvracerone1]

I sold my Crossle 32F to a fellow in Canada who scared himself silly. Two years later I got a call from a fellow in Australia looking for set up specs on the car.....so they do go south, way south.

[tstrong]

Frank to the question regarding current eligibility CF was an SCCA regional class with different eligibility across those regions for years and now you add all the different vintage groups and there are several minor detail differences in the eligibility and other rules for Club Ford across the nation. That said what is almost universal regardless of cutoff year is that to be classified Club Ford you need outboard suspension on at least one end of the car. As mentioned there are some organizations that have have created these "tweener" classes. Also some of the vintage organizations have classes for cars newer than Club Fords. SVRA as an example has a "Post Club Ford" (PCF) class for cars with inboard suspension but you will be competing with Swifts and other mor modern cars, but on a spec tire. All three classes run in the same race group so there is always someone to race with. Hard tires do close the gap a little between the vintage and modern cars but don't be fooled into thinking they equalize the competition. So, come on out and have some fun.

[Earley Motorsports]

Come on out and play with RCFFS. WE will be at Mid-Ohio the beginning of July and quite a few events that most likely would be do-able from where you are. Great bunch of guys, good racing and they don't care what tires you are on. Look them up.

[alangbaker]

I sold my Crossle 32F to a fellow in Canada who scared himself silly. Two years later I got a call from a fellow in Australia looking for set up specs on the car.....so they do go south, way south.

Would that have been a guy in the Vancouver area named "Fed"?

[fvracerone1]

Would that have been a guy in the Vancouver area named "Fed"?

Yes i believe so, My car was all white and I had a speedway tail attached to the tail. Had anti reversion exhaust, Averill trans and an Ivey engine.
I remember some big transport that hauled airplane kits from Washington (RV X) was heading home empty and pulled into my circle driveway and screwed up my septic field....

[Norm Marshall]

Are you guys DB1 haters? And, if so, why? Because of straight line speed? I have one, I am a mediocre driver at best....reading this forum for several years, it seems that most think cars win races, not drivers, but still you put Dave W on a pedistal? Not that he shouldn't be, but jeesh, you know our class is dying on the vine...outboard this, inboard that....restrict this, restrict that, soon, you will be the fastest guy running by yourself.....I regularly get beat by a 340 Lola. Yes, the guy is good, and I probably am not, but at least I am invited out. I mentioned in another thread, that I would like to run some CA tracks with my FF. Not a single one of you offered an invitation to paddock. So, because I have a DB1, I am not welcome to come, and get whooped by your ultra fast Crossle? I swear I won't win! Can I at least get sum coffee?

Dave SF, I feel your pain, and thanks for the helpful e-mails you have sent.

Marshall

Come race with us, "Formula Ford The Series" in VARA. (Southern CA) We run all FFs together in (FF/CF/FFA) in our own run group. We have great races with winners in each group. FYI, it's not an unusual to see Stewart Patterson or Todd Strong in CF's dicing and often beating the Swifts. FYI, you can run any tires you want including American Racers which are the fastest and predominant tire in CF & FFA.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Put Todd or Stewart in a properly prepared Swift and they will be seconds faster! In addition the draft you get in a Swift behind a Crossle is insane, the other way around is not the same!