FV disc brakes

[BLS]

"New Zealand, but they allow mods to many front end components."

Thanks Bill. Looks like they have pretty four lug wheels as well

[Hardingfv32]

FV Committee members: Where do we source the hubs for this conversion?

Without reasonably priced hubs this proposal should not be approved as written.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Without reasonably priced hubs this proposal should not be approved as written.

That would certainly depend on how on defines "reasonably priced".

If pads and rotors are a whole lot cheaper than stupid fancy custom arched shoes and good drums. . . it doesn't take long to recoup costs. Never mind how much better disc brakes are. Many trailers and pick ups don't even use drums anymore.

[Matt Clark]

We couldnt get the final solid rotors in time, but here comes the test.

[S Lathrop]

Matt,

What will that look like with a SCCA FV rim? And will that rim even fit?

Designing something that bolts into the space occupied by the current drum brake setup is not as simple as it might appear at first. That is why I think that the disk brake system for FV will be designed specifically for that application and will require a lot of specialized parts. This does not mean that it will be expensive.

The design I came up with is based on the experience of ICP building disk brake setups for FF and FC over many decades.

[B Farnham]

Matt,

What will that look like with a SCCA FV rim? And will that rim even fit?

Designing something that bolts into the space occupied by the current drum brake setup is not as simple as it might appear at first. That is why I think that the disk brake system for FV will be designed specifically for that application and will require a lot of specialized parts. This does not mean that it will be expensive.

The design I came up with is based on the experience of ICP building disk brake setups for FF and FC over many decades.

This set up will fit the original VW wheels as well. It was designed from scratch for our application.

All the parts for this set up should have their own part numbers for ease of purchasing.

It was all generously designed and funded by Ray for the good of the class.

Brian

[S Lathrop]

This set up will fit the original VW wheels as well. It was designed from scratch for our application.

All the parts for this set up should have their own part numbers for ease of purchasing.

It was all generously designed and funded by Ray for the good of the class.

Brian

I will take this as an affirmation of my statement that FV disk brakes setup would have to be unique to the requirements of FV and not something that was developed with another market in mind.

I will point out that bringing out any product for a class such as FV is always funded the party marketing the product. And I think everyone doing so thinks that they are enhancing the class, especially if their product catches on. That is why FV and other classes are referred to as being "development" classes.

I was inspired to do the design I came up with by another FV builder. We both tackled the challenge. I posted what I came up with. Actually the design was taken from another project I was working on and many of the design challenges were the same as they would be for a FV. The other design was driven by cost considerations, just as the FV disk brake setup should be.

[Hardingfv32]

The kit pictured above is made by Jamar: about $800 for the front and $900 for the rear. This is the best prices I have found for a race setup… replaceable disc and Wilwood caliper. All other examples of systems of this quality are 20-40% more expensive. The Jamar billet aluminum hubs must cost about $150-175. This is what really drives up the cost of the race quality conversions.

Now you can get 'cast' hub and disc units for about $100. These are part of the $3-400 (per end) kits you see online. I do not have the facts but I would be very confident that systems made we these hub/disc units are going to weigh more than a stock drum setup. It might be close if you use a Wilwood caliper. Interesting how a Wilwood racing disc is about the same price as these hub/disc units.

So if you use these hub/disc units ($400) and Wilwood calipers ($400) you might get a system for less than $1000. You still need the brackets to mount the calipers.

Brian

[problemchild]

Good job we worked so hard to get spec tires, whether Hoosier or Falken, or whatever Challenge Cup evolves to.
More money to spend on brakes.

Best solution would have been allowing and promoting the use of quality direct replacement spindles and drums (as from ICP for example) AND specifyng a cheap brake shoe.

FV racing gained ABSOLUTELY nothing when people started developing big$$$$ brake shoes ...... the racing was absolutely the same when we were buying $12-15 shoes from NAPA or Carquest. Perhaps they might cost $25-30 now. I expect we could buy a lifetime supply for every FV in America for a few thousand dollars. Surely somebody could write a clever rule to mandate specific brake shoes. Should that supply diminish, then switch to another spec supplier, and all concerned will have to spend another $50 to be legal.

FV will gain even less from changing to disc brakes ..... just put a few more nails in the coffin.

Note my criticism is offered, with an alternate solution, that will do nothing to draw the mythical prospective youngster (nor unicorns or sea monsters) to FV, but does offer a way to reduce costs and make the cars safer. If you're not smart enough to properly service and adjust drum brakes, then you are not capable of preparing any race car.

Also note, that better quality direct replacement spindles and brake drums are currently legal, and require no rule changes.

[Hardingfv32]

1) A spec brake shoe is a complex subject. The fact is no 'current' retail shoe is going to hold up. When you talk of the past… you are talking about asbestos shoes. It made a great brake material. If the class was to spec a shoe it would have to be from Carbotec or Porterfield. There is also the issue of the rules administration by SCCA. I can imagine it might be difficult for the CRB to spec a specific brand or p/n brake shoe.

2) Reduced maintenance is one of the major goals of the change to disc brakes for those actively racing FV's. Reducing some frustration is important for keep current competitors in the game.

3) The alt spindle specified in the rules is a piece of junk. The only good alt spindle is out of production because of a lack of demand.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Just to clarify a little info...

This is a Jamar system that was originally designed for other VW installations, but is being modified for our use. It should fit a FV wheel just fine, as the FVCC wheels are 14".

Ray actually is not the one funding it, but we are dealing with Jamar to iron out all the details. There has been a TON of time + effort into this.

The price for this system should end up below what Brian H listed, but we are not sure on the final price yet. And to reiterate what many have said here already, the end cost of these will be much cheaper than drums in the long run. Just like Honda vs Kent in FF.

With all that said, Ray did run them today. He was VERY happy with the results. The do not stop any better than good drums, but they have a much more solid feel. He feels they are much safer in a panic situation as well. Hopefully he chimes in here.

Also keep in mind, if SCCA racers do not like this, that is fine.... This is the Challenge Cup offering.

[mikehinkle]

Here is a spreadsheet I started comparing other FV racing groups to the USA:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

If you want to add more information to this sheet or complete it message me and i'll send you a link to edit it.

I do not believe that disc brakes are needed to increase the amount of cars on the track. I feel that if there are a few people who are now attracted to the class because disc brakes are allowed would be roughly the same number of guys who get OUT of FV because of the change. There are a few drivers in New England that are racing on a very tight budget and even though changing to disc brakes would likely give NO performance advantage, drivers who are not running them will feel at a disadvantage if they don't upgrade and become frustrated with the fact that need to spend 2,000 or more to feel that they can compete.

Now there is a flip side to this as well. At least 2 of New England's newer drivers were having a hard time with their cars and seemed to start degrading as drivers instead of improving and had no confidence in the car. In both of these recent cases brakes were the cause of the problem. If there cars did have disc brakes this likely would not have been a problem. I feel that most people don't even know that you cannot just buy a set of shoes and install them, they need to be arched to your drums or you may only be using 25% of the brakes. With a little help from fellow races everything got squared away.

If we are going to upgrade I would much prefer a 'race' package like the one found at the link below then the cheaper empi kits.

http://www.mooreparts.com/front-2-ho...isc-brake-kit/

Who's making them? How much will they cost? How many are going to be available if the change is made? How many suppliers? What pads are going to be available? Replacement parts? etc etc etc.

BEFORE you send a letter suggesting that you are for or against the change I recommend that you wait until some more information is presented to us. I have heard that some more information should be coming out this week.

[Hardingfv32]

This is a Jamar system that was originally designed for other VW installations, but is being modified for our use

Can you clarify what is meant by modification and why there was a 'ton of time/effort' required to make the conversion?

Jamar specifies a kit for the link pin front end. Why is that not the end of the story?

Brian

[problemchild]

1)

2) Reduced maintenance is one of the major goals of the change to disc brakes for those actively racing FV's. Reducing some frustration is important for keep current competitors in the game.

Reducing costs is the only way to keep current racers racing, as more and more reach retirement age, and are trying to race on social security.

Your opinion of "junk" is your opinion. I never found any issues with cheap brake shoes or the ICP spindles or drums, but my concern was keeping costs down for FV racers. I also know that later model 4-bolt drums are perfect blanks to machine into 5-bolt drums.

Of course, selling inexpensive lo-tech parts would not fit into your business model. As usual, we don't have the "motive police" available, so everybody has to judge for themselves the agendas of those pushing the various agendas.

I made a better suggestion, but I don't really think anything will ever come of any of this. As Harding suggests, if we cannot write a rule to limit brake shoe cost, how are these drum haters ever going to convince SCCA to evolve the class with such a major change. Much better ideas have been abandoned after years of civil war and 100s of FV racers quitting the class, many quitting racing all together..

[lucky13]

Matt, Ray, and others deserve a lot of credit for what they are trying to accomplish. Rather than grumble and argue, they've taken what they feel is a reliable and reasonably affordable step forward for the class, and built something. You can agree or disagree with the solution on which they are working, but they have stepped-up and DONE something. I, for one, hope it works out.

[Matt Clark]

Can you clarify what is meant by modification and why there was a 'ton of time/effort' required to make the conversion?

Jamar specifies a kit for the link pin front end. Why is that not the end of the story?

Brian

I am probably not the best person to elaborate on the tweaks being worked on, but the short answer is it's to make it better for our application compared to the normal offering. They are gorgeous parts when you get them in your hands.
The actual physical conversion of hardware takes less than an hour.

Again, I want to point out this is what Challenge Cup is working on. What SCCA decides is up to them. It would be nice if both FV + FVCC were on the same page + go the same direction, though.

Most people who have been around know Ray. He would not be doing anything to hurt the class, and would not be doing this if there was not a LOT of support behind it.

[Hardingfv32]

I never found any issues with cheap brake shoes or the ICP spindles....

ICP spindles were wonderful but I was under the impression that they have not been made in many years. At the time I bought the last two units in stock. Has this changed?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Again, I want to point out this is what Challenge Cup is working on.

1) I am going to assume that the normal Jamar retail price of $1700 for a complete conversion is not going to be acceptable to CC competitors but I just do not see where you can save much if you are using something like Wilwwod discs and calipers @ $100 each for a total of $800. The Jamar kits use Jamar discs and calipers which are just as expensive.

2) The fact that the CC is working on this shows how the brake configuration can be set at the local regional level. So if a Region does not want disc brakes it can specify drums in the Regional sups.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

1) I am going to assume that the normal Jamar retail price of $1700 for a complete conversion is not going to be acceptable to CC competitors but I just do not see where you can save much if you are using something like Wilwwod discs and calipers @ $100 each for a total of $800. The Jamar kits use Jamar discs and calipers which are just as expensive.

2) The fact that the CC is working on this shows how the brake configuration can be set at the local regional level. So if a Region does not want disc brakes it can specify drums in the Regional sups.

Brian

1. There are always people for + against everything in every group of racers. We wouldnt be doing this if we didnt already have strong support. If you are not involved with Challenge Cup, you do not understand what is being said or is being asked for.
2. I do not know much about what a Region can or can not do. I assumed a Region has to follow GCR rules for the most part. A Region is much different than a standalone series like FVCC.

[Daryl DeArman]

If you're not smart enough to properly service and adjust drum brakes, then you are not capable of preparing any race car.

I'm smart enough to shovel elephant crap at the circus. . . doesn't mean I want to. Don't confuse ability with desire.

[R. Pare]

ICP spindles were wonderful but I was under the impression that they have not been made in many years. At the time I bought the last two units in stock. Has this changed?

Brian

No, i stopped making them when the foundry ( 3 miles away) went out of business. The next closest steel foundry is 100+ miles away, down somewhere near Cincinnati. Lybarger then passed away a while afterwards ( he was buying them as a finished lot), and I had no desire to stock them here.

IF enough demand is shown again - or if someone wants to order 50 or more as a complete lot, I might be willing to look at it again.

[Lynn]

Gentlemen,

At least two SoloVees, including mine, are using disk brake kits from CNC, which are very similar to the $812 kit from Jamar. Be advised that these kits add at least two inches of track per side. Also, be advised that these kits will reduce unsprung weight by 10 to 12 pounds per corner.

I'm not sure where Mr. Harding got the $1800 cost from, but the Jamar price is $812 for the front axle. The CNC kits were slightly cheaper when I converted the SoloVee.

[Matt Clark]

At least two SoloVees, including mine, are using disk brake kits from CNC, which are very similar to the $812 kit from Jamar. Be advised that these kits add at least two inches of track per side. .

Doesn't sound like the CNC kit is all that similar to the Jamar kit then.
Also, we are working on making the weights the same as a moderately-prepped drum setup. That is one of the tweaks to the original Jamar design we are looking at.

I'm not sure where Mr. Harding got the $1800 cost from, but the Jamar price is $812 for the front axle. The CNC kits were slightly cheaper when I converted the SoloVee.

I am guessing Brian is thinking all 4 corners, not just the front.

[BLS]

The Jamar website seems very short on information.

What happens to the track with this conversion kit? It *might* not matter for the challenge cup cars, but it does for the normal FV class.

[Matt Clark]

Yea, Jamars page is light on info. But that was asked early in the thread..... per post #9, track is the same. That is one of our requirements.
Instead of us just writing a bunch of words for a proposed rule & letting people scramble to find something that may work, we are actually getting parts to fit existing track rules (part of that time & effort I mentioned before) & giving a part number for people to just go buy. No need to fabricate or mix & match random stuff. We are trying to make our cars simple. Buy X kit & bolt it on. When someone bends or breaks something, all they have to do is open a catalog or website & order.

- no track change
- same weight
- uses the same bearings we already use
- no performance advantage (per Ray, you cannot suddenly drive deeper into the corner)

We will never be able to make anything 100% identical to a drum setup, but even drums vary between cars. Some guys turn drums to lighten them, some guys use old smoothies that are narrower, etc. These will simply be an option, not a requirement.
As someone else said in here, the absolute top guys probably will still be able to get a drum setup to work a little better. But what this does, is allows new or less experienced racers to have good brakes. It another step to even out the playing field. Less maintenance is always a good thing, and we people just waiting to for it.

[Hardingfv32]

1) The weight of the disc system must not be lighter than the drum system. There can be no perception of a performance gain do to reduced weight.

2) Nosing around the Jamar site I found the rear hub for $240. This hub is well engineered two piece unit (no disc). There is a splined steel center to mate to the axle. If you consider this an indication of what the hubs could cost…. this is not a good sign.

3) A BIG disadvantage with the Jamar product is a lack of brake pad compounds.

Brian

[Lynn]

Doesn't sound like the CNC kit is all that similar to the Jamar kit then.
Also, we are working on making the weights the same as a moderately-prepped drum setup. That is one of the tweaks to the original Jamar design we are looking at.




I am guessing Brian is thinking all 4 corners, not just the front.

The Jamar kit and the CNC kit at my local VW specialist were almost identical. I'm sure Jamar could make a kit for Formula Vee which doesn't have a significant change in track.

[BLS]

"But that was asked early in the thread..... per post #9..."

Thanks Matt. Post #9 is past my limited memory

[S Lathrop]

Coming up with a good disk brake package will be tough.

2 things I found as I was working on my design, packaging the caliper inside the wheel and not have 1/2 the caliper in the airstream to the inside of the wheel and getting a mounting system that supported the caliper properly was going to be tough. That is why I chose to design a single piston caliper.

Pad selection is very good for LD19 and LD20 calipers is excellent (FF and FC). Not so much for other brands of calipers. That also influenced my design.

I also think that it is possible that starting with front and rear drums may be doable especially considering that it will be necessary to have the weight of the disk brake setup weigh the same as the drum brakes.

[Amon]

Let me reiterate what has already been stated: THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO USE THE DISC BRAKES.......IF YOU DON"T
WANT TO SPEND THE MONEY, THEN DON"T AND CARRY ON WITH DRUMS! REPEAT, THERE ARE NO PERFORMANCE
GAINS WITH THE CONVERSION!

End of rant! Thanks and have a nice evening!!

Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

THERE ARE NO PERFORMANCE GAINS WITH THE CONVERSION!

Mark, If I still raced FV I'd be all over the conversion. I would even write a letter in support. However, I think you'll be very hard pressed to convince many that there will be no performance gains and attempting to do so may even hurt the argument in support.

Efforts are being made to minimize any advantage and therefore won't suddenly make anybody who was winning and doesn't convert grid fodder. However, even if the tire remains the limiting factor for maximum deceleration, even if the track and weight stay the same, you will likely have better modulation ability (performance advantage), better wet track performance (advantage disc set up), lower moment of inertia (another advantage to the disc set up). Less time spent monkeying with grinder stands (a.k.a drums) means more time to other optimize other things too.

Lets say the conversion is $1500. Many FV racers don't blink much at spending that a couple times a year on tires, but to spend it once on an item that will last years is an issue? I don't get that argument either.

[FVRacer21]

Mark, If I still raced FV I'd be all over the conversion. I would even write a letter in support. However, I think you'll be very hard pressed to convince many that there will be no performance gains and attempting to do so may even hurt the argument in support.

The question is that will the natural drag of discs offset any gains in braking, or will the hot setup be grinding the discs to provide just the right about of kickback for the pads......

On a serious note, when I proposed this before, the idea was to have an INCREASED min weight for discs for a year to eliminate this concern.

Chris

[BLS]

"natural drag of discs"

My old street cars do not have dragging discs.

[Hardingfv32]

…. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO USE THE DISC BRAKES.....THERE ARE NO PERFORMANCE
GAINS WITH THE CONVERSION!

There is always a chance that we are wrong about 'no' performance gain.

Just seems silly to approve of 'un-restricted' systems that could cost $1700 or more for all for wheels. That is a system with $100 calipers. If we start talking about LD19's at $300+ then things get crazy. The LD19 is one of the most common calipers used in small bore racing.

I wonder if a restriction to one piece cast hub/disc units might not be a better choice.

Brian

[problemchild]

Clearly, a properly adjusted drum brake system will have less drag than a disc system, especially one with non-floating discs. That has been reinforced to me most recently, as I have been struggling with a brake drag on an older FF in my shop. New wheel bearings, rebuilt $400 calipers, rebuilt $100 master cylinders, numerous different rotors trying to minimize run-out, and I'm not convinced I have solved it. There is a reason that all modern FF/F2K cars have floating brake rotors.
So my question ..... Are you going to allow better braking performance, to balance out the extra drag, or make the extra drag the penalty for using discs. Much like the steering rack issue, is it good for the class to let racers spend money putting inferior components on the car for irrational perceived benefit, or do you let them spend a lot more money to match the original performance, or surpass it? It is, after all, money that could be spent on entry fees.

[Dietmar]

Heard back from some of my foreign sources. Have to preface the results with the fact that many, if not all are following their equivalent of our vintage rules which they call Historic.
Sweden 2: drum brakes
Denmark 2: one is using link pin and discs, the other is currently using drums but is considering discs
Australia 1: drum brakes.
The Aussie contact also added this comment from David Cutts as I wanted some more info on the difference between 1200 and 1600 rules.

Yeah the 1200’s can use discs on linkor ball joints. The common disc set up is to remove the backing plate and bolta 8 or 10mm plate ( can’t remember which) on in place of the backing plate.There is a set of bearings you can use if you machine the disc out approx. 1mmbigger to fit different cones. It makes the track about 90mm wider whichstresses the stubs a bit though.


Have not heard back from Belgium and Germany.
Dietmar
Quixote Racing

[Daryl DeArman]

Much like the steering rack issue, is it good for the class to let racers spend money putting inferior components on the car for irrational perceived benefit, or do you let them spend a lot more money to match the original performance, or surpass it? It is, after all, money that could be spent on entry fees.

Good points and good question. Lipstick on a pig you say?

Without floating rotors why not pull-back springs on the pads/calipers like most street cars, karts and t/q's utilize? The pad is not in contact with the rotor and needs very little take up, not much different than a drum/shoe situation as far as drag goes.

[Hardingfv32]

"There is a reason that all modern FF/F2K cars have floating brake rotors."

So now if you want a low drag disc system for FV you might consider a full floating disc mounting system. Such systems require a mounting bell with special buttons (bolts) and the disc. This combination could raise the price of the discs to an easy $300 each.

So pricing a FF level system (4 corners) for FV you would have: $800 hubs $ brackets $1200 LD-19 calipers $1200 floating discs

That is a total of $3200! Think you might be better served with Pastore's latest exhaust system and intake manifold? Or do you already have them?

Brian

[S Lathrop]

"There is a reason that all modern FF/F2K cars have floating brake rotors."

So now if you want a low drag disc system for FV you might consider a full floating disc mounting system. Such systems require a mounting bell with special buttons (bolts) and the disc. This combination could raise the price of the discs to an easy $300 each.

So pricing a FF level system (4 corners) for FV you would have: $800 hubs $ brackets $1200 LD-19 calipers $1200 floating discs

That is a total of $3200! Think you might be better served with Pastore's latest exhaust system and intake manifold? Or do you already have them?

Brian

Brian,

I have been using floating rotors on the Citations for over 30 years. My setups are no where close to the costs you are suggesting for rotors and brake hats.

There are many ways to build these components that can be very cost effective relative to what you see on the market today. Your estimates are reasonable but I think that there will be several offerings way below what you think.

The trick will be to figure out how to simplify the design. How about a brake hat that is nothing but a heavy wall aluminum tube, less than 2" long. The tube is machined to have dogs to drive the rotor and lock the "hat" into the hub. The rotor is retained by a spiral lock ring and the only bolts would be to lock the tube to the hub. I can see modifying the VW drum for this setup, this will save a bunch of money.

If disk brakes are approved and depending on the rules, my bet is that there will be many packages on the market and the prices will vary a bunch. My bet is that $500 per corner will be at the high end.

[R. Pare]

Crazy question:

Why not look into designing a new drum system around a modern truck rear drum and shoe? With the over-the-counter availability of modern pad compounds at super-low prices, would that not be just as good or better than trying to re-engineer everything for a disk setup? Even the Toyota Tacoma still uses them in the rear.