I'm most definitely not an attorney, you're thinking of my illustrious and formerly rotund team mate.Originally Posted by dsmithwc04
I'm most definitely not an attorney, you're thinking of my illustrious and formerly rotund team mate.
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.
Amen Steve.
It takes tons of effort and hard work to get to the sharp end, no matter what class you are in.
The Ztec did not hurt FC one bit, IMHO.
If the Pinto guys had the bucks and the time there would be some of them there.
But the talent and money always seem to gravitate towards the latest and greatest no matter what the racing is.
So can't we just all get along.
Personally I would love to go to the IMS Runoffs, but simply do not have the bucks or the motivation to put up with all the associated aggravation.
So I will continue to run "regionals"
And not complain about Ztec.
I'll answer Greg's question for 50 posts ago. I'm "planning" on going to the runoffs.
Now I just need to decide, zetec or pinto. Not sure which one is better. Anyone have any advice? I work a day job and have only ready 1% of this thread
I still have a faster lap at Mission in my pinto, but I'm only a 10th off with the zetec on much older tires. Love that zetec bottom end though.
Do it. You'll be miles of smiles ahead.
There's a reason those other clubs are taking market share from SCCA. I believe it's already beyond the tipping point.
As Frog put so succinctly "the juice ins't worth the squeeze"
Either go pro series or go to one of the vintage organizations who get it.
I've been pondering this perceived dilemma with the Captain this evening.
The solution:
Our new zetec map will produce 152 hp during it's first hour of run time. Then each hour it runs it will drop one hp. When the zetec owner can't live with the drop any longer he/she can send the ECU back to the engine builder with a check for $4,000 and he'll get back a 152 hp ECU with the timer reset to zero.
Then... at last... we will have pinto - zetec parity!
Chill out... he's just talking about his dad plus he's from Canada (different privacy and health care systems, both far too complicated to be understood south of the border). He had VD for almost a whole year... got it from some kid named Z** B****. Passed it along to M****** L***** at the end of the year. Was glad to hear he got the French Treatment and hasnt felt any tire rubber burning sensations on his chassis since.
Also going to keep track of people who actually answer John's initial question here in post #127
FC Indy Runoffs 2017
Going:
Greg Coffin (pinto)
Dane Babkirk (pinto)
Gavin Aitken (pinto)
Cade Wilson car #1 (pinto)
Cade Wilson car #2 (pinto)
Assuming Going cause he has an automatic entry and he started the thread:
John Larue (zetec)
Maybe:
Chuck Moran (zetec)
Tim Minor (zetec)
Beau Borders (zetec)
Brent Gilkes (zetec)
Mitch Egner (zetec)
Nope:
Hazelnut (zetec)
Last edited by ccoffin; 04.05.17 at 11:47 AM.
Going, two cars, have said a couple times...pintos.
Eight FCs entered for VIR ST, which is biggest field in the East for a while. Some are "practicing" for FRP event two weeks later.
I would expect, from that group, that Moran, Minor, Borders, and Gilkes have Runoff plans.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
That truly sums it up and put a smile on my face this morning ! Our pintos simply wear out too fast and your long rod - piston combo solution was and still is a very good solution.
I'm always impressed by the vast knowledge, expertise and insights of the many veterans on this site.
A Heartfelt Thanks to All of You !
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Yes much like Jonathon's clever post from August 2013 regarding the FF engine discussion.
The Honda drivers have to "buy" a restrictor from the organizer and they are kept in 3 boxes.
Box 1 has restrictors sized randomly from 29 to 30mm. It costs $3500 to choose from this box.
Box 2 has sizes between 29.5 to 30 mm. $8000
Box 3 has sizes between 30.1 30.5 mm. $12,000
There is a secret 4 th box of 30.6mm restrictors which cost $15000 and you must have made at least 3 purchases from Box 3 in the past 2 years.
You can purchase a new restrictor once a season, or after 15 hours of run time. The parity will not be found on the dyno, but by seeing the Honda drivers having the same uncertainty of end HP, and $ spent for HP, over many seasons as the Kent drivers.
There is a reason that FC/F2000 people were looking to strengthen the class two decades ago by finding a reliable consistent alternate engine. They were not villains out to destroy the class, but people trying to keep it alive and well.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I also got a chuckle out of it. I recognize that this all comes across as very serious sounding on the forums, but it's not all. I'm laughing at much of it on this end, too.
I also still like the long rod solution. My thinking is that my letter will focus less on hp gain, and more on reliability improvement and narrowing the range of variation of the pinto motors. If we could start to get reliable numbers within a repeatable band. Then we can talk more about where those fall out, and what to do from there.
As for the 'super pinto' worries - Why not simply disallow backdating? If your car came with a zetec (01-12) then it may not go back to the pinto. If your car has an upgraded pinto, it may not upgrade the bodywork to 01-12 (a very expensive option anyhow). Then the 'pinto won't win anyway, the cars are too old' argument only serves to validate that it's ok to improve the pinto, and no one will attempt to build a super pinto in a modern chassis.
But... still trying hard to get beyond this one solitary issue... what else can we do to get more pintos out? I've still not heard anyone else champion any ideas, or offer incentives, or ???
What I DON'T want is this to turn into Formula Clique, where those with zetecs ridicule the rest, and the pinto peasants stay away. That is shortsighted for all of us, and for the club. Let's offer real advice instead of snarkiness. Thanks.
Cade
Well, I kinda sorta did ... I think a lot of guys could come out and have great fun dicing mid-pack with a bunch of like cars (Pintos or zetecs) if they could just come to terms with the idea that they realistically aren't NatChamp material regardless of the car.
See my earlier comments about SM and SRF.
Sure, there's always that next Senna, if only he had the money for a better ride, but this thread is about generalities and overall field depth, right?
The Pinto cylinder-head related to consistent HP
Just my non-engine-builder's opinion, but...
"Narrowing the range of variation of the Pinto motors" will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, unless everyone starts over with a "spec" head and gets it correctly ported.
The reason for this statement is that many heads had core shift, ports too large to start with, were over-ported, etc.
A really good head starts with small, properly-located ports that can be massaged properly, remaining "small" while paying close attention to the "short-turn-radius," etc. The exact configuration of the ports is what controls response, torque, and HP. Keeping the fuel in suspension while not restricting flow is the key.
A poorly configured porting job results in low, or at least inconsistent, torque and HP.
And once the head is ported badly, there is no way to go back and make it good without violating the rules, since no material can be added.
Dave Weitzenhof
We're in agreement that is the best goal we can shoot for this year. The challenge (as I see it) is convincing more pintos that it's worth the extra money for less run time against what is likely to be a smaller grid than many are experiencing in their regionals. If they're being asked to fill the grid, but not to be competitive, why not just do an open track day?
That's why I'm suggesting a "contingency trophy" to be awarded to fastest pinto. Not to disparage the zetec guys...but to give the guys who've been asked to fill the grid something extra that they can race for as well.
I think we need to be careful with saying all pinto owners are slow. I certainly will back of the pack, but I know plenty of exceptional racers in many classes who could be front runners in the right car.
This is really good info, thanks.
Thinking of the "tongue in cheek" comment about why don't we just go to FE, why don't we simply open it up to any 2L motor and watch the money fly? <---joking of course, but... what if there was a way to allow more and get manufacturers back involved? Hmmm. I know that's way out there...
Apologies, wasn't meant to come across that way.
All along I've merely been advocating "any car is more fun to drive on track than look at in the garage".
Surely racing "whatcha brung", within your means, is better than nothing
A small gauntlet
So how about this?
FRP to provided a year end trophy and some prize money for the top pinto powered F2000.
Criteria: there must be a season total of 5 pinto cars that enter at least one race and the winner has to have entered 3 races, or something like that. Maybe I can figure out a slightly lower entry fee?
How many takers would I have?
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
How 'bout something like the old A and B series, with the B's being older cars and/or Pintos?
Make that happen Bob and I'll scratch something together either this year or next.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
I'm surprised that an alternate class or trophies will bring out the Pinto cars but after thinking about it I can see the merit in this. There is no harm in offering both Zetec & pintos to run together & scoring them separate from one another. You would directly be comparing apples to apples so why not just make it a sub class. If that's what it takes to bring a few more cars out then go for it.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 04.05.17 at 2:01 PM.
Steve Bamford
Makes sense to me.
There are several currently running regional series for FCs that are having success and others looking to do the same. The club guys want to race and are making it happen on their own but the SCCA and a few small local organizations are the only options thru which to race. If you provide them a place to play, and it drives the entry costs down (thinking along the lines of SCCA $), and those racers are welcomed with open arms I see no reason it couldn't work well. I have friends and acquaintances that used to run the F2000 B series back in the 90s and 00s and said they had a blast.
The old baytos-run series used the A/B format to great success when the B cars were allowed points/monies for both within the B class, as well as for their overall position. The rules got changed to B cars being classified only in the B class finishes, and if my memory is correct, the B entries started to drop shortly thereafter.
You know me pretty well Steve. I have every intention of competing against the Zetecs, even with a Pinto, or outdated chassis. That said, it's silly to try to do so over a 14 race series. 6 is way more reasonable. Provide a carrot for the short term guys, it will almost certainly be wortwhile for both the competition and the series.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
Makes sense to me. In F2000 the podium could be a Zetec podium & a Pinto podium & no real need for a Masters podium at this point in time. It was often a Masters full sweep the last year or 2 out of 3 were masters for the last few years.
No doubt Chris you'd be at the pointy end of the grid regardless of engine.
Steve Bamford
I plan to have a photographer with my team for a couple of the days at Indy. Would any of ya'll be interested in arranging all of our cars (zetec & pinto both) for a group shot?
Maybe one of the qualifying days, in the 'magic hour' of the evening after our session?
Indy
My team is putting together an Indy effort. We are running a new to us 01 VD zetec at pocono and mid Ohio back to back than something later. My only experience is F5, but we are up for the challenge. The price seems right on some of these cars. It would be nice to see the numbers higher. Seven are at pocono so it's a start. Looking forward to the new class.
Jeremy Swank
Yup, agreed wholeheartedly, seems to make sense, right?
Yet, look at FA. With the same goal of increasing entries, FRP set up FA as two classes to try to entice the Ralts, DB4's etc to come and play, and .... nada.
Then said "hey, got a ProFMazda? you are welcome as well now" ... same nada.
Is it lack of competitiveness or lack of money that keeps them in the garage? No idea, I'm crew, not owner/driver, but the hundreds of open wheel cars languishing in garages are not getting any more valuable, just dusty.
Last edited by Lotus7; 05.26.17 at 11:08 AM.
John,
Doug and I both plan on going to Indy.
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