VIR SUPER TOUR new group 8

[Chuck Wilson]

Interesting how they came up with a new group after Saturday's fiasco with Group 5 big bore formula

[Chuck Wilson]

Forgot to add. I thought it was a good call by race officials.

[jchracer]

Forgot to add. I thought it was a good call by race officials.

Agreed but if they had made this anouncement a month ago, perhaps more people would have entered......myself included.

[Mike B]

What was the fiasco?

[Chuck Wilson]

Basically six laps completed two of them green in the 20 minute time slot

[924RACR]

Agreed but if they had made this anouncement a month ago, perhaps more people would have entered......myself included.

Great point - maybe something to consider for future races with similar huge turnout, like... Mid-Ohio???

[Lotus7]

This makes interesting reading.
There was also a thread a short while ago about a mixed class fiasco at COTA, in which it appeared the majority of commenters blamed the driving skills more than the mixed groups. Now this VIR decision shows maybe the grouping DOES have a greater effect after all? (Yes, a statistically irrelevant sample of one, but does seem to support what a number of people have thought for years now).

[Mike B]

Basically six laps completed two of them green in the 20 minute time slot

I understand that, but why?

[jchracer]

Oh, where do you start. I am sure I am missing a few things but here is a starter:

1. Split start and the first pack blowing the start causing a wave-off and subsequent wave-off of the split group.
2. People driving beyond their talent and many going off the track within the first two laps once the green actually flew.
3. VIR policy of no Hot Tows so double yellows fly.
4. Safety car rolls out in the middle of the field and waves half the field by trying to find the leader.
5. Leader is tooling around at a snails pace (why...who knows) and takes forever to catch up to the pace car.
6. Tow trucks finally dispatched but not enough trucks for all the cars off, so field tools around behind safety car while multiple pickups are attempted.
7. Race control realizes that there won't be enough time to complete all the pickups and go green.
8. Safety car takes the checker and wins yet another race.

[mmi16]

Oh, where do you start. I am sure I am missing a few things but here is a starter:

1. Split start and the first pack blowing the start causing a wave-off and subsequent wave-off of the split group.
2. People driving beyond their talent and many going off the track within the first two laps once the green actually flew.
3. VIR policy of no Hot Tows so double yellows fly.
4. Safety car rolls out in the middle of the field and waves half the field by trying to find the leader.
5. Leader is tooling around at a snails pace (why...who knows) and takes forever to catch up to the pace car.
6. Tow trucks finally dispatched but not enough trucks for all the cars off, so field tools around behind safety car while multiple pickups are attempted.
7. Race control realizes that there won't be enough time to complete all the pickups and go green.
8. Safety car takes the checker and wins yet another race.

In the drivers meeting after Q1, Steve Pence (Super Tour head honcho) instructed that in the case of a double yellow, the OVERALL LEADER was to proceed at a well diminished speed to allow the rest of the field to catch up in short order. Dispatching the Pace Car to pick up the wrong 'Leader' is a mistake on Race Administration.

[problemchild]

Same horror stories from the SuperTour events at Sebring, COTA, and VIR. Most SCCA events have too few cars and some have too many. Somebody needs to do something while there is something left to do something about!

Good job they "fixed" the flawed National racing program of the 90s..

[Eric Cruz]

I was in both of those races. Chief Steward Steve Pence actually arranged the opportunity for the separate race and presented the drivers with the choice to accept the proposed change (of course we did!!) at a meeting following Saturday morning qualifying, PRIOR to the first race fiasco. He does in fact understand what the drivers are dealing with (as a recently active driver himself), and conveyed useful information about the parameters he has to deal with.

On Friday he did allow us to discuss and agree upon details a split start for Saturday, and briefed us all on what would "probably" go wrong and how to deal with it. Yes, a lot did go wrong, but it was nothing like this same race 8 years ago when the Chief Steward refused to hear any requests for a split start of a similar field of 62 cars, and I ended up being a Turn 1 victim of that start. Four barrel rolls when I was hit, and pics and videos to prove it.

The Sunday races went off without a hitch (one lap of FCY in the FC/FE/FM race) and I was happy to wait another three hours for our race to go off like it did.

The fairly new VIR policy of not even dispatching EVs until the field is under control is somewhat disturbing. Yes - it results in enormous time spent under FCY, but it also pretty much disregards the safety of the drivers who find themselves parked in precarious positions (or on fire!) with no one coming to help or run interference for them for some time. Yes, it's their track and their call...I'm guessing there are lawyers and insurance underwriters to blame for the policy.

Best regards,
Eric

[John Nesbitt]

(Wanted to quote Eric's last para, but the board software for some reason runsallwordstoggetherwhenyouquote.)

I was not at VIR, so I cannot comment on specific incidents.

However, it is important to be clear on the genesis and impact of the VIR "Code 35" rule.

The was imposed by the track, not the SCCA, and affects all renters. It came in response to multiple incidents of contact with EVs under local Yellows. This was a natural consequence of behavior from some drivers. We are heading in the same direction at Summit Point. If folks do not start seeing and respecting flags, we shall soon be in a Watkins Glen world throughout the Club. Again, at the aegis of tracks concerned about worker safety.

As for the driver(s) stuck out on course, the operating stewards have a variety of options (Red flag, Black Flag All, Checker, FCY with Safety Car, Code 35) that they deploy according to the situation. To a large degree, they depend on the quality of calls from corner stations.

[Zcurves]

I was in the race and yes Saturday sucked. I felt robbed of the opportunity to compete. We all knew what was going to happen; the same thing that happened in the 5 practice sessions and qualifying session. Steve mentioned that they did not have the schedule flexibility on Saturday, but could split the group on Sunday. The split start was the only option on Saturday. I agree with Eric that Steve handled it in a professional and courteous manner.

There were several drivers with no experience at VIR and some who I have to question their talent. I was run off the track on the front straight while trying to pass a FF. I thought to myself "if this guy can't see me coming on the straight, there's no way he's watching his mirrors anywhere else."

Sunday was very clean, but I was hoping for FCY once my injectors clogged around lap 8 and I had no more than 8k rpm at wot.

[Eric Cruz]

John - I won't even try to quote I know you and respect you greatly. Just want to clarify it was not a "Code 35" thing. That was never in play at VIR last weekend. My fundamental point was that I believe the SCCA Race Director did more for us as drivers than could be reasonably expected, "stuff" happened, and just as us drivers many times screw up, some of the folks under his direction did as well. Saturday was a waste of time for competitors and race organizers both, as a result of actions of both parties, but "stuff" happens. He took action, not just words, and Sunday made it all better. In my little mind. My two cents.

Best regards,
Eric

[2BWise]

Isn't this the MO for the Things w/Wings group at every big Major or Super Tour event? Or even more often than not? This thread sounds almost like my verbatim about the Mid Ohio Super Tour last year except without the rain.

[jchracer]

Isn't this the MO for the Things w/Wings group at every big Major or Super Tour event? Or even more often than not? This thread sounds almost like my verbatim about the Mid Ohio Super Tour last year except without the rain.

Bingo.....virtually every one I have ever attended.....Bad enough that I avoid them if at all possible if I see 50+ cars and 7 classes in one group. SCCA needs to split this into 2 groups AT LEAST 30 DAYS BEFORE THE EVENT or participation will continue to dwindle.

OK, off my soapbox, I must prepare for the FRP event next week at VIR with all of the advantages of single class racing and professional officiating. I am continually shocked that more racers do not take advantage of the FRP series. Even though the entry fees are a little higher, the cost per green flag lap is way lower.

[924RACR]

Call me clueless, but wasn't this supposed to be one of the benefits of the Super Tour, with some coordinated level of officiating and organization? OK, it's a drag when mistakes are duplicated across regions etc... poor groupings, lack of corrective measures for poor driving, etc... but shouldn't the Super Tour be able to provide a coordinated and consistent product for us?

Or maybe this is what we're seeing, consistently poor...

In that case, why would we really want to pay the premium to attend Super Tour events? Don't need them to get to Indy, even!

Needs clarification by series directors...

Edit: was going to send Mr. Pence an email to try to bring the issue forward for consideration for upcoming races... but no email address on the Super Tour page. Anyone care to share that, so we can try to be proactive and become part of the solution, instead of part of the problem??

[John Nesbitt]

Edit: was going to send Mr. Pence an email to try to bring the issue forward for consideration for upcoming races... but no email address on the Super Tour page. Anyone care to share that, so we can try to be proactive and become part of the solution, instead of part of the problem??

Check your email.

[scott sanda]

For what it's worth, The Sprints has 8 groups, and is split up:

FV, F5, FF

P2, FE, FM

FA, FB, FC, P1.

I'll admit I do not really know the difference between an FE and an FB, but we think these are broken out well. If there is anything that should be changed, please contact Kevin Coulter now with suggestions.

Let's see a whole bunch of you, since you are getting good groupings at a fantastic track.

[924RACR]

For what it's worth, The Sprints has 8 groups, and is split up:

FV, F5, FF

P2, FE, FM

FA, FB, FC, P1.

I'll admit I do not really know the difference between an FE and an FB, but we think these are broken out well. If there is anything that should be changed, please contact Kevin Coulter now with suggestions.

Let's see a whole bunch of you, since you are getting good groupings at a fantastic track.

Maybe if Mid-O looks to be the same, we bail and head over there... was planning on going for the Cat Majors, but...

[Thomas Copeland]

I think the issue was too many cars to remove in a 25 min race window. As soon as I saw the number of cars there were I knew it would be pace car finish.

The decision to split the group up was a good one. They had more flexibility on Sunday to do that. Otherwise, Sunday might have been a duplicate of Saturday. The workers both on and off the track I thought responded well to the situation.

At RA last month both races had long black flag periods. VIR didn't corner the market on this.

How did Group 8 go? Black Flag free?

[KAMcDonald]

Sunday race for group 8 made it with just 1 lap FCY

[iamuwere]

The problem with the split to group 8 was in that I couldn't stay for the race then....long weekend to never get to race.

[Paul Schneider]

For what it's worth, The Sprints has 8 groups, and is split up:

FV, F5, FF

P2, FE, FM

FA, FB, FC, P1.

I'll admit I do not really know the difference between an FE and an FB, but we think these are broken out well. If there is anything that should be changed, please contact Kevin Coulter now with suggestions.

Let's see a whole bunch of you, since you are getting good groupings at a fantastic track.

That's not a good split in my opinion. Swapping P2 and FC creates a better balance. I race in FE and want no part of P2. We don't have the power to get by them on the straights and that class is filled with drivers that drive well below the cornering capabilities of the car in the turns. The faster cars should have less of a problem getting around those talentless drivers.

[924RACR]

That's not a good split in my opinion. Swapping P2 and FC creates a better balance. I race in FE and want no part of P2. We don't have the power to get by them on the straights and that class is filled with drivers that drive well below the cornering capabilities of the car in the turns. The faster cars should have less of a problem getting around those talentless drivers.

As one of those talentless drivers (really, maybe try painting with a slightly less broad brush next time, eh?) I will say I have no objections to such an idea. I have definitely gotten tangled up with FE drivers, despite my best efforts, when the car's not been in good shape to carry speed. Whether I go to Mid-O or the Sprints...

[scott sanda]

I will pass this on to Kevin, but please, send him an email directly if you feel there is a better breakdown.

[egordon1]

you need make that know to scca !!! the mix of fools we deal with on track is amazing.

Agreed but if they had made this anouncement a month ago, perhaps more people would have entered......myself included.

[John Walsh]

you need make that know to scca !!! .

OK...here's your opportunity -

We're currently doing the schedule for the Watkins Glen Super Tour. The Race Chairman - Elizabeth Thiel and Marsha Toombs - are tasked with financial management of the weekend, among other things. OT at Watkins Glen is $3600/hour, and that's in "full hour" bites. Adding a race group drives us deeper into the OT pool...and our thighs are already wet, and that water is cold. That next step requires "commitment".

The Saturday schedule is tough....but we might have some latitude to split up Wings & Things into a separate race group for the longer Sunday race. Then the question arises: It's the last Super Tour race of the 2017 season...are we going to see reasonable numbers of W&T cars at the Glen in late June ?

If we break-out a 2nd W&T group, will we have decent numbers to justify the Region eating the OT ?

John Walsh
Finger Lakes Region
Chief Steward - Watkins Glen Hoosier Super Tour weekend
john ( At ) jwalsh dot us

[KAMcDonald]

if there are a decent amount of cars, and you do not split us up, will there be carnage to the point that the cleanup afterwards takes as much time, if not more, of splitting the group to begin with and quite probably not have as many on track incidents during the race?

we had the same headache of too many cars/speed differences last year at the mid-o majors. small wings got their own group on sunday, but there were so many delays/cleanups during the day that by the time we got out, we only had 9 of 23 laps before the hard cutoff time was reached.

not sure how many people will stay away from the event if combined group is run vs. split into big and small wings. on one of the VIR event threads, several people did mention that they did not bother to go because of the anticipated headache of an overcrowded field.

[Dog Licked Racing]

If you think the diversity in Wings and Thing is large, I can't wait to watch the big bore group at VIR next weekend's regional with a 2001 ITE Corvette against a 2017 SPO Ligier LMP3. At the regional level it just as bad.

Other then SRF and SM / SSM most groups today are too diverse. At the Majors level this was possibly to be self limiting by some annual car count participation level needed rule to get a Runnoff race in the first place limiting the total number of classes - did it work?

When IMSA and ALMS were separate we used to laugh at ALMS for having 14 cars on track in 16 classes. - Was this good for ALMS?

Ideas other then punishment;
Restricted race weekends where only some classes run? As track time seems to be limited to only so many hours in a day

Going back to a two level licensing system to allow for more experience before running with the "big boys"? Sort out the fools from the gifted earlier with less collateral damage.

Restricting Licenses to lower cars classes until more experience is gained? Why should someone be able to go to a school or two in a SM, run a race or 2 in SM, and then get in a Major in a FA or P1 car? This is the way it is now.

Limiting drivers age to say something above 14, like 47 or 52 Assuming with age comes a sense of self preservation and wealth retention as in my daddy is not paying for me to wreck or win this race.

Realizing we are Club Racers and not on the fast track to Indy or F1, more like friends racing for a piece of wood that cost less then the valve stems on our wheels.


I have been racing in SCCA since 1984 (now in SRF and P2) just recently I adopted a rule where a event needs to meet a overall fun value before I attend. Both of the Majors within a few hours of me VIR and SP failed the test. Life seems so much better now that I realize at 59 I am not going to be in F1.

[mmi16]

One word applies to all -

[SIZE=7]R E S P E C T ![/SIZE]

[scott sanda]

June Sprints:

None of you have contacted Kevin on the groupings.

Right now, they are staying as posted, however, every group will be 2 pace car split starts, so your separation/skill/speed perceived issues will not come into play.

The FE drivers should never see the P2 drivers.