1975 Super Vee 1600 Motor

[jaweakley]

All, currently looking for a 1975 VW air cooled 1600 super vee motor. I have a Lola T324 but the motor has been upgraded to a 2.5 liter motor and is causing issues to run SVRA events. I am interested in a buy or trade.... My motor is fresh with very few hours on it, it has all the best in crank, rods, pistons. Willing to discuss.... Thanks.

[Steve Demeter]

If your motor was stretched to 2.5L by big bore, it could be relatively inexpensive to back it down to 1700 or 1600 by changing pistons and cylinders .

[jaweakley]

Well, the guys at FAT (leading VW engine supplier) said it would not be a good idea, but I will revisit with them. The organization SVRA stated yesterday, that I could run my car with current motor but only as a participant, not for place or trophy. So, I am not as nervous as yesterday but still want to downsize the motor.

[socaljeff3798]

Putting a 2.5 liter engine back to a 1600 is not feasible. It is far more than a barrel and piston swap. You would use very little from the 2.5 motor. Better to just build a new 1600.

First off the case would would be opened up for larger barrels so you would need a new case.
The crank would be 86-88 mm not the stock 69mm crank. so that would have to be replaced as well.

I am sure the Rods are not the stock rods. so you need a total lower end.

Depending on the the fuel system use I doubt the carbs could be used.

The Cam for a 1600 would not be the same grind as the 2500
The heads would be opened up for the larger barrels so new heads are needed as well.
And this is not everything.

As you can see if you want a "legal" motor there is really no choice but to replace the 2500.

Not what you want to hear but the reality.

[Charlie Schmidt]

Are you sure you need a 1600? For a T4 motor, those parts are pretty much unobtanium now.

AFAIK, most clubs have allowed 1700, and a few go 2000.

[socaljeff3798]

Good question chuck.
He did not say if it's a type 1 or type 4 I assumed a type 1 with the info I provided. Which makes me ask wouldn't a type one be a lot less money and better performance? I know from my days of usac midget racing guys tried making type 4 work but we're never really successful.

[Charlie Schmidt]

Originally, SV was T4 motor. I only know of 2 cars with T1 motors.

[socaljeff3798]

ahh..I am a water cooled guy I know very little about the air cooled SV's But all the issues I mentioned with the down sizing the current engine would still apply.

[jaweakley]

OMG, yes, I agree that my motor will not go back to 1600, and as I stated, the FAT guys told me so.... I really want an original 1600, a Bertils, BSR or Wilbur Bunce box would work...but apparently, they are not available. Thanks for input, after being out of the racing thing for 40 years and trying to get back in, has had its difficulties.

[jaweakley]

And yes, my current motor is a type 4.....

[jaweakley]

And yes, I would entertain a <= 2 liter motor.

[Rick Kirchner]

Call Jake Raby at Raby's Aircooled Technology. I believe he's doing more TY IVs these days than FAT.

[HayesCages]

I'm thinking most clubs are going to let you run a 2L. If not, I'd go with a 1750. Psst, we have a set of pistons and barrels for sale.

[jaweakley]

I will follow up on the two leads, thank you

[bkd320]

Not sure I agree with the comment on T4 motors and Fat's production. I think you ought to give the guys at FAT.

John - I think you know why I am suggesting this.

[jaweakley]

Thanks Ben, I will talk to Greg @ FAT this week.

[S Lathrop]

I went digging in an old file cabinet. And I found the parts list that VW published for Super Vee.

There were several special parts that were not available through dealers:

Cylinders 021 101 301 C
Cylinder Head (1700) 021 101 351 M
Pistons 021 107 111 F/G
Exhaust Valve, Sodium Filled 33mm 021 109 612 A

These were the main parts that were specially produced for FSV air cooled engines. The engines we used for FSV were the last variation of the air cooled engines but were smaller displacement than what was sold for street vehicles. Because of the parts being special, SCCA allow air cooled FSVs to run 1800 cc piston and barrels when the FSV parts were no longer available. If someone wanted to be a rules stickler, I think that 1800 cc would be the only size allowed other than the original 1600 cc that the engines were for the pro FSV series.

[Simon_Tuman]

I have a watercooled 1600 motor, fairly complete. Will need carbs and a few other things, but its mostly all there and if you are seriously interested I can throw in all of my extras so I can start with a clean sheet

[Rick Kirchner]

Steve I thought the rocking combination was 1800 heads with 1700 pistons and barrels? The series started with type 3 motors, not type 1, and went to type 4 soon after. The 1600 type 4 abortion was because the type 3 guys bitched about the more reliable, more powerful type IVs, so the SCCA crippled them with a bunch of special parts. The Type IIIs were so fragile they were all gone in a couple of seasons anyway. When all the 1600 inventory dried up the club allowed 1700s, which was when I bought mine (around '84).

The sodium valves are standard 914 stuff, but pretty expensive.

the 1600 type 4 parts are unobtanium. A very pretty domed design. Hard to get the required compression with the flat top pistons, even the slightly domed ones from 914s. Requires fly cutting the heads and pocketing the pistons for the valves which makes the pistons fragile and the heads will crack at the spark plug hole because the first cooling fin will almost be gone.

I believe every club allows the air cooled cars to run 2L now. Reason is that an awful lot of cars were converted to 2L because it's just a 5mm offset grind to the rod throws. Not a lot of good 1700 cranks left. It also makes the air cooled cars a bit more competitive with the 1600 water cooled cars.

So, borrow a 1600 piston from somebody, send it to CP and have them copy it in 2L diameter with thin rings. Make the compression with the piston, not by cutting the head.

I have the crank grinds, so does Steve Demeter (at least he did at one time). Unfortunately I won't see my FSV parts for another 16 months. You can over-cam it.

Avoid the stock carbs and get a set of 40IDF Webers. Redline set mine up with some basic info and they were literally a drop in and start it up conversion. all I had to do is balance them.

I used to have Shupak's book but I loaned it to someone on this site and it never came back

[S Lathrop]

Rick,

I was impressed I could remember what I did about that engine formula. Bertil built my engines. I just bolted them in and ran them. I did get quite good at doing a touch up on the heads. We did that once before a race weekend and once during a race weekend. It was the only way we could run with the "factory" backed engines.

I did not start running FSV until 1975 when I built a couple Z11 FSVs.

Because SCCA had allowed the engines to be raced at the stock displacements, I was under the assumption that air cooled FSVs can be run with either 1800 cc or 2000 cc.

A few guys tried to run Weber's but most of the quick cars ran Solex carbs setup with dry sump float systems.

[Jerry Kehoe]

So what were the VW motors used for midgets? I know they had barrel throttles and had injection from Hilborn and others.

[Rusty Hendrickson]

I have a watercooled 1600 motor, fairly complete. Will need carbs and a few other things, but its mostly all there and if you are seriously interested I can throw in all of my extras so I can start with a clean sheet

I am very interested in your engine for my March Super Vee, please contact me at your earliest convince 830-890-1416, I am located in Texas.

Thx

[Rick Kirchner]

Jerry - the midget motors may have started out as TI's but they ended up as a custom SCAT unit - they had a three-piece case (had a front plate with provisions for a real dry-sump pump and fuel injection pump) as well as individual heads, huge valves, etc.

Sort of the evil love child of VW and Lycoming.

I was just looking at the SCAT site and they make everything new except the type 4 case! CroMo Crank - $1500!

Steve - I only suggested the webers because I bet there aren't two people alive that can replicate the dry sump Solex 40P-11 set-up. Mine came with a schematic but the previous owner sold off the carbs. There were FIVE pumps in his set up - a big circular Facet feeding a make-up tank, a little square pump to feed each carb, and a little square pump to sump each carb.

I tried the solexes without the dry sump and they were a total POS. The webers just worked.

I was always worried that with the dry sump system a sump pump failure would produce either a fire or hydrolock. Not to mention the packaging problem of the pumps and all the plumbing.

[S Lathrop]

[QUOTE=Rick Kirchner;535434
Steve - I only suggested the webers because I bet there aren't two people alive that can replicate the dry sump Solex 40P-11 set-up. Mine came with a schematic but the previous owner sold off the carbs. There were FIVE pumps in his set up - a big circular Facet feeding a make-up tank, a little square pump to feed each carb, and a little square pump to sump each carb. [/QUOTE]

I had 5 pumps as well. Most of the cars had side fuel cells. So you had 2 pumps to deliver fuel to the accumulator tank. I had a single pump delivering fuel to the carbs and a pump for each carb to return fuel to the accumulator tank. The engine was barely loud enough to cover the noise of the pumps.

You and I may be the only 2 people who know what we are talking about.

[jaweakley]

This has been a very interesting string of info. Thanks....

[jaweakley]

As for my project, I have recently completed an upper end update for my Type 4 motor and have place road gears in the tran. And the first outing for the 42 year old Lola T324 will be at Road America SVRA May event.... SVRA will let me run my 2.6 liter motor but not for place...cool with me. Again, thanks to all that contributed to this string.

[2fast2stop]

My BERTILS engine has dry sump carbs...........

[Rick Kirchner]

Please take photos of the bowl mods and post, jet sizes would be nice too. That information just doesn't exist anymore.

[2fast2stop]

The engine I have is disassembled but complete which makes it easy to see all of the porting work that Bertil did on the heads. The carbs/manifolds are still assembled with all of the fuel lines still attached. I'll try to get to the race shop to get some pictures.......

[S Lathrop]

Inside the float bowl area of the Solex carbs there is a sheet metal "dam" that sets the "float level". It would be nice to know what the height of that dam is.

The banjo bolts for the fuel inlet to the carb were drilled for a jet from a FV type carburetor. Knowing what size that jet was would help any one trying to duplicate this setup.

While it looked a bit rude, this dry sump carb setup worked very well.

[BLS]

"Inside the float bowl area of the Solex carbs there is a sheet metal "dam" that sets the "float level". "

I suppose that answers my curiosity as to the carb "dry sump". 3 of the pumps are just pushing fuel to the carb (each tank to accumulator, accumulator to carbs) and the level is set by the "dam", with what spills over the dam being pumped back to the cells.

Similar to an industrial machine we manufacture, except chemicals instead of gasoline