New Formula and Sport Racer

[sccadsr31]

Over on the Sport Racer forum I posted pictures of a new formula car and a new Sport Racer that were on display at the MSX show held in conjunction with the SCCA National Convention in Charlotte this weekend.

David

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/10673...ar-at-MSX-Show

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/10672...er-at-MSX-Show

[racerdad2]

Very intriguing cars ! Thx !

[bill gillespie]

Uh, that would be the Crawford "Formula Lites"

[dalz]

More questions than answers. More like all questions and no answers.

So suddenly VW is out and Honda is in? Any team/driver/sponsor/coverage projections? How many cars have been delivered?

Um, that wacky sedan thing in the 2nd link is not a prototype on any planet I know.

[Mark Filip]

Boy did the sports racer get beat with the ugly stick.

[RSS]

Good we always need more classes (said no one ever)

[greghagan]

That wacky looking blue sedan is a "SilverCar". It is primarily used for european hillclimbs. They brought it to the states last year and entered a couple of events with the Pennsylvania Hillclimb Assoc. I think they were trying to gage interest in the car. The car is very fast and the pro driver that drove the car was very quick. He took FTD on one of our hills the first time there!

[greghagan]

you can color me crazy but "Fast is Beautiful"

[rickb99]

Sports Racer is HALF the price of the formula car..... why????

Or, WHY is the formula car twice the price of the SPORTS RACER???

[Purple Frog]

I wrote an essay in the last year about how fenders, roofs, and windshields have an attraction to certain folks, and especially their spouses.

Cool cars.

[Fred Michael]

Sedans are legal in P1 and P2 now?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So why not go with a NASA NP01. Probably slicker aero but needs more power...
Similar "cost", right?

[Bill Manofsky]

Yes, the sports racer looks like a delivery Van...pizza anyone?

At a time when SCCA fields are shrinking, they introduce yet another set of classes no one can afford...

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Sports Racer is HALF the price of the formula car..... why????

Or, WHY is the formula car twice the price of the SPORTS RACER???

Is the SR a tub chassis?

[Eric Little]

Sports Racer is HALF the price of the formula car..... why????

Or, WHY is the formula car twice the price of the SPORTS RACER???

I am guessing just from the pictures but I would think it has to do with the "sport racer" being a tube frame chasis and the formula car is a carbon monocoque. With my other hobby being cycling, I can assure you that Carbon Fiber is 75% gold (priced at the all time market high), 15% pixie dust (have you seen the size of pixies? You know how many of them you need to get 15% of that chassis? A lot!!!), and 10% unicorn horn (and with unicorns on the endangered species listing, their horns are reallllllly expensive). Therefore, anything made with carbon fiber will cost at least twice what the same component made of any metal will cost. QED!

Eric Little

[Bill Manofsky]

....That will 100%never, ever be an entry class for the average club racer...try again.

I bought an NA Miata in 2014 for $1800 with a full roll cage. Fixed the body and was out racing that year. Had engine rebuilds at my local engine shop done for $850 for a long block to OEM spec.
...that is club racing.

Miata is a good entry level car that can be had for $6000 fully race ready. This is why you see so many people racing Miatas.

[Bill Bonow]

Sedans are legal in P1 and P2 now?

Per the website, looks to be homologated for P1/P2

http://www.trackcars.com/single-post...or-competition

Competitive in P1 or P2 may be another topic

[Fred Michael]

I saw that. That's why I asked.
Would be more appropriate in GT and as for competitive? Not a chance.

Per the website, looks to be homologated for P1/P2

http://www.trackcars.com/single-post...or-competition

Competitive in P1 or P2 may be another topic

[Fred Michael]

SCCA actually reduced the number of classes by combining CSR, DSR, and S2 into P1 and P2.

Yes, the sports racer looks like a delivery Van...pizza anyone?

At a time when SCCA fields are shrinking, they introduce yet another set of classes no one can afford...

[Bill Manofsky]

SCCA actually reduced the number of classes by combining CSR, DSR, and S2 into P1 and P2.

I remember seeing fields of 25 to 30 CSR/Formula Atlantics at SCCA national races at Road Atlanta and Charlotte in the late 1970's early 1980's. I guess those days are gone...

Miatas are THE best value for continuous track time and as an entry point car with as few DNF's that I have seen in quite awhile.

[dsmithwc04]

I remember seeing fields of 25 to 30 CSR/Formula Atlantics at SCCA national races at Road Atlanta and Charlotte in the late 1970's early 1980's. I guess those days are gone...

Miatas are THE best value for continuous track time and as an entry point car with as few DNF's that I have seen in quite awhile.

Aren't new SM (ones capable of winning the Runoffs) going for $35-40k with annual engine rebuilds necessary at something like $4-6k depending on the builder? I've seen used SM with fresh "racing" engines going for mid-high $20's. I'm only saying this because it seams there are at least a couple classes cheaper than that. FV/F1st right on the top of my head would certainly be cheaper.

I seriously doubt it costs any more to even run my FE for a season than it does to run an SM competitively for a season. The performance experience would be vastly different between the two as well.

[Stan Clayton]

SCCA actually reduced the number of classes by combining CSR, DSR, and S2 into P1 and P2.

Yep, and both the Silver-Car and the TracKing are homologated in the P1/2, so I'm not seeing the problem. If the Formula Lites guys want to run in FA, the Honda is already approved there. Looks like a win-win all around!

[R. Pare]

Gotta love the rod ends in bending on the Silvercar.

Makes me wonder just how bad the engineering is on the rest of it........

[TrackCars.com]

I saw that. That's why I asked.
Would be more appropriate in GT and as for competitive? Not a chance.

GT cars are based on an OEM chassis. The TracKing is a space frame chassis silhouette car. The TracKing has proven faster than a Porsche GT Cup, Norma M20 with 2 liter Honda motors and several other Formula cars in FFSA and FIA hill climb championships. I'll find some results and post shortly.

Here are the results from last years biggest French Hill climb.

http://www.rallycross-photo.com/heuv...ont-dore-2016/

The TracKing placed 12th overall.

I will agree the TracKing may not be competitive in P1. We asked the SCCA specifically for P2 homologation due to the flat bottom rear diffuser tube frame design, but they gave us a P1 and P2 homologation regardless.

[Bill Manofsky]

Aren't new SM (ones capable of winning the Runoffs) going for $35-40k with annual engine rebuilds necessary at something like $4-6k depending on the builder? I've seen used SM with fresh "racing" engines going for mid-high $20's. I'm only saying this because it seams there are at least a couple classes cheaper than that. FV/F1st right on the top of my head would certainly be cheaper.

I seriously doubt it costs any more to even run my FE for a season than it does to run an SM competitively for a season. The performance experience would be vastly different between the two as well.

SM is not the only class to run a Miata in SCCA. There is ITA and also the Sealed Spec Miata class for the 1.6 NA's being run as a regional only class. They dyno seal the engines to stock hp. No more $20,000 engines.

1.6L NA Miatas are now vintage in some race series. I also ran mine as a Club Racer in VARA in southern California.

I mean, if SCCA wants to make the club for the only few people who can afford $75,000 cars, then I wish them all the luck and success...

[Stan Clayton]

I mean, if SCCA wants to make the club for the only few people who can afford $75,000 cars, then I wish them all the luck and success...

*Checks calendar*...yep, it's winter time...time for this thread again.

[TrackCars.com]

Gotta love the rod ends in bending on the Silvercar.

Makes me wonder just how bad the engineering is on the rest of it........

I have been told by the manufacturer that most if not all Spanish made CM class hill climb cars are excluded from German FIA hill climb events due to the lack of proper safety engineering. The Germans are sticklers when it comes to safety and fabrication.

[Fred Michael]

GT cars ARE space frame silhouette cars, but if you want to run in P2 more power to you.
Is the 220hp you advertise on a P2 legal engine with the 38.5mm restrictor that is required starting in April?

GT cars are based on an OEM chassis. The TracKing is a space frame chassis silhouette car. The TracKing has proven faster than a Porsche GT Cup, Norma M20 with 2 liter Honda motors and several other Formula cars in FFSA and FIA hill climb championships. I'll find some results and post shortly.

Here are the results from last years biggest French Hill climb.

http://www.rallycross-photo.com/heuv...ont-dore-2016/

The TracKing placed 12th overall.

I will agree the TracKing may not be competitive in P1. We asked the SCCA specifically for P2 homologation due to the flat bottom rear diffuser tube frame design, but they gave us a P1 and P2 homologation regardless.

[TrackCars.com]

GT cars ARE space frame silhouette cars, but if you want to run in P2 more power to you.
Is the 220hp you advertise on a P2 legal engine with the 38.5mm restrictor that is required starting in April?

Which GT class are you referring to? I assumed you were referring to FIA GT3 type cars which typically are production cars. Of course, I would want the car homologated in a class where the car meets the technical specifications and will be most competitive.

The engine is a 1340cc Hayabusa. A restrictor can be fitted as required.

If there is no competitive fit in SCCA, then the car's appeal for racing in the states will be narrowed down to racing in time trials, hill climbs and perhaps NASA unlimited races.

For what its worth, here is a video clip showing CM prototypes facing off with open cockpit prototypes in Spain. The competition appears to be relatively close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic1TgmX3o1Y

[Fred Michael]

No I was not referring to FIA GT3.
We are talking SCCA. I doubt that it fits any GT class but it doesn't matter. Not my problem.
What kind of HP will the Busa put out in stock form with the proper P2 restrictor and will that be competitive is the question.
I am not trying to be an ass, even though I am sure it looks that way, but you are saying it will be competitive in P2 and I have serious doubts about that.

[Bill Bonow]

Fred didn't mention it, but there is also a power to weight factor. Based on the numbers from the website, add the average driver, gear, radios, cool suit, etc. and the car is moving close to the 1300 lb. mark.

Don't want to turn this into a bash fest, I'm sure the car is great for the purpose it was originally designed. My .02 is that with SCCA P2 rules applied to the engine and weight creeping up there, it may be a challenge to get the car to the pointy end of a Runoffs P2 grid.

[Stan Clayton]

GT cars ARE space frame silhouette cars, but if you want to run in P2 more power to you.
Is the 220hp you advertise on a P2 legal engine with the 38.5mm restrictor that is required starting in April?

Not true, Fred. Alternate materials for the bodywork are permitted, but the bodywork must be a faithful replica of the stock bodywork. Silhouette cars are not permitted in any SCCA national class.

As to whether a given car is capable of running at the pointy end of a Runoffs field...well, that has never been the formal classification criteria.

[Bill Bonow]

As to whether a given car is capable of running at the pointy end of a Runoffs field...well, that has never been the formal classification criteria.

Stan,

100% agreed. Just voicing my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.....

[TrackCars.com]

No I was not referring to FIA GT3.
We are talking SCCA. I doubt that it fits any GT class but it doesn't matter. Not my problem.
What kind of HP will the Busa put out in stock form with the proper P2 restrictor and will that be competitive is the question.
I am not trying to be an ass, even though I am sure it looks that way, but you are saying it will be competitive in P2 and I have serious doubts about that.

Yeah my bad, when you said GT for some reason GT3 came to mind. I have to keep changing my thinking back and forth from FIA to SCCA, lol. Anyway I have solid engine dyno numbers and they are somewhere in the 275 range at the crank. Not sure on the power loses with a 38.5mm restrictor though. The motor is has more usable torque than a 1000cc motor so that might help somewhat. I'm not taking anything personal and not trying to glorify the car. I am basing our decision to compete in P2 as the design of the car is closely aligned to the P2 requirements and the car has proven quick against other open wheel P2 type cars and Formula/Prototype hill climb cars in Europe. The only way to know for sure is to have it race head to head with a hot shoe behind the wheel.

That being said, what SCCA GT category did you have in mind specifically? I have seen the cars in those categories and not sure if the TracKing is a good fit. Seems the cars with better straight away speed will be an issue during wheel to wheel racing. I found that out during testing. The TracKing would kill heavier more powerful cars like Corvettes in the braking zones and corners, but they would pull away on the straights. The TracKing might be too competitive for the smaller displacement engine GT classless as well.

[TrackCars.com]

Fred didn't mention it, but there is also a power to weight factor. Based on the numbers from the website, add the average driver, gear, radios, cool suit, etc. and the car is moving close to the 1300 lb. mark.

Don't want to turn this into a bash fest, I'm sure the car is great for the purpose it was originally designed. My .02 is that with SCCA P2 rules applied to the engine and weight creeping up there, it may be a challenge to get the car to the pointy end of a Runoffs P2 grid.

Like any car new to a series it probably won't be super competitive right out of the box. The current cars in P2 have a lot of development over the years particularly in the downforce vs drag department. Again if anyone has any better ideas as far as a class is concerned, I'm open to discussion.