FV - oil quantity and specs

[ApexKartSports]

purchased a D13 early spring and looking for suggestions on recommended oil and qty..

I had the car shipped from Canada less fluids and looking for a good place to start regarding qty and brand / weight. I got dyno and build sheets but could not find anything regarding what they were using for oil, nor did the seller remember ?

Any thoughts regarding this are appreciated. Thanks in advance.. George V @ ApexKartSports

978-479-7974 or email apexkart@comcast.net

[Steve Davis]

George,
Since you have no history, I'd suggest you put in 4 1/2 qts of Valvoline 20W50 Synthetic VR1 Racing oil. I'd also suggest using Joe Gibbs Synthetic 90W gear oil. You can't go wrong with those choices. Add gear oil until you can just touch oil with your little finger reaching into the fill hole as far as you can.

Crank the car, warm it up and drive it, if possible, enough to get some heat into the oil and then check it at idle on a level surface. It should 'stick' about 1/2 to 1 qt ABOVE the normal fill mark on the stick - but the oil has to be up around 150+ degrees F for the reading to be reliable. If you can't do it at home, then be SURE to check it after your first on track session.

If you have overfilled the engine, it will blow out any excess into your catch tank (make sure you have one). After your first session, check the dip stick as well as the catch tank.

This is all assuming the engine is in decent condition and not blowing oil due to some other problem.

Previous owner doesn't KNOW what kind and weight of oil was used??? That's a stretch. I hope it meets your expectations.
Good luck.

[bobs66440]

Starting with a thicker oil is safe but not necessarily fast, and let's face it, fast is why we do this right? But you can start safe and sneak up on the right oil. Check your oil pressure at full temp and max RPM on track. You should see at least 30lbs. Most fast guys' oil lights are flickering while driving through the pits at low RPM. Mine is between 8-12 lbs after a race driving back to my pit. I started with 10w 30 racing synthetic and I was at about 60lbs on track and 30 through the pits. This is unecessary and robs HP so I thinned out the oil until I got optimum performance. In the end, you should use what you're comfortable with.

Regarding the gearbox, again, thick oil is safe but creates a lot of drag. I know fast guys that are using Lucas 7.5W with good results and no breakage.

Regarding oil level, if you have an external filter and/or cooler will depend on how much you will need. I run 3/8" above the full line on the dipstick (checked warm at idle). Don't run the engine static more than a few minutes without good fans blowing on it to keep it cool. Without an external filter I was at about 4-3/4 qts full. I added an external filter and an still playing with the levels, but I am around 6-1/2 qts. As mentioned, it will blow out excess oil. It always will because we always run them over filled. Oily engine compartments are a normal thing with these cars.

[mikehinkle]

I run full synthetic Mobil 1 5-20w from WalMart. About $23 for a jug when its on sale. One 5 quart jug is good for a oil change plus 2 race weekends of topping the car off. After 2 weekends change your oil again.

Gear oil should be checked with your pinky however I fill mine until it is about one inch down from the side fill hole. This is to the first line on your pinky or you can make a easy tool to check this like a nail bent at 90 degrees. I run Mobil 1 for gear oil as well, 75w-90.

Many race engines have 3 marks on the dip stick with the middle typically being the factory full mark and the top being the engine builders full mark. Best to take a picture of your dip stick next to a ruler and post it. Then someone can tell you exactly where it should be. If your above the full line your good to run it around the neighborhood and make all the other guys jealous.

DONT try to warm your engine up sitting in one place. Only let it idle for a few minutes unless you are driving it to cool the heads.

[veeracer98]

I believe the Mobil 1 does not have enough ZDDP additive for our flat tappet engines. We used it exclusively for our engines for years but had two camshaft failures a couple of years ago. Now using Redline Racing 10W30.

Dave

DDC racing

[FVRacer21]

I had done a study a few years ago, but why do that if Mobile has already done the work:

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...guide-2016.pdf

Looks like even in the WalMart oil there is variation, but most oil is still around 800.

There are some that Mobile says have around 1200 which is seems to be accepted as the older "normal".

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

I found this also when researching this topic: From the Ferrari Chat Forum

"Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also."

Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group

Chris Z

[Matt Clark]

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so....
Chris Z

those darn airplane people.... *sits at my desk at Lycoming*
I had someone at Brad Penn tell me the same thing.

also, on the subject of Zinc in Mobil, I did some digging a few years ago, and notice High Milege oil had higher Zinc content. I then talked to some FV engine guys who had told me any good synthetic oil was fine, and they liked the HM oil a little more for this fact. Just throwing that out there.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...guide-2016.pdf

[Hardingfv32]

1) Scientific Fact: ZDDP INCREASES friction. It is an anti wear additive.

Reducing wear does not mean you are reducing friction. Google it!

2) These are race engines. Are you trying to win races or save money through reduced maintenance expenses? Do you drive slower through turns to reduce tire wear? Why should engine usage be any different. So it wears a little. Do you think you will actually put enough miles on your FV engine to even be able to measure the wear. ZDDP does not protect the journal bearings.

3) Our valve spring pressures are all most non existent compared to real race engines. Concern for the FV camshaft is unwarranted.

Brian

[mikehinkle]

I started off running racing oil, Valvoline non synthetic.
https://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV2...ine+racing+oil

I ran this because of the high ZDDP content until a well know engine builder in the northeast (guess who) told me that we dont run aggressive enough cam profiles to need racing oil. I don't remember exactly what he said but it was something along the lines of run any synthetic you want.

I'm sure they were running worse oil 20-30 years ago and were going just as fast.

[veeracer98]

Seems like talking about engine oil is akin to talking about politics. For me I'm sticking with the Redline, you might save a few $$ with Mobil 1 but why take a chance.

[problemchild]

Ask your engine builder. If you cannot trust your builder to recommend your oil, why would you trust him to build your engine?

If you don't have an engine builder, ask another racer who has a really good builder, and follow that advice.

If you are about to run a FV engine that you know nothing about, from an unknown builder, with no council, and without rebuilding it before use, then the selected oil probably is not important anyway