Build Thread: Reynard

[xmazdatracy]

So... I guess I am a bit/ton younger then most of the people I have met that own (not just drive) formula cars. So I use social media as a way to gain knowledge and leave knowledge, and also for my own recollection. I see that there is no section for build sections on this forum for older FC cars so.

Made room in my garage for a new project by selling my only car that I ever bought new. That was also the same car I spent the last 14 years modding to a car that finally won the season championship and setting a new track record. And not much more to the car to do. Well except cutting the roof off. It was a wagon. I figured it might be better to buy won that it was already done.

If it matters to look at a door slammer here is my old build thread https://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...N-A-ST2-thread But as I said before here is where I will leave a digital track of experiences, opinions, photos, and videos. I only hope this helps people as well as to myself, and not to forget to promote the people whom already have helped me!

Some intro pics to come later. I am sick as hell.

================================================== =============================
just the good stuff

diff preload and backlash

"The side cover preload must be set with NEW bearings and the set up for it done with NEW set up races. Saving the old ones for set up won't work. Total shimming must be done BEFORE you put the pinion back in. This is the only way you can really measure or even feel the amount of preload in there as the pinon turning will get you all messed up.

The total shim needed will be the amount to hold the diff in place plus some preload- about .008 will do you fine. BUT, the total is shifted from side to side AFTER you put the pinion back in. THIS shifting is what determines the back lash.

The pinion depth must also be set if it's new. This can only be done real well with the proper tool for it. And of course when done you'll need to check the top gear float against the carrier to be sure you didn't shift the pinion back too far (if it's new or you for some reason added shims) and the top gear is sandwhiched to the carrier. Seen those deep thrust washer pockets? That's why.

Now that you've got the total shim established, the pinion depth establishe, assemble it with the dummy races and see where the lash takes you. Keep it at about .005-.007 and you'll be ok. That's assuming it's used and that you check it in various spots. What no dial inditcator? (or set up shims, or depth tool...) then look for a tic-tic for lash rather than a klunk-klunk. Better too lose than too tight. Too lose though and you'll be tearing up the clutch in time....

Ok, when you need to get it there, simply swap the shims from side to side to achieve this result. When done put in the new races (you did change the diff bearings right?) and verify that your dummy races are not dummies. Change if needed of course. All of this requires the heating and cooling of the side covers and the measurments taken AFTER it cools. Screw up now and you'll be taking it apart again and waiting for it to cool all over again!

If the preload is right, the lash right, and the top gear float right you're in business. Turning the box by hand (both studs forward) will produce a light drag on it. Don't panic if it's a bit tight, it'll come into its own."

Torque numbers for gear box

https://taylor-race.com/sites/defaul...MK9numbers.pdf

Reusing Locking Nuts

"The FAA has issued guidelines on the reuse of locking nuts. Specific recommendations have been published for larger sizes (7/16-20 and up), but the general rule is that you should not be able to turn the nut by hand once the locking portion engages the male threads. If you can turn the nut with your fingers, it must be replaced. When in doubt, replace!"

Carb Leaks

FLOODING (OVERFLOWING) Fuel overflowing from the carburetor may be caused by a number of issues:
(1) Float/fuel valve incorrectly adjusted
(2) Defective fuel valve
(3) Defective float
(4) Excessive fuel pressure
(A) incorrect or defective fuel pump
(B) clogged or missing tank vent
(5) Cracked housing

Discussing in order:

(1) Make certain that you have the float adjusted to the manufacturer’s original specifications, and make sure you know HOW the manufacturer measured the adjustment. Some manufacturers specify the distance from the float to the casting without the gasket, some with the gasket, some the distance to the fuel level in the bowl at a specified pressure, and Rochester was probably the most creative, often measuring to a “dimple” on the float itself or the float seam. If you buy an aftermarket rebuilding kit, NEVER rely on the generic specification sheets which come in the kits. Check your factory shop manual or the carburetor manufacturer’s manual.
(2) If the fuel valve is defective, replace it.
(3) If the float is brass, check this link: Brassfloats , if a material other than brass, and there is any doubt, replace the float.
(4) A fuel pressure gauge placed right at the carburetor will confirm/deny the presence of too much pressure. However, one should consider the clogged or missing vent. The fuel tank MUST be vented, or no fuel can exit the tank. Many older vehicles were vented through the gasoline cap. Vented caps were obsoleted because of smog emissions regulations. If the tank vent is clogged or missing, normal ambient temperature change will create either a positive pressure or negative pressure (vacuum) on the tank. Some tanks are located close to the exhaust. As the engine warms the hot exhaust heats the fuel in the tank, and can create excessive pressure in the tank.
(5) Cracked carburetor housings are quite rare; in more than 50 years, I have only seen a hand-full, but the issue CAN exist, ESPECIALLY if the “mechanic” feels the necessity of using some form of Teflon (either tape or paste) on a tapered fuel fitting. Teflon is a fabulous lubricant, and will allow anyone to apply excessive torque to the fitting threads and crack the casting.

FUEL LEAK BY THROTTLE SHAFT(S) A common complaint today is fuel dripping out of the throttle body by the throttle shaft AFTER the engine is switched off. While a number of issues may cause this problem, by far the most common issue is the volatility of modern fuel. Mechanical fuel pumps have a check valve which prevents fuel from moving back to the fuel tank. The problem is as follows:

(1) After the engine is switched off, heat from the engine heats the fuel in the fuel line.
(2) The expanding fuel (increased volatility) creates pressure in the fuel line from the pump to the carburetor.
(3) The check valve prevents the fuel backing up through the fuel pump.
(4) The pressure increases to a point the float/fuel valve combination in the carburetor cannot withstand the pressure.
(5) An amount of fuel (usually from a teaspoon to a couple of tablespoons) flows into the fuel bowl of the carburetor.
(6) This raises the fuel level in the bowl above the main discharge nozzle(s).
(7) Fuel flows through the main discharge nozzle(s) and drips onto the throttle plate(s) which is/are closed, and exits out beside the throttle shaft(s) dripping onto the intake.

Possible solutions:

(1) IF POSSIBLE, AVOID ETHANOL LACED FUEL! Sometimes you can buy real gasoline at a marina
(2) Buy the lowest octane name-brand fuel that does not ping or detonate in your engine (the higher grades often have more ethanol)
(3) Install a “vapor return line” (take a look at return lines used on many factory air-conditioned cars)
(4) Learn to live with the issue.

Carb jetting

Carb Jets:
The secondaries should be mechanically operated. This means that any time you are at full throttle (and this will be 95% of the time), both the primary and secondary will be open. If you are seeing a discontinuity in the EGT's, that may be due to the auxiliary enrichment tubes (put in by various engine builders to modify the fuel distribution) starting their flow with a slight delay - this is normal.

The main jets are located in the bottom of the float bowl. To change them you remove the top of the carb (6 screws) -- if you are careful not to tear the gasket, it can be reused. You will probably have different jets for the primary & secondary venturi -- so be careful to note what size is currently used for each one. A "one jet leaner" usually mean a differnence of 5 (i.e. change a 175 to a 170 - smaller numbers are leaner).

Your carb also has air corrector jets (aka A/C) -- you also remove the carb top to access these -- but they are located on the upward face of the carb body. Again, primary and secondary values may be different. The air correctors adjust the mixture just at the high flows (i.e. high RPMs) -- three steps of A/C jets is about the same as one step of main jets. A larger A/C jet will make the mixture leaner, and a smaller one will make it richer.

Finally, you will find idle jets on the side of the carbs in the main body, just below the top. You unscrew the holder, and the jet sits in that. Watch out not to lose the rubber o-ring under the jet holder. Idle jets are hardly ever changed, but you should pull them out to make sure a piece of debris hasn't clogged the very small orifice.

The mixture screw located near the base of the carb will adjust the mixture at idle. With the engine running at idle (usually 900 - 1000 RPMs), screw it in until the engine starts to run rough, then back it out again until the engine again begins to sound a bit rough -- at that point, screw it back in 1/4 to 1/2 turn and you're all set -- a smooth running engine.

DaveW’s jets at one time when he had a Pinto were:

JET PRI SEC
AIR 200 140
FUEL 135 165
(FOR AVGAS, ~55F)

Rollin Butler’s starting point.:
JET PRI SEC
Air 175 160
Fuel 145 155

Primary air is always bigger.
Secondary fuel is always bigger.

From: Dave Weitzenhof

1. The primary jets have more effect on cyl 2 & 3 than on cyl 1 & 4. The secondaries have more effect on 1 & 4 than on 2 & 3. Therefore, if 2 & 3 are rich compared to 1 & 4 (plug check after clean-cut, etc.), lean primaries or richen secondaries, and vice-versa.

2. A long time ago, before the widespread use of EGT sensors, I very successfully used a seat-of-the-pants trackside method of setting the over-all degree of richness. I would warm up the engine to operating temp, and then immediately run it to ~3000 rpm, let the rpm stabilize, and then open the throttle wide open for ~1 second. If the engine died or hesitated for more than ~1/2 second, the jets were too lean and needed to be richened. If the engine just barely hesitated and then revved cleanly, the jets were just right. If it picked up smoothly with no hesitation, the jets were too rich. All of this assumes no major carb or other engine problems. This really did work quite well.

Tire pressures

Ah... tire pressures.
It is an art form.
I looked over a few years of notes when running a Reynard with Hoosier bias tires.
Cold pressures were all over the map.
The goal was to not be over 19 to 20 hot.
When the car was sorted and the weather was normal we would start with 15 all around.
Cold days with long straights, maybe higher.
Used tires usually take a bit more air. The thinner the rubber pad, the less it holds in heat.
Softer pressures can cause the carcass to flex more and thus build heat. Too soft and the footprint will distort.
Tire pressures also effect spring rate.

If i was coaching you at your first sessions, I'd start you at 15 square. After you do some hard laps I'd call you in and check pressures on pit lane. Then adjust accordingly and send you out again.

We'd set ride height so it would just "nick" a few places on the track. That would mean that on the out lap on cold tires the rub strips would be talking you you a lot of places until the tires warmed up.

Remember, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Setting the timming

I'm hoping I timed this right. I believe the cam is a touch behind/retarded cause that is what you guys run...




Gear Chart



Wheel Sealing Thread

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=sealing+rims

Engine Stuff

Redline…..…...6800 rpm

Bore = 3.575"
Stroke = 3.029"
Rod length = 4.990"
Wrist pin = .944"

1 inch = 2.54 cm.

Race Engine Clearances: (BAT catalog)
Main Bearings……………… .002"
Con rod bearings…………… .0015 - .002"
Con rod side clearance……. .015"
Camshaft bearings………… .0018 - .0026"
Piston to cyl. Wall………… .005"
Top Ring End Gap………… .015"
Crankshaft end float………. .0032 - .011"
Camshaft end float………… .0016 - .0047"
Wrist pin………………….. .0007 - .00153"
Intake valve stem………… .002"
Exhaust valve stem………. .0025"
Intake valve lash………….. .010" cold ? (.008)
Exhaust valve lash……….. .012" cold ? (.010)

Race Engine Torque Specs: (BAT catalog)
Head bolt…………………… 85 lbs./ft.
Main cap bolt………………. 75 lbs./ft.
Rod cap bolt…(Stock)….. 35 lbs./ft ? (45) Oliver is different
Flywheel bolt ……………… 50 lbs./ft. ? (75)
Pressure plate bolt…………. 15 lbs./ft.
Oil Sump bolt……………… 8 lbs./ft.
Rocker Cover bolt…………. 5 lbs./ft.
Front Cover Bolt…………… 13 lbs./ft.
Water Neck bolt…………… 15 lbs./ft.
Camshaft Sprocket Bolt…… 35 lbs./ft.
Crankshaft Pulley bolt…….. 28 lbs./ft.
Intake Manifold bolt………. 15 lbs./ft.
Exhaust manifold bolt ……. 15 lbs./ft.
Carb to manifold nut……… 15 lbs./ft.
Spark Plug………………… 20 lbs./ft.


Phone Numbers:

Cricket Farm Motors 864-277-1268 Rollin Butler (SC)
Quicksilver 301-698-9009 Sandy Shamlian (Maryland)
Elite 262-306-1977 Steve Knapp (Wisconsin)
Farley 816-431-3550 (Missouri)
Loyning 503-775-2999 (Oregon)
Ivey 503-255-1123 (Oregon)
BAT 941-355-0005 (Sarasota FL)

Block:
GCR says:
2.0 NE series
Nominal bore 90.84 mm
Nominal stroke 76.95mm
Casting # HM6015BA or HM6015B3


Holes in the stock block to make sure you put something (a plug) into:
Water temp – right side rear
Front hole next to #1 journal
Inside oil filter
Dip stick
Top of block breather (filter side)
Rear of block below freeze plug
Two ports around jack shaft

Butler says main bearing clearance = .002 - .003"
Quicksilver says main bearing clearance = .002
New head gasket = .054", old = .052" Ford Motorsports "red"

Planing block will get you (per Kevin Roberts):
Plane .010" = 1.63cc/hole
Plane .020" = 3.26cc/hole

Head bolt torque………………………………85 lbs.
Pistons shall not protrude above the cylinder block surface @ TDC.
Main cap torque = 75 lb.

Pistons:
GCR says:
…shall be standard Ford production
Weighed with rings and pin, rod and bolts (no bearings)
p/n 80HM6102LA 1332.5 grams
p/n 85HM6102DA 1255 grams
p/n 21426 casting 21426 1255 grams
Piston p/n 21426, casting p/n 21426 (AE Hepolite)
oversize = std Grade "C" (90.83/90.82)
New Ford Forged Pistons p/n M-6102-B200 J&E
J&E Pistons p/n M-6102-B200


Wisco Pistons for 5.7 rods = #6119A3 .030" over

Butler says piston/wall clearance .0045" to .0055 max.
…..about pin high on the skirt.
Loyning says piston/wall clearance .005" max
Cast pistons are worthless.
Loyning says Moly top ring gap = .015"
Quicksilver says Moly top ring gap = .015"
Butler says Moly top ring gap = .015"

Old piston top ring = 5/64"
New piston top ring = 1/16"


Oil:

Sandy (QS) say use Valvoline 13/30 Synthetic if you have an oil cooler.
I use Mobil 1 15/50
Oil filter…………………Wix 51348? NAPA gold 1335, 1374 may be better

Cams:
Farley says cam timing 2 – 4 degrees retard.
Quicksilver says 3 degrees retard.

Max lift against cam angle with zero tappet clearance measured in mm:
Angle Opening Closing
0 10.442 10.442
45 3.86 3.86
90 0.20 0.01

Same for intake and exhaust.

Maximum valve lift against cam angle w/zero tappet clearance = 0.400 +/- .005"
New Crane cam is an allowable substitute.

Valve clearance: Intake .008" Exhaust .010"
Adjust between cam and follower…..

Cam timing: what the 2.0 "straight up" intake valve centerline cam timing number should be…

The long straight tracks should shoot for a 114 – 115 degree centerline (more retarded) on the number one intake lobe.

- To increase torque on the short tracks the number should be reduced to 112 – 113.

Note: Retarding the cam by installing a 3-degree offset keys will not guarantee the cam is retarded 3 degrees. There are many factors/tolerances that can change the cam angle so it needs to be checked and corrected with the appropriate offset key. I say should because the offset keys themselves are not always exactly what they are marked. Check – adjust – and re-check.


Rods:
Oliver Rods = M-6200-C200
Butler Rod bearing clearance = .002"
Quicksilver rod bearing clearance = .0015 - .002"
Butler says old cast rods only good for 2000 miles.
Rod p/n M-6200-C200 is permitted (Oliver)
Rod bearing keepers face oil filter on block!!!!
Butler does 45lb. Rod torque
Old forged stock rods:
70HM-6205-B-A
knot sticks out side of pin end "+8BA"
"F" on side of casting


Head:
Cylinder head volume = 49cc min. (not including head gasket)
Head gasket = .9mm min. thick
Cylinder aperture = 92 mm
Max diameter of inlet port at manifold head face 39.5 mm.
Max dimensions of exhaust port at manifold face 35.5mm X 27 mm.
It is permissible to reshape inlet and exhaust port by removal of metal within limits.
Inlet valve 42.2mm
Exhaust valve 36.2mm
Valve stem 8.4mm
Butler uses yellow stripe valve springs (BAT).
Valve clearance: Intake .008" Exhaust .010"
Adjust between cam and follower…..

OK. I called QS and asked what they do to set the valves cold.

When they set up the head on the bench, for the intakes, they use 0.010 on cylinders 1-3, and 0.009 on cyl # 4. For the exhausts they use 0.013 for # 1, and 0.012 for the rest. They might have to adjust one or two slightly hot after they're run in, but that gives them the desired 0.008 intake and 0.010 exhaust (hot).

So the 0.002 extra clearance, as I said before, seems about right for cold valve adjustments of a head mounted on a block.



Head bolt torque………………………………85 lbs.

Flywheel:
Min weight = 14.4 lb. w/ring
Butler says 85lb w/blue locktite.
ARP says No Washers under bolts! P/N 151-2801
Torque to 75lb. W/ARP moly lube.
Torque to 85lb w/ 30wt oil.
Tightening sequence:
1. 70 lb.
2. Rap with hammer
3. 70 lb.
4. 75 lb.


Titan Oil Pump:
The chamfer on each round pump gear goes down into the pump body spigot.

Crankshaft:
Min. weight = 27.5 lb.

Ignition systems:
Spark Plugs…………NGK AP8FS <AP9FS>? (NGK 2227?)
.028" w/points, bigger w/electronic ignition
Bosch – Pertronix #1843
Crane 3000-0021 (or 700-0021) and 700-2231
Points……… .013… dwell 48 – 50 degrees
Points really around .014 !!!!

Carb issues:

Is it dumping fuel at idle (too high float level) or…
During cornering (need to solder shut the secondary idle jet)? or…
Is it some other problem?

Dave W. says: Is the secondary idle jet still working (open)? If it is, solder it shut. Fuel will slosh in the carb and come out through this jet into the throttle plate area, causing a bog. This is exacerbated by higher float levels.


Barry Haynie said: An interesting twist to this phenomena I often experience is the motor shutting off under very hard straight line braking. This seems to be a float-level sensitive deal. By raising the level (icroscopically!) and testing and resetting etc I can get it to not do this.
Any comments on this or similar experiences?

Dave W. replied: Barry, since the float bowl is at the front of the carb, meaning that the jets are in the rear of the bowl, it sounds like you are uncovering the jets, causing a very lean mixture, stopping the engine. As you said, raising the float level would help this, but may cause fuel to slosh into unwanted places. QS does extensive baffling, etc. to prevent this.

From one of Keith's previous posts:

"I set the seam in the float, parallel with the carb top and have a 1/4" float drop. Remove the carb top; slowly turn it upside down until the float seats the needle. At that point (before it compresses the spring loaded ball) the float seam should be parallel with the carb top. Measuring (side view) the seam, in the middle of the float, I want the drop measurement to be 1/4" more, when I now turn the carb top back (as if re-assembling the carb). If the drop is too small, it slows down the fuel flow in the bowl. If too much, it can "hang" in some corners and cause the car to stumble. I hope this helps. Keith@Averill

From: Dave Weitzenhof

1. The primary jets have more effect on cyl 2 & 3 than on cyl 1 & 4. The secondaries have more effect on 1 & 4 than on 2 & 3. Therefore, if 2 & 3 are rich compared to 1 & 4 (plug check after clean-cut, etc.), lean primaries or richen secondaries, and vice-versa.

2. A long time ago, before the widespread use of EGT sensors, I very successfully used a seat-of-the-pants trackside method of setting the over-all degree of richness. I would warm up the engine to operating temp, and then immediately run it to ~3000 rpm, let the rpm stabilize, and then open the throttle wide open for ~1 second. If the engine died or hesitated for more than ~1/2 second, the jets were too lean and needed to be richened. If the engine just barely hesitated and then revved cleanly, the jets were just right. If it picked up smoothly with no hesitation, the jets were too rich. All of this assumes no major carb or other engine problems. This really did work quite well.

Kill Switch

[rickb99]

Exactly what Reynard are you going to build? Are you planning on welding up a frame or, purchase a ready to go frame and add to it?

[OneWayOut]

Welcome to the club! I'm also much younger than most here on the forum, but I think you'll find that even the older guys are pretty helpful. They don't post a lot, but those that do seem to know what they are talking about.

I'm a ex-Miata racer that converted to a 98 Van Diemen, and also live in the Chicagoland area. Let me know if you ever need some help wrenching on your new toy.

Bonus picture from the OP's Mazda thread.

[xmazdatracy]

Exactly what Reynard are you going to build? Are you planning on welding up a frame or, purchase a ready to go frame and add to it?

"Build Thread" is a internet term meaning of which is a individuals single thread on all the stuff that person has done, sorted, undone, experimented, suped-up, and general posted results of stuff they have tried. This is instead of posting across dozens, even hundreds of threads making very useful information almost impossible to find in larger forums. So as older formula cars become more affordable to younger people (the computer savvy type) there will be easier to find info on certain cars such as my 87-90 reynard.

That being said I hope you will stay active here in my thread and help me out as I see you have posted a bunch of great info here over the years and I am sure you would be a great help to me as I re-sort and refresh this car.

[xmazdatracy]

Welcome to the club! I'm also much younger than most here on the forum, but I think you'll find that even the older guys are pretty helpful. They don't post a lot, but those that do seem to know what they are talking about.

I'm a ex-Miata racer that converted to a 98 Van Diemen, and also live in the Chicagoland area. Let me know if you ever need some help wrenching on your new toy.

Bonus picture from the OP's Mazda thread.

Cool! I do have many many questions, so any help is very much appreciated. And here is one now, lol. Does anyone know what are theses two post thingys?

[2BWise]

I couldn't tell you what those posts are as I've not seen those on the front of a Reynard before. I don't see them needing any usage. I took a look at this car before you and have a bunch of notes on what work was required, so if you have any questions I can help out some. In the box of spares there was a small X-brace which is the droop limiter for the front suspension and goes right where the damper canisters are currently mounted. Be sure to install that.

[Purple Frog]

I've owned and raced 4 different Reynards in the 87 - 90 species.
I have never seen posts mounted on that plate.
I'm guesing in a previos life they were alignment pins for a better front crush box.
I liked to run an aluminum crush box fabed to carry the wing pole.

There may be a picture out on Averill's site.

I agree with 2B , I always ran the droop limiter. The canisters can be moved to that front cross beam.

Are those Fox shocks? On a few cars of that era, the shocks were internally droop limited. When they ran in the pro series the guys would have different shocks for different courses, or be constantly changing the internals for each track. Not a good setup for clubbies. Most cars have evolved away from that by now, using the external droop limiter. But, while the shocks are on it, I would check droop.

You now own on of the best starter cars ever. A starter car you can keep racing your whole career. enjoy!

Ask away as you rebuild.

[xmazdatracy]

Here are some other pics. Rear pic of the badly twisted chassis, pic of wrong rotor, pic of the transponder that must have been run over and dragged. And the last pic is where I am now in this long long road of re-sorting this car.

I love to post up helpful photos, and make racing vids. So if anyone has any questions or wanted pics let me know as this will be just short of a frame off rebuild. Also I will link up other threads to here in hopes aid in info gathering.

[Purple Frog]

When you have it apart, that is a good time to raise the shoulder harness mounts to be HANS compatible.

You have a very good wing/diffuser package. Don't assume the chassis is bent just because all the bodywork, diffuser, and wing look crooked. It could just be bad assembly.

The brake pad wear overlap on the rotor is not that unusual. I've seen it on many cars. You can live with it, or get slightly larger diameter rotors.

If the transponder still works be happy. It probably never fell off. Probably got hit by its own tire in a shunt. Not unusual to have "donuts" in that section of the bodywork.

[2BWise]

I don't believe the chassis is tweaked. That wing mount has been turned into swiss cheese and is likely not strong enough to support the wing. It is cantilevered pretty far off the back of the car.

The rotors aren't incorrect, but its the rotor combination with the LD20 calipers. They don't use the entire pad, so there is extra material apparent as the pad wears.

[xmazdatracy]

I couldn't tell you what those posts are as I've not seen those on the front of a Reynard before. I don't see them needing any usage. I took a look at this car before you and have a bunch of notes on what work was required, so if you have any questions I can help out some. In the box of spares there was a small X-brace which is the droop limiter for the front suspension and goes right where the damper canisters are currently mounted. Be sure to install that.

Ahh I see where that bolts up! OK, but what is the function of limiting the front suspension travel?

I've owned and raced 4 different Reynards in the 87 - 90 species.
I have never seen posts mounted on that plate.
I'm guesing in a previos life they were alignment pins for a better front crush box.
I liked to run an aluminum crush box fabed to carry the wing pole.

There may be a picture out on Averill's site.

I agree with 2B , I always ran the droop limiter. The canisters can be moved to that front cross beam.

Are those Fox shocks? On a few cars of that era, the shocks were internally droop limited. When they ran in the pro series the guys would have different shocks for different courses, or be constantly changing the internals for each track. Not a good setup for clubbies. Most cars have evolved away from that by now, using the external droop limiter. But, while the shocks are on it, I would check droop.

You now own on of the best starter cars ever. A starter car you can keep racing your whole career. enjoy!

Ask away as you rebuild.

Yes Fox Shocks. I did see that the box of internals did not go with the car to the previous owner. However my club only runs three tracks a year and I only go to two of them. And I rebuild Fox Shocks as part of my job anyway.

Is there a how-to on checking droop anywhere I can use?

Thanks for the help already peoples!

[xmazdatracy]

I don't believe the chassis is tweaked. That wing mount has been turned into swiss cheese and is likely not strong enough to support the wing. It is cantilevered pretty far off the back of the car.

The rotors aren't incorrect, but its the rotor combination with the LD20 calipers. They don't use the entire pad, so there is extra material apparent as the pad wears.

The car rocks pretty bad on the stands. Jeremy had the car on a cart so you could not see that, but I still dont care. I read that Averill does chassis repair. Anyone make better wing mounts?

There looks to be room in the caliper for a larger rotor, also I was taught that having the pad fall off the rotor like that is very dangerous. And in Pegasus they have a larger rotor for use in the LD20s. I just dont think that is being used. I am not afraid to spend money on this little guy. I have a felling it will be extremely cheaper than the last car I had to make everything custom for.

[problemchild]

Perhaps the pins are to mount bars to set toe.

I would just knock off the step on the brake pads occasionally, leave the brake components as they are, and spend my resources on things that need immediate attention. I have seen rotor/pad misalignment on many cars, including my Reynard. As long as the person checking the brake pads is aware, it is not an issue.

[Purple Frog]

I think Problemchild figured it out. 10 points.

That pad wear is not an issue if you check it every session or four. Just pop the pad and file it down. It could be the pads are an off brand.

Droop (in my experience) was always set to be very close to ride height with driver and fuel.
In other words... basically zero droop.

Steve Lathrop will jump on and tell us all that it is just a bandaid fix. He's right. But, that's what most quick Reynards do.

"rocking on stands" is not a accurate measurement. just saying. Don't be surprised that a 25+ year old car is slightly out of true. Much can be done inexpensively on a good set-up pad to adjust accordingly.

[xmazdatracy]

a good thread on droop
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...ighlight=Droop

a good note from purple frog in that thread

Richard Pare wrote in 2001:

Droop limiting can work well on softly sprung older cars, but what they are really telling you is that your car is poorly set up and poorly balanced to begin with.

The article is nicely written, but horribly wrong. I don't have a printout of the article to refer to while writing this, so I may miss a point or two, but I'll attempt a simple explanation as to what is really happening.

First off, NOTHING you can do to the car will prevent weight transfer - it's a fact of physics that can't be undone. You CAN lessen weight transfer a bit by lowering the car, or lowering the car's CG, or by widening the track, but you can't stop it from happening.

Weight is transferred by 2 main means - Geometric Transfer, and Roll Transfer.

Geometric transfer happens instantaniously when the wheel is turned or the brakes applied. It is a transfer of weight directly thru the suspension arms from one side to the other, and is a function of roll center height and CG height. It is not the same as the lever arm effect of the CG around the roll axis.

Think of it as being like what happens when you push with our hand on the side of a box. The force that you are pushing with is instantaniously transferred to the contact points between the box and whatever it is sitting on.

Roll transfer is what happens as you continue to push on the box. Assuming that you are pushing at some height above the bottom of the box, your hand acts as a force against a lever, creating a torque moment arond the base of the box. That levering effect transfers the weight of the box to the side away from your hand.

The CG of the car is essentially the same thing as your hand in that example - it is a force located at a certain distance above the roll axis. How effective it is in producing roll is determined by how far above the roll axis it is located. That's the 'lever arm' part of the analogy. The higher the roll center, and/or the lower the CG, the less leverage there is (more geometric, or "built in" roll resistance) and the less the car will roll for any given cornering force. BUT WEIGHT IS STILL TRANSFERRED ACCORDING TO HOW STRONG THE CORNERING FORCE IS.

So what happens in a non-droop limited car when you turn the wheel?

1 - A certain amount of weight is immeadiately transferred thru the suspension arms. G-loading starts, and roll begins.

2 - Roll continues until the forces balance each other. How far the car rolls is determined by CG height, roll center height, track width, roll resistance, and cornering force. How much weight is transferred is a function of the same.

If the car is softly sprung, the car will roll a lot. As a consequence, the roll center position changes according to the suspension geometry. At the front, it will generally get lower,( becase of the "dive" from brking) and will usually move sideways a bit (sometimes quite a bit). As the roll center goes lower, the built in roll resistance is decreased, and the car rolls farther, and so on. At the same time, the rear roll center will rise as the suspension rises from the braking forces. As it rises, it's roll resistance increases, but more importantly, the amount of weight transfer to the front also increases.

If the transfer is too much, the front outside tire has too much weight transferred onto it, and at the same time the front suspension is also being asked to contribute more than it's fair share to the overall roll resistance couple. The result is a sloppy feeling car with a lot of push.

In the droop limited car, Geometric weight transfer also takes place immeadiately, but then things change a bit.

Since the inside wheel is already at full droop, the car can no longer roll about the roll center. If the car is to roll at all, the pivot point becomes the contact patch of the inside tire. This actually will raise the amount of Geometric roll resistance a fair amount, and the car won't roll as far. But more important is what happens to the effecive rate of the sway bar - it is cut in HALF! How?

Remember that the inside wheel cannot go into droop so the lever arm on that side of the bar is now in a fixed position. The only twist introduced into the sway bar is now solely thru the outer lever arm, and so the bar's contribution to roll resistance is cut in half. The overall roll resistance couple is biased more to the rear now, and the car doesn't develop as much push.

Another phenomenon that happens is that more weight stays on the inside wheel, so it can now contribute more traction than it could before. Remember that the contact patch is now the roll pivot point - for the car to roll at all, a certain amount of weight has to be on that patch. If the tire is completely unloaded, the roll pivot point then becomes the outer contact patch. When that happens, the car will stop rolling, and raise the inside tire off of the ground, at which point you can't corner any faster.

If you add preload to the springs, you accomplish 2 things :

1- the nose won't dive as far under braking. Rear-to-front weight transfer still happens,but will be decreased slightly - the max pitch attitude is decreased (the nose doesn't dive as much) so the front roll center stays higher, because the weight transferred first has to overcome the amount of the preload.

2- Roll stops sooner as the inside tire has less droop available.

If the springs are preloaded enough, the amount of Geometric weight transfer is increased, which results in the faster reactions at the front

If the springs are preloaded too much (such as that the nose doesn't dive at all under braking), then the Geometric weight transfer phenomemon becomes the sole means of weight transfer , and quicky overloads the tire contact patches, resulting a "skatey" and "darty" car.

The "sweet spot" is where the car is still able to dive a bit under braking, leaving a bit of droop available for the inside tire. The car will still roll a bit, according to the amount of cornering force produced, but the inside tire will run out of droop travel at exactly the right g-loading where push would usually start ( remember the halving of the sway bar rate & the resultant roll couple balance)

Whew! Sorry I couldn't make that any shorter - it's a really complex set of relationships that is going on when you droop limit. I over-simplified some of it for the sake of brevity, so the description isn't 100% accurate.

While you CAN get good results by droop-limiting, it really is not the right way to balance out the car - it's a crutch. You are only masking the symptom, not curing the problem.

It also can be a real bitch to find that "sweet spot", especially if you aren't really, really consistant in your setups.

But, if you think that is hard, try droop limiting on the rear to cure a loose condition in a particular corner only!

[xmazdatracy]

"rocking on stands" is not a accurate measurement. just saying. Don't be surprised that a 25+ year old car is slightly out of true. Much can be done inexpensively on a good set-up pad to adjust accordingly.

True. I just like to tinker and I guess I am finding problems that are not really there. I have my list of needed to do stuff from Averill to keep me busy this weekend anyway.

[Purple Frog]

The Search function on Apexspeed is worth thousands of dollars. Glad to see you already know that. Many of us gray hairs are getting tired of typing the same thing over and over.

[OneWayOut]

Perhaps the pins are to mount bars to set toe.

This was my first thought as well. Did the car come with alignment bars?

In the sale photos, it does look like some sort of key was shoved in those holes.

[problemchild]

I think it is unrealistic to expect a 30 year old car to have a perfectly straight chassis. Fortunately, you have adjustable suspension components and you should be able to bring it to competitive standards against other similarly valued and aged cars.

The one exception to that comment is the suspension rockers. They really should be matched up so that left and right sides match for angle. Quality control was a problem when the parts were new, so with 30 years of curb-banging, crash repairs, replacement parts, etc, you need to match them up side to side. Some tweeking, cutting, welding may be required. I built adjustable eyelits for the shocks on my Reynard to circumvent the rocker issue (which also has other benefits). Very few, if any, cars are perfect, so making basic mods, repairs, and adjustments are very valid ways to keep older cars competitive. I saw Ralph Firman slotting holes and welding washers on brand new Van Deimen rockers before putting them on Paul Tracy's works Van Deimen in the 80s.

[Lotus7]

I saw Ralph Firman slotting holes and welding washers on brand new Van Deimen rockers before putting them on Paul Tracy's works Van Deimen in the 80s.

We actually bought a VD factory race team RF86 in 1987 directly from Firman.
Was a total P.O.S. with regards to symmetry, and everything on that car was tweaked, twisted, ovalled, or augured out

[HayesCages]

This was my first thought as well. Did the car come with alignment bars?

In the sale photos, it does look like some sort of key was shoved in those holes.

Are the holes threaded? Look like thumb screws sticking out.

[rickb99]

i'm guessing in a previous life they were alignment pins for a better front crush box. I liked to run an aluminum crush box fabed to carry the wing pole. There may be a picture out on averill's site.....

agree

[xmazdatracy]

now here is someone else with the full length defuser.

Is this too much? mine is the same, but much more cobbled together. I have carbon middle pieces and then just some thin gauge aluminum from that pennon piece all the way up to the front of the pods.

Should I trim down the carbon pieces, or sell them and make my own aluminum pieces to mate up the car behind the pods like so many other reynards?? Or should I put a break on the long aluminum pieces I have now and make them work?

Oh, and it looks like westroc ran just the two carbon middle pieces sticking out. any benefit to going that route?

[Westroc]

This is our old car. Before you get too excited please note that car won CEN DIV twice and when we had it everything that was on that car was there because it worked. Any info you need e-mail westrocmotorsport@hotmail.ca. The pins were custom for the alignment bars.I already wrote you but you didn't reply- yet.

[kea]

Should I trim down the carbon pieces, or sell them and make my own aluminum pieces to mate up the car behind the pods like so many other reynards??

Oh, and it looks like westroc ran just the two carbon middle pieces sticking out. any benefit to going that route?

I'm pretty sure "carbon" is not legal in this class.

[OneWayOut]

I'm pretty sure "carbon" is not legal in this class.

Yep. If it's SCCA, the only thing carbon allowed is interior panels, air ducts, mirrors, and intrusion panels.

Bodywork shall be of aluminum or glass fiber construction and may incorporate honeycomb, wood, or foam coring for purposes of maintaining its shape under aero loading. Kevlar reinforcement is permitted.
The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted.

Looks like Westroc has some explaining to do!

[xmazdatracy]

MCSCC 201
5 GCR Rev. B
Formula A and C
Page
113
Formula Categories
Formula A and C
1.
General
1.1
A single seat, four open-wheeled racing car with firewall, floor, and safety equipment conforming to the requirements under
Automobiles
– General Regulations.
1.2
Cars must be equipped with on-board self starter controlled by the driver in normal driving position.
1.3
The driver’s seat must be capable of being entered without the removal or manipulation of any part or panel.
1.4
Cars shall be equipped with a dual braking system operated by a single control. In case of failure or leak at any point in
system, effective braking power shall be maintained on at least two wheels.
1.5
Power may not be applied to more than two wheels.
1.6
The following aerodynamic restrictions will apply: Coachwork: All external parts of the car which are in the air stream and
situated above a plane passing through the center of the wheel hubs, with the exception of units definitely associated with t
he
func
tioning of the engine, transmission or roll bar.
1.6.1
No part of the coachwork, with the exception of the safety roll bar/roll cage and the engine air box, shall exceed in
height a horizontal plane, 90cm, (35.4”) above the lowest point of the entirely sprung structure of the car.
1.6.2
Behind t front wheels, the coachwork shall not exceed a maximum width of 130cm, (51.18”) with the exception of
lateral fuel tanks which cannot protrude beyond a vertical plane passing through the centerline of the tires. The
maximum w
idth of any aerodynamic device situated behind the front wheels, including the rear wing shall not exceed
110cm (43.307”).
1.6.3
The coachwork ahead of the front wheels may be extended to an overall maximum width of 150cm, (59.055”)
provided it does not extend beyond the outside of the front tires.
1.6.4
Any part of the coachwork ahead of the front wheels exceeding an overall width of 110cm, (43.307”) shall not extend
above the height of the front wheel rims.
1.6.5
Any specific part of the car which has an aerodynamic influence on the stability of the vehicle must be mounted on
the entirely spring part of the car and shall be firmly fixed while the car is in motion. Aerodynamic devices, including
wings and plates may not extend to the rear more than one meter (39.4”) from the
center line of the rear wheels. No
aerodynamic devices (e.g., skirts, body slides, etc.) may extend below the lower surface anywhere on the car to the
rear of the front wheels.
1.6.6
Neither the safety roll bar nor any of the units associated with the functioni
ng of the engine or transmission shall have
an aerodynamic effect by creating a vertical thrust.
1.6.7
The leading edge of any airfoil fixed to the front of the car shall not be sharp (minimum radius: .6inch).
1.7
Class designation letter shall be an F followed by t
he class letter, on both sides of the car.
1.8
Supercharged or turbocharged cars shall be classified according to their displacement times a factor of 1.4
1.9
Filler cap must be recessed into bodywork.
1.10
Shock absorbers and body material are free.

Formula C
Formula C is a class that combines automobiles conforming to the former Formula “C”, the air
-cooled super
-V and the Formula 2000
classes. In order to qualify as a Formula C, automobiles must fully comply with one of the following sets of class rules.
Formula “C” single seat, open wheel racing cars conforming to the basic Formula A and C chassis and coachwork regulations, ex
cept
as modified here.
1.
Engines
– Displacement
1.1
Unrestricted racing engines and rotary piston engines based on the Wank
el patents –
displacement shall not exceed 1100cc.
Note: The Wank
el equivalency is equal to a valve of twice (2X) the difference between the maximum and
minimum volumes of
the two working chambers.
1.2
Production based, two valves per cylinder push rod overhead valve, “F” head or side valve engines –
displacement shall not
exceed 1300cc.
2.
Minimum Weight
The minimum weight of the automobile as qualified or raced
with driver shall be:
Two (2) stroke cycle engines 1180 lbs.
Four (4) stroke cycle engines 930 lbs.
3.
Fuel Tank Capacity
Fuel tank capacity shall not exceed 16 gallons (U.S.).



The club I will be running with is extremely easy going. So carbon is acceptable, but also makes this car very un-competitive. I really dont care about winning every race. However most of the FC's that run with us cant finish a race. Also FST is growing and FC is dying. So maybe if I make this thing great again. I can be like Pepé Le Pew and win the overall points champion.

[xmazdatracy]

This is westroc's old car.


Anyway thanks for letting me know about the pins. I will remove them tonight. I will have to get my own alignment kit as I used strings and wheels that stuck out farther than the tires on my last car.

[rickb99]

...... So carbon is acceptable, but also makes this car very un-competitive......

How does using carbon fiber make the car non-competitive??

...... However most of the FC's that run with us cant finish a race. .

Can't finish a race? Why not? Poor prep? Races too long?

[problemchild]

Perhaps composite would be a less inflammatory description than carbon, and more accurate. Many composite components can be made that are very similar to carbon but legal by definition and I expect that is the case here. I would go with that premise and move on ....

That car appears to have all the tricks and developments that the last highly developed versions had when they were being run professionally in their prime. As a conservative experienced old-timer, I would be focused on maintenance, and learning the operational nuances of the car. After you run it for a few races, or a season, you can evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of your program, including driver and car.

From what I see, you already have the best aero and body pieces on the car.

[CGOffroad]

I agree with ProblemChild. I bought a DB-3 about a year ago after I had been running a DB-1 for 2 or 3 seasons. As soon as I got the car I had grand plans of renewing things in a similar manner to what I had done on the DB-1. A local race preper suggested that I should get the car on track and THEN figure out what needed to be sorted out. That is what I have done and it has caused the development of this car to go in different direction than I expected.

If you don't have a ton of experience in open wheel cars... you ARE gonna go off track a few times! No sense spending hours making her beautiful for that to happen.

The best mods or improvements that can be done to just about any car are what your hands, feet and eyes do while driving the car. Money spent changing something on the car may or may not do much for your lap times. Money spent in any manner to get experience with your butt in the seat will yield results!

[Westroc]

You don't know the difference between carbon and fiber/Kevlar. You don't want to e-mail that's fine too except you will find our community pretty intolerant to those who think they know more than they do. I tried. Good luck and sianarra. Diffuser is direct from Pennon! Was one of the best damn parts we ever put on the car guys. Box stock diffuser. Hell we got pulled into tech after qualifying for 2 years especially at M/O ask anybody in the GLC. Anybody!
Just can't help some people.

[HayesCages]

It's easy to mistake black-dyed fiberglass resin for carbonfiber.

[xmazdatracy]

You don't know the difference between carbon and fiber/Kevlar. You don't want to e-mail that's fine too except you will find our community pretty intolerant to those who think they know more than they do. I tried. Good luck and sianarra. Diffuser is direct from Pennon! Was one of the best damn parts we ever put on the car guys. Box stock diffuser. Hell we got pulled into tech after qualifying for 2 years especially at M/O ask anybody in the GLC. Anybody!
Just can't help some people.

The funny thing is you are helping me, lol! And at the same time wile posting here and not in a PM or email your helping anyone else out there looking for this type of info, or heck the person who will be buying the car after me. But if you want to keep that stuff a secret thats cool. I would understand and bid you fair well.

I guess I will put the composit pieces (yep can't tell the difference) on the shelf for now, and keep them safe. I would say the most reason the car is not competitive would be me the driver. So no matter the go fast parts I have on the car it's got a dud behind the wheel. I'll save the good stuff for the next guy or if I ever become a race car driver. Till then I'm just playing with this great toy I got.

[xmazdatracy]

How does using carbon fiber make the car non-competitive??





Can't finish a race? Why not? Poor prep? Races too long?

Wait... it's not the composit pieces it makes it non competitive. I would assume it's the very low weight limit, the the pinto vs the modern motor, and the fact there is no cfc just fc. And to why they don't finish I would not know. I was out of the formula loop. I was just too busy getting yelled at by arive and drive miatas telling me I was in their way.

[Westroc]

Well I tried a private pm and you didn't see fit to reply so I made a second response on Apex. Still nothing. I made the effort you did not. Hell we only did 6 /90 Reynards !
I'm done.

[xmazdatracy]

Which brings up a good point. Being that these cars are so modular is there any real way to check for a serial number? I see some other Reynard's have a Reynard placard on the firewall, but this car does not. it has a canadian automobile sports clubs with 01-001 scratched onto it. Is this car just too old to expect to have that? Or is it stamped on the frame somewhere, and if so would/could I get a Reynard placard made? It would be neat, but no big deal.

[xmazdatracy]

I couldn't tell you what those posts are as I've not seen those on the front of a Reynard before. I don't see them needing any usage. I took a look at this car before you and have a bunch of notes on what work was required, so if you have any questions I can help out some. In the box of spares there was a small X-brace which is the droop limiter for the front suspension and goes right where the damper canisters are currently mounted. Be sure to install that.

If you would not mind sharing the notes that would be very much appreciated!


If you look on the right side (drivers left) the sway bar connector is facing out and is rubbing the nose. should I have the nose accommodate this or can I turn it around like the other side. I think for the mean time I am going to leave the setup as is (except for the gear selection to accommodate for Blackhawk), but will be using the old nose (its in much better shape). I want to ask because I am sending that nose to Averill to have the wings installed.

[rickb99]

.....Droop (in my experience) was always set to be very close to ride height with driver and fuel. In other words... basically zero droop....

That's what we did on our two. Zero droop with driver in car. BUT, I notice the droop limiter is missing on Tracy's car. Hopefully he can find it or Keith can make a new one.

[Purple Frog]

Grasshopper, I'm going to overlook youthful exuberance.

The Sunday Sermon for this week: As you are counting to 10 before you post, remember there are folks on this site that have been prepping and racing Reynards maybe longer than you have been out of the womb. They want to help. They want you to possibly skip over all the mistakes they made. They want you to be successful.

OK, on to more aid...

If i were you i would get some 6' long 1" square tubing and fashion it tobe able to use those beautiful pins on the front of that cross arm. You'll find your strings will then be very close to the centerline of the axles when you are doing set ups. I had another 1" square tube that i mounted to the rear wing mounts that also crossed at axle height. When you have setup bars that attach to the car, you can use them in emergencies on pit lane or in the paddock if you don't have a scale pad, and you have 20 minutes to change out a A arm.

Study the mounts of the lower links as they connect to the front ARB. You might see how you can flip/rotate/whatever to eliminate rubbing the inside of the nose.

Super Reynards coming out of Averill's shop many times had multiple ARBs of different diameters. Each different ARB has its own set of mounting blocks. Make sure you are using the correct mounting blocks for each given ARB.

In the late 80s, Reynards didn't come across the big lake with diffusers. So we all came up with unique ways to mount modern profile diffusers on old cars. Many times we used diffusers designed for different chassis designs. This created a need to fashion "transition" pieces. See attached photo for one such adaptation. Since I worked at pro F2000 events, almost every weekend I could pull at least one "used" modern diffuser out of the dumpster on Sunday afternoon. So i set my car up to use VD parts. YMMV