SVRA has a problem!

[Dee]

What has happened to the 13 month rule ?
Coronado this weekend. Many crashes, fights, wheel banging, I was hit twice in Two races and almost killed. these fruit loops need to be kick out !!!!!!!!!!
or I Quit!!!!!!!!

[marshall9]

What has happened to the 13 month rule ?

or I Quit!!!!!!!!

Full fields. It's no longer a parade, it's racing. That's the way it is. We can't have both, parade track time and racing. I spent north of 20 K in preparation for COTA. Worked through the usual week long car/setup issues and qualified 5th in Club Ford. Raced my arse off, had 2nd. Got hit on the last corner of the last lap by a guy from KY in a Lola T242 (You know who you are). By the time we gathered up our cars and got to the line, I was 5th and he was 6th. Bush league move. Cost both of us podiums. I followed the rule book and reported to the Steward afterward and was told that they had at least five cameras on the incident( It WAS COTA after all), but no sanctions for either of us. Fair enough.

Careful what you ask for......it is actual racing now, and I am okay with it. My time and budget may not be okay with it, that's up to me.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

SVRA is now a racing organization, not a place to drive your million dollar Ferrari around, going home butt hurt if someone throws a rock on it in a corner. I am not advocating this, Dee, but it is what it is.

I am not condoning stupidity, but if you want clean parades, and 13 month suspensions, you may want to consider the Monterrey Historics or something.


M.

[Tigaman]

Speaking on my own, I think there can be a happy medium.

I can race folks like Mike Agnifilo with wheels interlocked and not worry about it. You CAN race hard but clean and fair.

I've been to 450-500+ car entry events for the last six years at Monterey (skipped this one) and I see a fair bit of damage. No organization or race is immune...

However, having written about and taught the 13/13 rule for over twenty years as a tool to encourage the ultimate in personal responsibility, it pains me to see at-fault incidents not called or not punished.

This is true at SCCA Club Racing, historic racing and entry level pro racing.

I am racing with SVRA this weekend at VIR. I'm going to encourage the Competition Director to call contact incidents MUCH tighter than the last few events, for sure. For my safety, and for that of my friends...

[Tigaman]

What has happened to the 13 month rule ?
Coronado this weekend. Many crashes, fights, wheel banging, I was hit twice in Two races and almost killed. these fruit loops need to be kick out !!!!!!!!!!
or I Quit!!!!!!!!

I don't blame you. Go to the top. You'll find a sympathetic ear. And one that is not afraid to change things.

[marshall9]

Peter, if I had taken your orientation course, I would have qualified pole and won. Mr. Daniels from NM has never been within several seconds of me on my home track, but from being in your group , was ready Q1.

I encourage anyone that is racing for the first time with SVRA, at a new to them track to take Peter's orientation class. It will serve you well.

[Tigaman]

Peter, if I had taken your orientation course, I would have qualified pole and won. Mr. Daniels from NM has never been within several seconds of me on my home track, but from being in your group , was ready Q1.

I encourage anyone that is racing for the first time with SVRA, at a new to them track to take Peter's orientation class. It will serve you well.

Thank you for your kind words!

[Ralph Z.]

What has happened to the 13 month rule ?
Coronado this weekend. Many crashes, fights, wheel banging, I was hit twice in Two races and almost killed. these fruit loops need to be kick out !!!!!!!!!!
or I Quit!!!!!!!!

Excuse my ignorance, but, what is the "13 month rule"?

[teamwisconsin]

Ralph-
The 13/13 rule refers to if you are found at fault of an accident, you are suspended for 13 months, and on probation for another 13. I believe Steve Earle came up with the concept back in the early days of vintage racing. While it is an excellent idea for keeping everyone safe and bringing their rolling investments home, it has also given people the misconception that vintage racing somehow isn't "real" racing. This is of course total BS and people like Mr. Krause, Dan Marvin, Derek Hill, and so on prove the fact that vintage racing is just as serious as any clubbie event. On a personal level, I think I'm prouder of the premier vintage races I've won than any SCCA "majors" trophy I have on the shelf.

Dave, regarding your experience at Coronado, I would offer up that in my now 15 years of attending vintage races on the west coast, Coronado has always been the destruction derby. Between the lack of penalty for running off track, cones getting kicked up taking out bodywork and windshields, landing lights, and of course, tight confines meaning body contact, I usually try to politely suggest to our clients to avoid that race and run with CSRG at Sonoma the weekend after. Sorry you had such a bummer of a time.

[Tigaman]

Excuse my ignorance, but, what is the "13 month rule"?

The "13/13 rule" was originated by Dewey Dellinger over twenty-five years ago to help codify and provide an incentive for vintage and historic racers to THINK about what they were doing on-track, encourage a margin and to discourage contact. It's gone through many, many iterations since that time, but it started like this...

"If a driver is involved in a contact incident, and that driver is found to be at fault by the organizer, they will be excused from that event, not permitted to enter the next event, and placed on probation for 13 months. If that driver is involved in ANOTHER event, while on probation, the competition privileges of that driver will be suspended for 13 months."

Hence 13 (months probation)/13 (months suspension, if you do it again).

The most famous application of this rule was when Steve Earle suspended Sir Stirling Moss after making a bonehead move in a borrowed Aston Martin DBR1 into T2 at MRLS, taking out a few other cars! The purpose of the 13 months was to make sure people understood that they would NOT be permitted entry at prestigious events the next year, hence given a LOT of time to think about how to drive with enough of a margin to avoid contact.

Most historic racing organizations (as well as Porsche Club of America Club Racing, BMWCCA Club Racing and even some chapters of NASA), have some highly diluted mechanism still called the "13/13 Rule" in place.

In the late 1990's and early 2000's, SVRA actually had rotating Driver Committees headed by the Competition Director. This allowed a little more balance in the procedure, but then, in an effort to make the rule more "practical" and seemingly less draconian, a "points" system was instituted, much like drivers license points accumulated for violations on public roads.

Some organizations, like VRG on the East Coast, are extremely strict and rarely does a contact incident occur without consequences to that driver.

A central database for incidents that are reported by the organizers is maintained by the Vintage Motorsport Council (VMC), ostensibly so that organizations are furnished a list of those drivers on probation/suspension, but rarely is there reciprocity between clubs, so it's more informational than a threat to some competitor's ability to compete.

I believe the 13/13 rule works, when properly and swiftly administrated, but that is not common these days...

[Tigaman]

Ralph-
On a personal level, I think I'm prouder of the premier vintage races I've won than any SCCA "majors" trophy I have on the shelf.

Hahaha! And you should be!

I've had the great pleasure to be the "meat" in a three-wide Production Car sandwich going into the Keyhole AND the Carousel at Mid-Ohio, multiple times, between two National Championship drivers with a collective total of TWELVE RunOffs titles between them (at a time when that meant, IMO, more). As Ethan says, you can race as hard as you want, a car width plus six inches is what I give those that I trust, as long as you don't touch. And good drivers CAN do that...

[Dee]

I come from air racing the 70's Reno, Mojave P 51 425 MPH. years Later and preasent I co drive with john Morton, I am older and want to have fun , you can race hard but give when you can see trouble is about to happen , I learned this in air racing "don't give and you may die "

I think we need a 13 month rule, and you can wave the rule with a 1000.00 fine
do it again 26 month sit down or 2000.00 fine third time , find a new sport.

[Tigaman]

you can race hard but give when you can see trouble is about to happen

Agreed! Absolutely!

And THIS is the point of ANY hard, spirited and clean racing.

So many folks have a grasp that does NOT EQUAL their reach.

They lunge, they "think" when they have no idea.

"I thought he saw me..."

"I thought it was my corner..."

"I thought I could out brake him (or her)..."

Racing is a smart person's game. It's not what is shown on TV...

[Lotus7]

I think we need a 13 month rule, and you can wave the rule with a 1000.00 fine
do it again 26 month sit down or 2000.00 fine third time , find a new sport.

I work the crew side, so I'm the "fixer-upper", not the direct victim, but have to point out just how trivial a $1,000 fine would be to the majority of vintage drivers .... make it large 5 digits and maybe you'll see some effect.
In the end, a more heavily draconian sit-the-next-13-months-out is perhaps the answer.
And if that guy gets p*ssed and doesn't return, well ...

[Tigaman]

In the end, a more heavily draconian sit-the-next-13-months-out is perhaps the answer.

And if that guy gets p*ssed and doesn't return, well ...

^^This^^

Worked for many years...

[Daryl DeArman]

In the end, a more heavily draconian sit-the-next-13-months-out is perhaps the answer. And if that guy gets p*ssed and doesn't return, well ...

...or the screwball sicks his attorney on the vintage organization....

Peer pressure. When the racing is no longer fun, he/she'll leave.

[Peter Olivola]

Entering an event includes agreement to abide by the rules of the sanctioning body. This threat has been tried and rejected.

...or the screwball sicks his attorney on the vintage organization....

Peer pressure. When the racing is no longer fun, he/she'll leave.

[Daryl DeArman]

Entering an event includes agreement to abide by the rules of the sanctioning body. This threat has been tried and rejected.

Yeah, and everybody always abides by said rules. Then the exposure stems from selective enforcement.

It's also been tried, and unfortunately, succeeded. Shun the guy. He'll eventually sell his stuff and go back to entering horses in the Derby.

[Dee]

If the group ( SVRA) does not lay down hard and fast rules, they will be open to injury law suites under "known or should have known that some of the drivers are prone to over drive their cars and or their ability" this comes from 38 yrs in the court room, this problem will happen if something isn't done !

[Tigaman]

Not every vintage and historic racer is Mr. Moneybags...

The open trailer crowd (well, 20' steel enclosed for me) is alive and well. Some even go to the big "marquee" events. I've seen some (but very few) at Monterey in August over the last few years.

The fault in vintage and historic racing (increasingly in Club Racing and definitely in Pro Racing) is that CLEAR, EXPLICIT and UNEQUIVOCAL expectations are not being laid out to the drivers. Then, even if they are, there's no (or very little) follow up. No meetings, no RFA's, no black flags or DQ's, just business as usual.

"Commercial interests," or the desire to make sure entry numbers stay high, are present in for-profit and volunteer organizations alike. No difference, as far as I can see. So there's reticence on the part of the organizers to be "Debbie Downer" and park people.

Little by little, the culture that draws people to various venues changes, get's watered down. PCA Club Racing was more draconian than Steve Earle, for a LONG time. Now? They have an unspoken "rub out" exception for "just racing" incidents. I've seen more incidents at large PCA Club Races than in any historic race... Somehow, the message is not getting across.

It's a slippery slope. I've seen drivers taken out by others that went on to win National Championships at Mid-Ohio and at Topeka, both at the beginning (first corner, first lap) and at the end (last corner, last lap) of the race. What did the Stewards do? Held some interviews, everyone left the track and no action taken.

Big vintage and historic weekends are BUSY, BUSY for the light staff of these for-profit groups. Less so in volunteer groups like PCA Club Racing, VSCDA, VDCA, CSRG, SOVREN and VRG, to name a few, where a committee charged JUST with investigating contact incidents and ruling on them is more easily assembled.

So, without protocols and policies in place, and run by competition directors that want people to like them more than sit people down who have made a mistake, it's a combination that makes a frustrating brew for those intent (and successful) in following the no-contact rules...

Me? I remember pounding my fist on the table twenty-five years ago at a Road Atlanta SVRA event that I was Group 1 representative for (and racing in), demanding the competition director call contact harshly... Three hours later, I was excused from the event for sticking my nose in at Turn 3 and not being able to get out of the way fast enough. Live by the sword... I drove more carefully over the next thirteen months!

[Tigaman]

If the group ( SVRA) does not lay down hard and fast rules, they will be open to injury law suites under "known or should have known that some of the drivers are prone to over drive their cars and or their ability" this comes from 38 yrs in the court room, this problem will happen if something isn't done !

I agree with your original posting, but I don't think the above is true.

First off, there are dozens, no, hundreds of groups running club races, smaller and larger series all over the country.

There's such a thing drivers and participants sign at registration called "an assumption of risk and waiver" that protects YOU, if you make a mistake on track.

I don't know any crystal ball that allows organizers to know who is "prone to over drive their cars or their ability," especially in a legally supportable way.

There are drivers who exhibit "a pattern of behavior," however. The organizers have access to those VMC lists that, if people reported in a consistent way (which means they need to attribute responsibility the same way), would go a long way to identifying those "bad apples."

[troyt]

Dee, please let us know about Tony's response to your concerns. I, for one, would be most interested in what he has to say about unpenalized contact at his events. I'm sure by now you've taken your concerns to the top and not just on this forum...
VARA's Stewards do a great job policing contact, and have sat many a guilty driver down. I was guilty once and was "sent home" for the rest of the wknd. Even though I was "hit from the front", it was ME who was unable to safely and COMPLETELY finish the pass. Not just be past his door, not just past his front bumper, but be completely in front of his car by turn-in. I manned up, made some mental notes, and sat on the sidelines for a day and a half.
Now there are some drivers who you can go side-by-side with through the corners, there are some who will give you the corner if you're just a nose past them, and some you gotta stay clear of, but in Vintage we must all agree, it is the Passers Responsibility at all times.

[Tigaman]

I'm sure by now you've taken your concerns to the top and not just on this forum...

I sent Dee Tony's cell number (public) and email address.

[fitfan]

i don't know what what happened at coronado, i didn't run this year, initially i was boycotting them for the abuse i took from from the stewards last year.... but regardless, a recent infliction of a lifetimes worth of injuries (13 bone fractures, collapsed lung, bla bla bla!) have sidelined me for a quite a number of months now. anyways...

even with a 13/13 rule on the books - it still comes down to track marshaling and event stewardship. there is ZERO assurance a driver at fault would get the 13/13, and similarly no telling if a innocent bystander wouldn't get the penalty. (based on some of the 'new' svra experiences i have had - they will get it wrong 50% of the time, and another portion of the time they probably did something themselves to cause the confusion in the first place....

so - while the rule, like any law - is a fine in paradise and unicorn land. once you get politics, good ole boy networks, and money exchanging hands before the event ever got started... i wouldn't count to heavily on it being "fair". just my .2cents worth. you might be the one to get the penalty - so bear that in mind.

what happened?

[DanW]

I was at Coronado last weekend as a first timer and really enjoyed the event overall in the FF/FB group. I struggled with the racing line (or lack of it) and my lack of talent in an unfamiliar place. Much thanks to Todd for the coaching on the line from video.

Saturday morning in the AM qualifier, I spun near the end of the session, did not go off track. I missed a black flag and was called to the Chief driving instructor. I apologized, said it would not happen again.

Saturday afternoon's qualifying race I brushed the nose of my car with the right rear tire of another driver who was having trouble finding a gear. The nose was knocked askew and I pulled off. Completely my fault. It's my responsibility to make a safe pass. I reported to the CDI with my video. We reviewed the video and calmly discussed the incident in detail.

He advised me to conduct myself in a most sportsmanlike manner from now on. I thought I might be on probation or put on the trailer (Maybe I'm on Double Secret Probation.)

We had a clean race in the morning on Sunday, despite a damp track and fog. The afternoon Feature, not so much. First lap incident took out three cars. Somehow a beautiful Brabham BT21 escaped damage, but it was a close call when a FF launched itself over his right front wheel. Glad no one scratched his roll bar.

Everyone played so well at Sears Point. It was good, clean racing all the way up the grid. I know when the visors go down, we are racing.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we are better than this.

Regards,
Dan

[Tigaman]

I was at Coronado last weekend as a first timer and really enjoyed the event overall in the FF/FB group. I struggled with the racing line (or lack of it) and my lack of talent in an unfamiliar place. Much thanks to Todd for the coaching on the line from video.

Saturday morning in the AM qualifier, I spun near the end of the session, did not go off track. I missed a black flag and was called to the Chief driving instructor. I apologized, said it would not happen again.

Saturday afternoon's qualifying race I brushed the nose of my car with the right rear tire of another driver who was having trouble finding a gear. The nose was knocked askew and I pulled off. Completely my fault. It's my responsibility to make a safe pass. I reported to the CDI with my video. We reviewed the video and calmly discussed the incident in detail.

He advised me to conduct myself in a most sportsmanlike manner from now on. I thought I might be on probation or put on the trailer (Maybe I'm on Double Secret Probation.)

We had a clean race in the morning on Sunday, despite a damp track and fog. The afternoon Feature, not so much. First lap incident took out three cars. Somehow a beautiful Brabham BT21 escaped damage, but it was a close call when a FF launched itself over his right front wheel. Glad no one scratched his roll bar.

Everyone played so well at Sears Point. It was good, clean racing all the way up the grid. I know when the visors go down, we are racing.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we are better than this.

Regards,
Dan

Great post.

[s800racer]

Full fields. It's no longer a parade, it's racing. That's the way it is. We can't have both, parade track time and racing. I spent north of 20 K in preparation for COTA. Worked through the usual week long car/setup issues and qualified 5th in Club Ford. Raced my arse off, had 2nd. Got hit on the last corner of the last lap by a guy from KY in a Lola T242 (You know who you are). By the time we gathered up our cars and got to the line, I was 5th and he was 6th. Bush league move. Cost both of us podiums. I followed the rule book and reported to the Steward afterward and was told that they had at least five cameras on the incident( It WAS COTA after all), but no sanctions for either of us. Fair enough.

Careful what you ask for......it is actual racing now, and I am okay with it. My time and budget may not be okay with it, that's up to me.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

I am not condoning stupidity, but if you want clean parades, and 13 month suspensions, you may want to consider the Monterrey Historics or something.

M.

It's not like that everywhere. As Peter said there can be a middle ground. Most of the large FF events on the East coast have a group of anywhere from four to eight cars that might run at the front of the field. The racing has been close, clean and very competitive. This includes SVRA's Gold Cup event.

[Tigaman]

I manned up, made some mental notes, and sat on the sidelines for a day and a half.

Now there are some drivers who you can go side-by-side with through the corners, there are some who will give you the corner if you're just a nose past them, and some you gotta stay clear of, but in Vintage we must all agree, it is the Passers Responsibility at all times.

Agree completely. There is no accident unless someone is trying to pass. Only one can see both cars...

[Daryl DeArman]

so - while the rule, like any law - is a fine in paradise and unicorn land. once you get politics, good ole boy networks, and money exchanging hands before the event ever got started... i wouldn't count to heavily on it being "fair".

Yep. Ignorance is bliss. Once you are privy to the minutes of some of these disciplinary action hearings/appeals you understand how these things work in the real world....

[pacratt]

At VSCDA Drivers' Schools we try to promote an idea that both the overtaker AND the overtaken are responsible for clean racing through a simple notion that, if you are attempting to pass but don't quite manage to get even wheel-to-wheel, then back off & try again at the next corner...if you ARE even wheel-to-wheel, let the passer complete the pass and tuck in behind...LIVE TO RACE ANOTHER DAY (at the next corner).

We've experienced a rapid growth in our Formula Vee group at VSCDA.
And with that has come some growing pains...in particular, an increase in minor incidents due to a busier-more crowded track.
The VVV Group (VSCDA Vintage Vees) is addressing the idea of a mentorship program for veterans to help & guide novices navigate their learning curve.
I believe this will also get us vets rethinking some our own driving at times.

The key here is that we ALL need to see vintage racing as REAL racing but approach it with a "vintage spirit".
I can't word it any better than the VMC Mission Statement:
"The primary objective of the sport of vintage and historic automobile racing and the VMC is to promote the preservation of these great old cars in a racing format which emphasizes the fun factor, camaraderie, driver safety and etiquette. The sport is intended to provide a format for friendly wheel-to-wheel competition with vehicles faithfully prepared to their era.
All racing is dangerous and only the proper attitude of the driver and the careful preparation of the cars will diminish the danger and will enhance our appreciation of this sport."

Am I dreaming? Maybe. But it's my hope that all of this will grow, group-by-group, then organization-to-organization until sanity is the majority.
Glenn

[Robins Ken]

I had the misfortune to drive in Toronto last SUNDAY morning on the 401.

Traffic was heavy and the lack of respect by many for other motorists was disgraceful.

Speeding (30% + over), not leaving space, not signalling and a general Mimi attitude to ongoing, changing, potentially dangerous, situations was shocking.

My point is some of this attitude is being brought to the track.

KR.

[Tigaman]

At VSCDA Drivers' Schools we try to promote an idea that both the overtaker AND the overtaken are responsible for clean racing through a simple notion that, if you are attempting to pass but don't quite manage to get even wheel-to-wheel, then back off & try again at the next corner...

Am I dreaming? Maybe. But it's my hope that all of this will grow, group-by-group, then organization-to-organization until sanity is the majority.
Glenn

VSCDA has a long tradition of excellent Drivers Schools. People are well prepared by the wonderful job the volunteers at VSCDA do.

The idea of "shared responsibility" has been prevalent in professional sports car racing for decades. I prefer primary responsibility on the overtaking driver simply because it's easier and simpler for folks to easily adopt.

The bottom line is "to allow racing room."

Unfortunately, I have seen a degradation in both on-track behavior and ALL sanctioning body's willingness to be firm but fair and consistent in handing out penalties. This is universal among groups.

When Barb Neverol (who I consider one of the best drivers and club disciplinarians out there) publicly fusses about some driver behavior this past VSCDA weekend, you know there are some clueless folks out there!

We can hope, but without a change, I'm not optimistic.

I had the misfortune to drive in Toronto last SUNDAY morning on the 401.

Traffic was heavy and the lack of respect by many for other motorists was disgraceful.

My point is some of this attitude is being brought to the track.

KR.

^^THIS^^

[fitfan]

Agree completely. There is no accident unless someone is trying to pass. Only one can see both cars...

that is not always true. a driver - that got suspended (for 1 event and then probation), because he got hit by the driver behind him, when he spun from in front (of the trailing driver). no pass, just running, he spun, driver behind had no where / time to go. (this was not an SVRA event fyi). a lot of debate about suspending the driver that spun... and there would have been little logic to suspending the driver on his tail. the reality is, it was, shall we say - "a racing incident" plenty of accidents without an attempted pass.....

heck I've spun in the same type circumstances when the dog ring stopped letting me get second gear into a corner..... car go off track from the the front, and get punched from behind "all the time".

i do agree that passing should be "mostly" the judgment of the passing car - but that doesn't exempt the car getting passed from causing an accident either. difficult to judge when our races aren't covered by a dozen live video and data streams

[Tigaman]

Well, I do understand that "$#!t happens," for sure! BTDT.

It's interesting, this notion of "fault."

I came into historic racing after starting in SCCA Club Racing nearly thirty years ago. At an early VSCCA event at Lime Rock, the Drivers Committee chair Don Nattrass, excused a driver who spun in the Left Hander and NOT the person behind that collected the spinner.

I asked Don why not assess fault on the driver that was behind and collected the spinner for not leaving enough margin to have an escape route, if at all?

He responded (as did Charlie Gibson later on when he was Competition Director at SVRA in the mid-'90's, IIRC) that the spinner was to blame, because of overdriving that led to the spin.

I think the pendulum has swung back towards the "car behind" as the at-fault driver, simply because they can see more of the situation developing.

It's really tough to assess fault, no matter how many cameras, videos or pictures are introduced as "evidence." For more than twenty years, I've taken part in Drivers Committee meetings, and it's never fun...

[stonebridge20]

We don't need no stinkin lawyers !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDDcmz8VMew

[Tigaman]

We don't need no stinkin lawyers !

Simpler times...

[Peter Olivola]

Is there a protest process in vintage?

[Tigaman]

Is there a protest process in vintage?

No, not like Club Racing.

[troyt]

Every Vintage club has their own rules to enforce, including protests and penalties. But the general answer is "Yes, kinda..." But not a nationally recognized format like SCCA.

[Tigaman]

Every Vintage club has their own rules to enforce, including protests and penalties. But the general answer is "Yes, kinda..." But not a nationally recognized format like SCCA.

Hmm.

Not aware of any formal protest mechanism for vintage clubs at all.

That would be where there is a formal, written petition by a competitor stating that another competitor is in violation of Rule X, paragraph X, subsection X, as there is in SCCA.

In SCCA, this extends to mechanical and technical infractions from one competitor against another, or by an official of the event (often known as a "RFA" or Request for Action.

Mechanical protests are generally accompanied by a "teardown bond" sutiable for reassembly costs IF the car is found to be compliant.

The SCCA has a group of Stewards who meet and deliberate, then rule on these protests.

The vintage groups I am familiar with (29 at last count), have NO mechanism to do this.

They often have only one or two people, or a small group of volunteers, that either make a decision on the spot or recommend to the ONE steward who DOES make the decision what the outcome should be.

THEN, penalties are assessed.

So, no. No formal protest mechanism exists in vintage as it does in Club Racing (SCCA), to my knowledge.

[Dee]

Guys ,I spoke with Tony. until he started using fowl langange but we sorted it out !
i am done (69 yrs old ) I think he has vintage racing at heart not the $$$$$$$ press on and hold there feet to the fire. OUT