What do you say to a new driver...

[alangbaker]

...who is obviously in a little bit over his head?

I got punted on Sunday by a driver in his first weekend in a new car, and I wasn't the only one. This new driver has imported a Formula Ford Ecoboost from Europe to run with our club. Why he chose a car that doesn't fit into any class except Formula Libra, I don't know; we tried to suggest he get a Formula Ford or a Formula Continental, but he just had to have the Ecoboost.

And on his first day (Saturday), he tangled with someone and broke his (carbon fiber!) front wing, and then chose to run the car without wings on the next day, and hit me.

Fortunately, the damage to my car was minor--just a slightly bent steering arm on my front upright for which I could compensate by lengthening the tie rod.

But I don't think I said enough to the young driver who came up to me afterward to apologize for the kamikaze late-braking move that had him locking up after popping out from drafting the FCs on the last lap of a race where he wasn't at all up to speed. He apologized and I really didn't say much. Just told him that "it happens".

Should I have said something? If so, what?

[Steve Demeter]

Respect your fellow racers.

We are doing this for trophies , usually small ones, and it is not worth tearing up your equipment or your fellow racers either.


If you want to run into others get into a door slammer class. LOL

[buddahson]

At least he apologized and it sounds like damage was minor. It's racing and incidents happen, but on the other hand it does sound like this guy could use some advice. Sometimes competitive spirit can get the best of us and we take chances that we shouldn't. I'd probably try to help him understand what he did wrong and simply advise him to slow it down a little and focus on seat time rather than lap records. If the behavior continues take it up with the race or track day organization. Honestly, they should pick up on the problem after two incidents anyway.

Personally, I tend to be a little too conservative especially if I think the person I'm going wheel to wheel with is a relative novice. I'd rather give up a position than get tangled up in someone else's mess. This is coming from motorcycle racing as I don't have my car on the track yet, but I think it applies.

Edit: From the description, I think this was a race rather than a track day. If it's a track day, there are no trophy's so give extra room. If you don't and you cause an incident, you should be sent home.

-Matt

[alangbaker]

This was most definitely a race.

I was in FF, but my car and I just weren't up to speed.

So I was happy to go wide to let the FCs who were still in a battle go through.

But at some point, I do still have to turn in.

[sccadsr31]

I would suggest calling him and explaining that at the time you appreciated the apology and now would like to talk about what happened, how and how to avoid such an incident in the future. Asking some questions about what he was looking at and what strategy he was following and make sure to ask him if he feels you contributed to the incident. By going at it this way you could possible help him and maybe make a real friend. Always nice to have a young friend to help do some heavy lifting for the old guys.
David

[alangbaker]

That sounds like a very good idea...

I've got a natural opening to talk to him again when I've discovered what the repairs will cost. He said he'd help pay for them.

[Robbie.Arthur]

Alan, as you already know I've had a driver climb over my car in an incident somewhat similar to yours, the only difference being in my case it was a battle for position. During my short attempt at finishing the race with a wonky car I had some time to think about how I was going to handle the situation at hand once I got out of the car, much like what you're doing now. I was prepared to let the driver know how I felt about the move if need be, but at the same time I realize everyone's going to misjudge a racing maneuver once or twice and was more than willing to let it slide if the guilty party knew they were in the wrong. When we had our talk I was totally convinced that he knew he messed up big time, and that it wasn't going to happen again. Case Closed. (Aside from the friendly rib jabbing that comes every now and again )

So I suppose my advice to you would be to assess the conversation you had in your case. Were you convinced that the driver in your situation was genuinely sorry for what had happened? Or was he just there apologizing to stop a report to the steward from going through? If that's the case I would suggest talking with him further about it and making sure he/she knows that everyone is entitled to racing room, regardless of how many laps down or slow you may be. If that means checking up a split second sooner in the brake zone to avoid hitting a lapped car then so be it. Like a few folk have already mentioned, we're only racing for a 15$ trophy at the end of the year... Let's keep the corners of our cars attached to our cars

Nice to see you out last weekend Alan, even though I didn't see you on track. Glad the arm's doing better!

[alangbaker]

Thanks, Robbie! It was good to be back...

...even if I was only turning lap times that really should have put me in among the Vees. <sigh>

[TimH]

You've already observed (car purchase) that he doesn't take good advice...

[Offcamber1]

he apologized and offered to pay for the damage (how rare is that?) so I'd call him and let him know how much the parts are going to be and see if he's gotten the message at the next event.

Nick-naming him "Pastor" is always a bit of fun though!

just my $.02

kip

[alangbaker]

My concern is that he might get the message that just paying for the damage makes the situation all right.

I want to let him know that, while I certainly appreciate the willingness to pay for the damage, what matters more is that we all try to make good decisions out there.

[Nardi]

Be glad he apologized, accept NO PAYMENT. You will never be able to force learning upon anyone, so try to have casual conversations and hope he can digest the points you are trying to imply. With luck, you will become a voice of reason and you will create an ally who will share that voice, with another after another. Good luck, club racing needs it.

[phantomjock]

My (twisted thinking):

That he offered to make a payment means he understands his involvement/responsibility. If he pays, then he's an"upright guy."

BUT:

You have the option of taking payment or mentoring (or a bit of both). Sounds like you might be interested in setting his course "right." You could take a token - because aren't we all a bit "at risk" for participating, then; "wax-on/wax-off." If he gets it - we all win. Maybe use some "repair time' ON THE VEHICLE - not just cash, to show how deep the real injury is.

I think the next step might be yours - unless time has intervened, and the opportunity is missed.

I'd hope not.

Cheers - Jim

[alangbaker]

Guys,

This is great feedback, and I'm very grateful.

[RSS]

Some video footage that could help.

Ecoboost vs FF

[alangbaker]

Thanks, Roger.

Even knowing that I turned very wide to leave room, it's good to see just how wide.

And it also explains why it wasn't you going inside me...

...you were staying well out of it...

...or was that Brian?

[RSS]

That was the view from the old mans car. He seemed to catch a lot of bumps spins and incedents over the weekend on his camera.

[Earley Motorsports]

So this guy is a racer (or want to be), why not introduce him Apexspeed and point him to this thread. Maybe when he sees everybody's comments he will get the point of your concerns. It might just set in and make him realize.

[EYERACE]

Try saying something to this effect:

1. I indeed accept your apology and thank you for understanding that to express your remorse is part of racing etiquette. It would be inappropriate though to accept monies for repairs as such is not racing etiquette. Instead consider applying that part of your budget to a racing school session or hiring a coach.

2. Remember on track because your car is in a class with no other competitors it's not really all that important you try to pass anyone ever. Enjoy the fun and thrill of being able to own such a car and have it at speed on a real track instead of just driving a street legal car fast on the public roads........but unless you're in a class with actual competitors, you maybe shouldn't be racing the rest of us. Etiquette argues for giving the others room because they are in a class with actual competitors.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What are the licensing requirements of NWFC ?

I think in SCCA these incidents would send him back to school...

[ccoffin]

What are the licensing requirements of NWFC ?

I think in SCCA these incidents would send him back to school...

He's not a part of NWFC, just to be clear. Just happened to be on track at the same time as some of our cars at our last weekend. Our licensing requirements are those of whichever sanctioning body we are running with at the time (ICSCC, cacc, wcma, and scca, but haven't raced with them in a couple years)

Also, we don't license, just organize people to all show up at the track at the same time. I believe he is licensed through sccbc (cacc), the club that operates events at the track this occured at.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I believe he is licensed through sccbc (cacc), the club that operates events at the track this occured at.

Then he's not really a new driver but it seems whatever sanctioning body he's licensed by need to review the incident.....s

[S_Morton]

Alan,

I am not familiar with how CACC runs their races but was a report of contact turned in by the corner workers and investigated by the Steward or did this get missed and there is no record of it happening?

[alangbaker]

I think it was missed or at least considered too inconsequential to report.

Normally, I would have expected a visit from the steward after the race, but it never came.

The other driver is licensed by the CACC, the FIA-sanctioned governing body for motorsports in western Canada (via ASN Canada). As far as I'm aware, he completed his three races as a novice without incident, but now he's stepped up to something a lot faster than the Formula Vee he raced as a novice.

[Robbie.Arthur]

Last year he rented a vee from us. Supposedly he drove back east in some BFGoodrich formula car series. He said he was pretty good at it, but couldn't get the car he rented from us to turn a faster lap than a 1:24. A good lap in a vee of that calibre is 1:18... As far as I know he only raced that one race in the novice program, and this is the only other time I have seen him at the track. The video is quite eye opening as a car like that with 4 wheel discs should have no problem getting stopped by marker 3.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The other driver is licensed by the CACC, the FIA-sanctioned governing body for motorsports in western Canada (via ASN Canada). As far as I'm aware, he completed his three races as a novice without incident, but now he's stepped up to something a lot faster than the Formula Vee he raced as a novice.

I have 1 weekend to go on my novice permit and quite frankly when checking in for a weekend (in 2 different regions) no one has asked me for my license or permit.
It seems like I could have run the weekend without anyone verifying my qualifications to be there.

I've had to tell them and then find the right person to deal with because I want the sign-offs..... I had to wait an hour in one region for official results for a signoff...

Is it typical that no one asks? Is this a misperception on my part? Would they have stopped me on grid?

My point is I want to follow the rules and do it right - even drive less aggressively during my novice races because an "incident" may prevent me from getting my license.

But does this guy? He bought a car that no one recommended because its faster.
He's already outside the envelope. So would you really be surprised if he isn't properly licensed/experienced?

[alangbaker]

Ah, right!

I'd forgotten the entire circumstance, Robbie.

I wonder what he was like in the other series...

[alangbaker]

I have 1 weekend to go on my novice permit and quite frankly when checking in for a weekend (in 2 different regions) no one has asked me for my license or permit.
It seems like I could have run the weekend without anyone verifying my qualifications to be there.

I've had to tell them and then find the right person to deal with because I want the sign-offs..... I had to wait an hour in one region for official results for a signoff...

Is it typical that no one asks? Is this a misperception on my part? Would they have stopped me on grid?

My point is I want to follow the rules and do it right - even drive less aggressively during my novice races because an "incident" may prevent me from getting my license.

But does this guy? He bought a car that no one recommended because its faster.
He's already outside the envelope. So would you really be surprised if he isn't properly licensed/experienced?

That's definitely not how it happens at an SCCBC event.

We can register online, but even if you have, you must produce your driver's license, club membership card and race license at the track to complete your registration. Only then can you get your car (and gear) teched, and then get a sticker to take your car on track.

So, no: I don't think that it isn't that he hasn't been properly licensed. I think he's just bitten off a little too big a jump on too little experience.

[Josh Pitt]

I have 1 weekend to go on my novice permit and quite frankly when checking in for a weekend (in 2 different regions) no one has asked me for my license or permit.
It seems like I could have run the weekend without anyone verifying my qualifications to be there.

I've had to tell them and then find the right person to deal with because I want the sign-offs..... I had to wait an hour in one region for official results for a signoff...

Is it typical that no one asks? Is this a misperception on my part? Would they have stopped me on grid?

My point is I want to follow the rules and do it right - even drive less aggressively during my novice races because an "incident" may prevent me from getting my license.

But does this guy? He bought a car that no one recommended because its faster.
He's already outside the envelope. So would you really be surprised if he isn't properly licensed/experienced?

BBR,
my last weekend racing with the local region, I went out on track the ENTIRE weekend w/o ever getting a tech sticker. I even asked the tech guy and he said he was too busy. nobody on grid checked/cared. I knew my car was safe/compliant, but it made me wonder about the all others on track, and the club itself.
I used to road race MC and we had a non local club run the event. they said we didn't need hay bales in front of exposed concrete that I saw from experience was a must. I chose to watch that weekend and not race.

choose wisely who you race wheel to wheel with on the track, and also choose wisely what clubs you race with. when you start to observe how things are done, they are not all the same, and some are just not safe.

[BillH]

BBR,
my last weekend racing with the local region, I went out on track the ENTIRE weekend w/o ever getting a tech sticker. I even asked the tech guy and he said he was too busy. nobody on grid checked/cared. I knew my car was safe/compliant, but it made me wonder about the all others on track, and the club itself.

choose wisely who you race wheel to wheel with on the track, and also choose wisely what clubs you race with. when you start to observe how things are done, they are not all the same, and some are just not safe.

As a tech guy (and former Chief of Tech) - that's insane.

The things I've seen over the years like holes in tire sidewalls, loose batteries, etc. makes me cringe.

Our grid personnel check tech stickers and arm restraints on EVERY car. Our flagmen check tech stickers and arm bands when you're going out to practice.

The officials that didn't have a discussion with the Ecoboost driver are the ones who need a talking to.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Our grid personnel check tech stickers and arm restraints on EVERY car. Our flagmen check tech stickers and arm bands when you're going out to practice.

The grid personnel I've run across have been vigilant - with one exception. I did not grid for a practice and rolled up after the group was on track. The only thing checked was my armband.....

When people are late this is exactly the time when things get missed (by us drivers)!
I've did a practice once with my helmet unfastened!

We may be in a hurry, and I appreciate their sensitivity to the track time ticking away, but that's exactly the time when I should be stopped and checked more closely! Even late I missed maybe 1 lap. If they would have stopped me and taken more time (30 sec) I would have been down still 1 lap....

Suggestion: Maybe they should have 2 gatekeepers after the grid is gone. Each looking for different things...

Don't get me wrong. I think the workers do a great job, but they are human, and drivers (unjustly) put them under pressure. They are there for us, for our safety. But safety and preparedness is ultimately our responsibility....