Class Discussion

[2BWise]

I chose FE over SM specifically. The minute I figured out that the costs of a competitive FE was similar to (or perhaps even lower than) the cost of a competitive SM it was a no brainer for me. I also live in an area where FE's are showing up to races so that is also a part of the equation.

So field sizes were not a part of your original decision? It's usually easier to join big fields that already exist than to try and talk people into jumping ship from their chosen class to play in yours.

[dsmithwc04]

Chris, I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.

First, you say that your $18k FC cost less than half that of a good FE. I bought mine for $25k with almost all upgrades, fresh motor and gearbox, and some other bits. The only thing keeping it from winning races at the moment is my inexperience as a driver. Another FE just sold for $20k that appeared to be just as competitive as my own.

Secondly, just about any class that you aim to be competitive in will require at least a new set of tires per weekend so I'm not sure what your point is there. A new set of tires on an FE are around $800 which isn't bad.

I seriously doubt the FC is cheaper than an FE with regards to the average cost of maintaining the engine over a 3-5 season span.

I don't see how I'm breezing over your points? You bring up that your car was only $18k to purchase but fail to acknowledge the importance of running costs in the big picture. You can probably run an FE in the runoffs with a chance of winning (driver dependant) for the same cost as running mid pack at an F2000 champ series race.

Furthermore, some classes are better attended, some are about the same, and some are worse. Open wheel racing has a serious problem across the board with participation.

[Wren]

You can probably run an FE in the runoffs with a chance of winning (driver dependant) for the same cost as running mid pack at an F2000 champ series race.

No, just no. That statement has no basis in reality.

You bought an FE. You like it. We get it. Just accept that the majority of the SCCA doesn't.

[dsmithwc04]

Since our series was discussed....

I think if you feel you're flogging the expired equine, it might be because others don't agree with you. This thread has aspects of a PR piece for the FE rather than a discussion. One might take exception to your statement about the FE being the cheapest to buy, and operate.

One might also look at the actual performance of the FE, in comparison to another OW class, say FC or FF. There may be a reason why those two classes have survived so long and FE has, for all intent and purposes, stalled out at about 120. I certainly don't have an answer to many of the questions, but I tend to look at realities and economics.

Ok...Chris beat me to it, and said it better.

To be fair, this is in the FE forum and not the General forum. I was thinking I was going to be engaging with other FE guys in hopes to get a better understanding from those that have been in the game much longer than I.

So field sizes were not a part of your original decision? It's usually easier to join big fields that already exist than to try and talk people into jumping ship from their chosen class to play in yours.

Of course field sizes were part of my original decision. That is exactly why I said was a part of the equation for me when I chose FE just a few posts ago.

This thread is not meant to talk people into joining FE. It was a thread made in the FE forum to see what other FE guys thought.

[Bob Wright]

Point taken- Its the FE forum but you are referencing other classes and making comparisons so people jump in.

I would think one of the best ways to understand why the class is where it is would be to ask why drivers have left the class and why they've joined; especially to and from other OW classes.

Maybe that's really what you're trying to do with this thread?

[dsmithwc04]

I must be coming across in a totally different way than I imagined as it appears as though I am rubbing folks the wrong way. I truly regret even asking my question at this point. I've encountered so many good people willing to help answer technical questions, of which I am very grateful, that I didn't see how personal opinions and views must be approached much more delicately than I apparently understood. Perhaps we should just move on and let this thread get buried.

[Chris Livengood]

On my part no disrespect was intended. None at all, I enjoy a lively discussion.

[Marshall Mauney]

Costs the same to run an FE in 10th place as is does 1st place. That's the point I'm trying to convey.

I have to step in and disagree.

The guy running in first place is spending a LOT more, because he is getting a lot more seat time. That seat time is being used to generate comfort in the car and dial his setup n to within very fine shades of perfection.

In fact, I would suggest that in a spec class, it is harder to win, because you cannot just engineer your way into a faster car and go drive it without hitting the sweet spot on every last item.

Compare to F500/F600 this year at Daytona. Jay build a phenomenal car, with drag far lower than anything out there. Put it in the hands of Cal Stewart, and he walks away from the field with plenty of margin. He could have missed the setup by enough to be mid-pack in a spec class, and would still have won that race because the car was just that much better. That's not happening in FE - you have to have the seat time.

Let me be clear - I'm not suggesting that this is a problem. In fact it is the reason lots of guys choose a spec class.

I will agree with you on the cost per event, with one caveat:

You have to keep the car off the walls. Crash damage is expensive in FE. Everything else is cheap - tires, engine rebuilds, tuning parts, etc.

[Mick Robinson]

Chris, you are the exception to the rule. Very few racers are as good as you are at prepping, understanding and getting the most from their cars. Great job. But most of the drivers in your class are not like you.

Steve, I don't think I have EVER seen an engineer at a race with an FE competitor unless it was a USF2000 event. And those are not the guys that are the focus of this post. FE club racers are.

For a get in and win class, FE is the open wheel option that seems to suit most drivers according to the author of this thread.

The question of the post is why aren't more people getting into the FE to FE competitors. Plain and simple. The other classes being brought into the discussion were for cost and ease of winning comparison. The other classes were not being slammed, just used for measuring the ease of winning and being competitive.

The thought I get from the thread is: FE guys, why are there not more drivers in the class?

One more point, Van Diemen (Elan) will only sell batches of new cars to Enterprises. If you are interested in a new FE, call the CSR and get on a list. When the new car order quota is met, the order will be sent to Elan for new cars. It's business for both sides. Van Diemen wants to manufacture a batch and Enterprises does not want to have multiple car kits taking up space until they are sold. My .02 here is if Elan wants to sell cars and I don't think they are at max capacity these days, make a few and see if they move. The more cars that are out there the more parts they sell. But I am not on the inside and don't know the business plan for that idea. (Another thread probably...)

As a past FF driver, I had to constantly update the car ( 2 to 4 times a year), latest header, suspension, engine, tires, brakes, CV joints, etc until it was just to expensive to keep the car running up front. With the FE, one car has it all. Yes, there were updates to the FE but spread out and most of them were not that expensive. If you buy a kit now, all of those updates are included.

Hope everyone has a great 2016, see you at the races!

[Raceworks]

Chris, you are the exception to the rule. Very few racers are as good as you are at prepping, understanding and getting the most from their cars. Great job. But most of the drivers in your class are not like you.

Steve, I don't think I have EVER seen an engineer at a race with an FE competitor unless it was a USF2000 event. And those are not the guys that are the focus of this post. FE club racers are.

For a get in and win class, FE is the open wheel option that seems to suit most drivers according to the author of this thread.

The question of the post is why aren't more people getting into the FE to FE competitors. Plain and simple. The other classes being brought into the discussion were for cost and ease of winning comparison. The other classes were not being slammed, just used for measuring the ease of winning and being competitive.

The thought I get from the thread is: FE guys, why are there not more drivers in the class?

One more point, Van Diemen (Elan) will only sell batches of new cars to Enterprises. If you are interested in a new FE, call the CSR and get on a list. When the new car order quota is met, the order will be sent to Elan for new cars. It's business for both sides. Van Diemen wants to manufacture a batch and Enterprises does not want to have multiple car kits taking up space until they are sold. My .02 here is if Elan wants to sell cars and I don't think they are at max capacity these days, make a few and see if they move. The more cars that are out there the more parts they sell. But I am not on the inside and don't know the business plan for that idea. (Another thread probably...)

As a past FF driver, I had to constantly update the car ( 2 to 4 times a year), latest header, suspension, engine, tires, brakes, CV joints, etc until it was just to expensive to keep the car running up front. With the FE, one car has it all. Yes, there were updates to the FE but spread out and most of them were not that expensive. If you buy a kit now, all of those updates are included.

Hope everyone has a great 2016, see you at the races!

In 2005, the popularity of open wheel classes was as follows:
FV #2 (650 entries)
FA #3 (549 entries)
FC #4 (514 entries)
FF #10 (404 entries)
FM #12 (368 entries)
F500 #15 (329 entries)

That's pre FE & FB. The big dog that year was SRF (1,320 entries)


In 2010, it looked like this mid-season (the only numbers I could find)
FV #4 (389 entries)
FF #6 (321 entries)
FM #8 (268 entries)
FE #10 (245 entries)
F5 #11 (231 entries)
FC #12 (228 entries)
FA #15 (198 entries)
FB #20 (154 entries)

Top dog that year was SM (1,142 entries) followed by SRF (982 entries)

In 2015, this was the the picture:
FV #5 (301 entries)
FF #6 (246 entries)
FE #18 (125 entries)
FB #19 (122 entries) tied
F5 #19 (122 entries) tied
FC #21 (108 entries)
FM #22 (106 entries)

Again, the top dog is SM (792 entries).

The entries for the two opening Majors races in Florida are as follows:

Homestead: FA 7, FB 4, FC 4, FE 3, FF 12, FM 1, FV 9, F5 6
Sebring: FA 9, FB 4, FC 3, FE 5, FF 16, FM 1, FV 7, F5 4


The cheapest cars to acquire & run are going to be FV & F5. F5's are significantly faster than FV and I doubt they cost that much more to run, and yet FV has consistently been in the top 5 in popularity in Nationals / Majors racing while F5 can't crack the top 10.

The next step is FF, which has pretty consistently been in the top 10, and may top FV in class participation this year. A relatively strong pro series hasn't harmed club racing numbers. With the spec tire rule in place it will be even easier to skip between both club & pro races.

The class I started open wheel racing in, FM, is probably still cheaper overall than FE as long as you don't need to get a motor rebuilt. The gearboxes need some extra maintenance but the spares are still way cheaper. Plus the simpler aero means it's a simpler beast to tune than an FE car.

I'd put FE on the next tier for expense. The spares are kind of pricey even compared to FF / FC type cars and the multi-element wing packages can be a pain to tune. Still, it's a reliable spec package and fully developed at this point.

FC is next on on the tier of expense. Spares are actually cheaper than FE but the engines aren't as bulletproof and you can toss a lot of money at ideal aero packages for different tracks. At one point this was an extremely popular class but it seems that while the pro series is doing well the class is on life support at the club level.

FB comes in next, mostly because these cars seem to go through a lot of engines. Faster than FA at many tracks. This class hasn't seemed to have really caught on in spite of the fact that it offers better bang for the buck than an FA.

FA is probably the most volatile classes. Sometimes it's in the top 10 in popularity, other times less so. The cars are ridiculously expensive to acquire and maintain compared to anything else here, and the fact only the really rich can enjoy them probably explains the class volatility.


Now, logically the class participation numbers should follow the order I've put for expenses, and yet this isn't the case. F5 probably offers more bang for the buck than FF, and yet FF is much more popular.

From my own experience, I went with FM when I started open wheel racing rather than FE because the FE was too new and I really didn't want to learn how to deal with pushrod suspension AND multi-element wings as well as the other complexities of open wheel. Had FF had the Honda package in 2002 I might have gone that route instead. After about a decade in FM where we won SARRC and two National championships we moved to FF, and won the inaugural F1600 pro race, and we've been able to run competitively with every platform we've had in that class.

FM still has a lot of positives even if the engine costs have skyrocketed. For one thing you can get cars for as little as $10,000 and even if an engine rebuild costs almost as much you've got a package that's nearly as fast as FC or FE and can be had for less than half the cost. And yet the class is pretty much dead.

As some have said, FF is a class you can sink a bunch of money on. I haven't had that experience myself, but then again things like trick headers aren't really an option on the Fit motor and from my experience in various tin-top classes I tend to regard a lot of the "trick parts" as the motorsports equivalent of snake oil. I've managed to get through whole Majors weekends on a single set of the R45 bias plys and from my own testing this year I'm confident I can run competitively using a single set of the new radials for two Majors weekends. It's insane how well the new tires last.

It seems to me that for a variety of reasons the Spec formula car thing isn't working in club racing. I can't really offer an explanation for why that is because it appears to me that the decision making process racers use to pick race cars isn't strictly rational. If it was the participation numbers would be in line with the costs I've outlined. At a guess I'd say the people that want to run spec cars are finding SRF & SM more attractive.

FE never really seemed to take off nationally. It had the best participation numbers in the Southeast. In fact I recall numerous events where it was the most highly attended open wheel class. Lately the numbers have dropped off. As I said I might have gone with FE had FM not existed and been strong at the time, or I might not have jumped in at all.

Even in the Southeast the numbers have been down the last couple of years, so as others have said somebody maybe needs to talk to those former competitors and ask them why they left the class.

[dsmithwc04]

I think the answer to this thread, as you also pointed out, is a real lack of rational thought behind peoples reasons for picking a class.

Also, I was looking to get into FM at one point. Then I became aware of FE. For me that was a no brainer for three reasons.
1. Fuel injected. No thanks to messing around with a carb
2. Proven engine/gear box reliability. No thanks to Rotory power.
3. Although there are other more technical reasons, number 3 has to be looks. Put the two side by side..... no comparison.

[DanW]

I think the answer to this thread, as you also pointed out, is a real lack of rational thought behind peoples reasons for picking a class.

Also, I was looking to get into FM at one point. Then I became aware of FE. For me that was a no brainer for three reasons.
1. Fuel injected. No thanks to messing around with a carb
2. Proven engine/gear box reliability. No thanks to Rotory power.
3. Although there are other more technical reasons, number 3 has to be looks. Put the two side by side..... no comparison.

Amen on #3. A car dealer once told me that almost everyone researches their purchase to death until they get to the showroom, then buy with their eyes.

[dsmithwc04]

Amen on #3. A car dealer once told me that almost everyone researches their purchase to death until they get to the showroom, then buy with their eyes.

My dad was a salesman for a big dealer. He said the same exact thing. The car people would pick had more to do with the salesman and the weather outside at the time of purchase than it ever did on what the customers thought they needed.

[Carl Przyborowski]

Here is my $0.02 as someone who as been a participant in the FE class since before it had national status.

SCCA hasn't exactly been all it could for the class. I am not referencing Enterprise as they have always done all they are capable of with the budget they have to work with. And all things considered, they do a nice job on behalf of the FE participants. I am talking about the club legislators. While the class was still in its somewhat infancy stage and growing in popularity, along comes the FB concept and they are immediately granted a class and national status without having to do the preliminary groundwork in the regional arena like the FE was required to do. So now this new, very attractive entry FE class (and a perfect transition for young kart racers to move up to) had competition. And in my opinion (and I am probably going to get some feedback about it), the FB platform is much like a DSR with less body work. So I am not sure what void SCCA was trying to fill by setting up a FB program. The car counts in the FB class have never been very strong (at least here in the Midwest) and if there is some dissatisfaction brewing because of cost and other objections, the car count doesn't look like it is going to get better any time soon, if ever.

So in spite of the distraction, FE forges on in popularity and participation, albeit slowly. And now again, SCCA establishes another formula car class (this time a pro format that is yet to be tested here in the USA) for FE to compete with. And the target for participation is? Again, the entry level people, particularly the younger ones.

The FE class owes most of its success here in the Midwest to Steve Stadel and One Formula Racing. Steve has taken the lead in promoting the class and his first season promoting an FE season within the SCCA Majors schedule in 2015 was a major success in attracting interest and participation. In my opinion, we all owe Steve our gratitude.

As far as the cost of a car is concerned, I disagree with the sentiment that a competitive car cannot be had for less than $45,000. If the reference was to a car, trailer, and a full array of spares including wings, nose cones etc., then I could agree with that. But for the car alone, a good one can be had for much less, unless something has recently changed in a big way.

One other thing that I belief hurts our FE class a bit is a dislike among many for a spec racer format. Let's face it; there are plenty of people who just can't be satisfied with knowing they did their best and gave their car a good drive. They want to win from the get-go even if it means paying a fortune to win a class with few entries. And even our FE class has suffered a bit from new, young drivers who have left the class after a year or two because they couldn't dominate. I don't think there is much anyone or any organization can do about this though. It's just seems to be the way things are going.

All in all, the FE class is in my opinion is the fastest, best racing, most fun formula car class for the money and the time required to participate. The car itself is a brute by formula car standards and capable of lots of track time between major work requirements. A great car, good participants, and people like One Formula Racing who help the new people get orientated and up to speed makes for a nice program.

[Marshall Mauney]

Well said, Carl.

Any chance of getting you back in this year? I think you'd really like the racing with the car counts we've been seeing........


....and I promise not to drop any more oil when you're around!

[Jim Nash]

I think the answer to this thread, as you also pointed out, is a real lack of rational thought behind peoples reasons for picking a class.

So basically, in your opinion, a lot of us are irrational? You're not the first to decide this. I am surprised you continue to engage such people.

We road race open wheeled formula cars so I suppose you are correct.

Jim

[dsmithwc04]

So basically, in your opinion, a lot of us are irrational? You're not the first to decide this. I am surprised you continue to engage such people.

We road race open wheeled formula cars so I suppose you are correct.

Jim

Jim, prior to your post I wasn't even aware of you personally. However, I am miffed at how you could take a generalized statement, of which I am most certainly not alone in having such an opinion, and then take it as an attack on you personally. Surely, in this world we live in, you have grown thicker skin than that?

Let me clear the air right now. I have met more friendly and helpful people at the race track than anywhere else I've ever spent much time around with large groups of people. However, we are all human and we all have a great amount of potential to make some bonehead decisions. I am not an exception to this fact.

Yes, I believe there have been many irrational decisions made by folks when deciding to take up racing and choosing which car to run.

No, I had no intentional of personally attacking you in that statement I made that you quoted and labeling you as irrational... However, is it not little irrational to take offense to a statement made by some guy on the internet that had no reference to you at all?

[Carl Przyborowski]

Hello Marshall. I am planning to be back to the class after running only one event last year, that being Blackhawk. I am not sure to what extent yet. That will have to depend on a car being available for me at the events I can make. We'll see.

Looking back on it, I now wish I would have been a little more patient before backing away for a bit. Steve Stadel did such a nice job promoting the class and series. Everyone seemed to be having a good time, and there is no question that the car counts per event in Cen-Div were much higher than in past years. I sure missed being a part of it. I also missed attending the season wrap up get-together at the One Formula Racing facility. I found the invite in my laptop's spam folder two weeks after the event.

As far as the oil drop is concerned, what do you mean by "when you are around"? Just asking.

All the best for a nice 2016 to you and the entire FE crowd!

[Jim Nash]

Jim, prior to your post I wasn't even aware of you personally. However, I am miffed at how you could take a generalized statement, of which I am most certainly not alone in having such an opinion, and then take it as an attack on you personally. Surely, in this world we live in, you have grown thicker skin than that?

Let me clear the air right now. I have met more friendly and helpful people at the race track than anywhere else I've ever spent much time around with large groups of people. However, we are all human and we all have a great amount of potential to make some bonehead decisions. I am not an exception to this fact.

Yes, I believe there have been many irrational decisions made by folks when deciding to take up racing and choosing which car to run.

No, I had no intentional of personally attacking you in that statement I made that you quoted and labeling you as irrational... However, is it not little irrational to take offense to a statement made by some guy on the internet that had no reference to you at all?

I did not take it personally. I actually agreed with you. Once again, sorry I miffed you. It is not hard to do.

Jim

[Marshall Mauney]

Hello Marshall. I am planning to be back to the class after running only one event last year, that being Blackhawk. I am not sure to what extent yet. That will have to depend on a car being available for me at the events I can make. We'll see.

If you need a car for an event I'm not going to run, we could absolutely put you in mine.

As far as the oil drop is concerned, what do you mean by "when you are around"? Just asking.

OK. Maybe just Turn 5 at Road America when we're running close together. Just crazy dumb luck, I guess. I feel like I still owe you one after spraying transmission oil in your face at the Runoffs a few years ago.....

All the best for a nice 2016 to you and the entire FE crowd!

Same to you - see you at the track!

[Drew 13]

I did not take it personally. I actually agreed with you. Once again, sorry I miffed you. It is not hard to do.

Jim

Some folks just can't take a joke. I chuckled at your 1st post.

[dsmithwc04]

Some folks just can't take a joke. I chuckled at your 1st post.

Sarcasm doesnt always come through very well and can easily be taken out of context when written and not spoken.. Im just glad this thread wasnt derailed by folks who dont even compete in FE.... oh wait...