Contribute dims for 3D Model
Unless you know otherwise, there does not seem to be any 3D CAD model of the FM chassis, body and external features. I am a composite engineer with 3D modeling expertise and rather than start from scratch, please offer up any measurements and drawings you have or know of. I will share the completed file with all contributors. 3D print a car or whatever. My ultimate goal is computer simulated wind tunnel testing and aerodynamic testing on airfoils, angles, downforce, etc.
Awesome!
I am an Aerospace Engineer, and I have access to Solidworks. Let me know if you need help modeling or with CFD simulation.
Solidworks is what I use as well!
This is very good news. We can collaborate and break this job down a bit. How much are you in to airfoils? There was CFD research done several years ago I came across. But I don't understand how to translate the CFD charts and data into actual down force realized on the track (outside factors aside)
Bob
3D scanning
There is a place they just put in at the Mall of America in Minneapolis that does 3d scanning.
http://3dprint.com/100533/me-3d-mall-of-america/
would be great if you could pull the car in there and get it scanned to a 3d model. They seem to be catering to the Holiday shoppers by having your kids scanned then 3d printed in a mini statue.
Good stuff guys...
I"m not sure if you have all seen this but just in case...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...95717705004590
As a side note, I'm working on completely new body work designs including updated wings, side pods, etc. so I will have interest in what you are doing as well. We have a 7 car team moving out of the FM spec class and want to start with what we have. I will provide the results of my designs to those interested in converting as well. As of right now Formula S is the regional class but the hope is that we could find a way to run in another national class one completed. Best of luck to you guys!
Dan
Yeah, cfd calcs are going to be great. You also need to keep in mind that probably half the downforce is generated by the underside of the car. So doing full car simulation is going to be vital.
When I worked on indycars, Dallara gave us a book and program to help us estimate total downforce numbers as well as telling us loads on each wheel so we can estimate balance for handling. This would be a huge step for the car, having data like that.
Donating a FM. Not really.
This is very cool.
1. We should all pull together and agree on a new body design.
2. Go with the bigger and better brakes (also less expensive).
3. Get rid of the new tire rule so we can run in cooler weather ( our season ends in April and starts in Jan.). Goodyear's hardest compound isn't going to work.
4. Tell Daryl Drummond to give us the 210hp the new motor package can deliver.
5. Approach Moses and SCCA. About a new FM2 national class just like the new SRF3.
If we don't pull together well will just have an FS car that's worthless or just a track car.
I don't know of anyone east of the Mississippi River that's running a FM in national races next year. (Pitiful) Only one did the Runoffs this year and he is turning his car into a P2 car for 2016.
I have a car you guys can use if you want.
Robert Noell FM#27
changes??? Hmmm. I dont know.
Heres my take on changes....
I am very against dramatic changes, because they cause costs. No matter the intention, they always cost dollars for the people staying in the class, and they cost people leaving the class.
Not trying to sound like a dick, but to me any bodywork changes would need to be minimal and cheap cheap cheap. Brakes, yes bigger/better brakes are always good. I think we would need the option to run old or new stuff.
As far as the engine; this is a very complex issue. on one hand, yes we CAN make more power out of it, but where is the limit? Do we go 210-250? Twin turbo 500hp? Indy light level 550? We need to be conscious that there are a lot of people out there with a lot of history on this exact car setup. There are a lot of cars still out there with these engines. A change over to a new spec would be a HUGE cost and undertaking, and would cause people to flee, some to not race for a couple years, and be even more dificult to attract new people.
This is an issue that all levels of motorsport deal with (and frequently struggle with, EG F1 and their idiotic engine rules recently) and we need to be VERY carefull that we dont accidentally kill a series we love.
Sorry, babbling over. Maybe we start a new thread for this topic and invite Moses to talk with us?
Preston, you nailed down a lot of what our team is thinking. We also think huge sweeping changes in the car will create problems--as in "it would be easier to just sell your FM and get a different car." Cost will be an important part of this equation, make no mistake about it.Originally Posted by preston27
We currently wish to keep the same engine/trans but haven't yet thought of how to deal with a sealed motor, etc. The various trans (mk5/9) can only handle so much HP/Trq so that is also a consideration. Two items you touched on that I want to address... 1) Tires. this is the primary reason we are leaving the class. To us the 470 is undrivable. I don't really care if we had a bad batch or whatever excuse there is. The fact is they force fed us a tire that already has proven issues versus work out the issues and then have us drive it. I have heard the same thing on the east coast guys regarding runnoffs. I only know of one driver on the West coast that plans to run it. There is a small group of drivers that is interested in what we are doing as well and hope to ultimately create a new class down the road. For now, that is FS. The second item is having someone "in charge" of the class. We wish to help everyone by providing some guidelines on how on we wish the class to be run. As much as I appreciate everything Moses has done and continues to do, we do not like that one person controls all of the decisions. I know he consults with others and does what he thinks is best for the class and while I can appreciate that I don't always agree with the decisions. I understand that you can't make everyone happy. I do not envy his position.
What we care about is having a fun and safe class. With the new tire rule we feel that neither is going to happen. This is a great opportunity to change things up for us. Brakes, shocks, aero, tires, sealed motors(?), fuel injection(?), etc. are all on the board. We will not be limited on who we can buy parts from since we won't be running in the FM Spec class any more. We obviously won't be able to run any national races unless we run FA. We may still be FM legal (less our tires) for a part of this season but we will not muck up the standings for those who are running for trophies or points. These people are our friends so we want the people who earn the recognition to get it.
We won't be doing much for actual changes until next calendar year but if you want to be involved feel free to private message me. I am aware that our decision to do this may split an already weak class and not be a popular one. My reply to that is simply "we are trying to get ahead of the curve just in case the class falls off completely". We all do what we have to do and we all love these cars or we wouldn't be here talking about them. We just don't want the cars to become worthless.
I will share data as it comes up.
Dan
Common sense
Guys,
I like to go fast too. I am not against upgraded body work. I think everybody knows Moses has been working on an engine upgrade. The bottom line is that this chassis etc. was not designed for even higher speeds. We were above 150MPH at Daytona this year. If you want all the new stuff, just buy a Pro Formula Mazda and you can go a little faster for a lot more money.
Dale McCallum
Exactly. Racing these days is littered with class options. Adding any more power, different body, gearbox, etc and now you are in Pro FM. Don't like that one? side step to F2000. Don't like that one? Side step to F1000. or f3, or indy lights, or FA, on and on and on. Not trying to start a rant, but we are spoiled for choice. IMO it tends to water down the market, not many people in any one class and makes sponsorship impossible to come by.
FM
Dale you are 100% right The car was built from a 1982 Hayashi Formula Ford, with smaller tires and less HP. It doesn't need to go faster We need to support Moses and build the car count. Dwayne
It's just a question guys.
I have 2 Formula Mazda race cars. When I race at VIR and Road Altanta regional races I'm out there with other FM's running as FS with a lot more power than me. Here in my region there are more FM's running in the FS class than there are FMs.
I wouldn't mind converting one to an FS car and run the other car as a FM.
I support Moses as I know he and Tara have to make tough choices that can't please everyone including myself.
I know the gentleman who started this thread and he is brilliant. He doesn't want any money to design new body work that would attach to the car using the exact attachment points that are on the current car. He can also make molds etc. He also has access to a full scale wind tunnel.
This is for an FS car not a FM BUT IF the finished (that is IF guys not when) product is more areo, looks better, bolts up with no modification and cost the same or less why not? The only reason anyone wouldn't want it would be ego, but we don't have that problem here on Apexspeed do we guys ????.
He is only asking if anyone can help with files or drawings.
This is the only place I know of that people get hammered, called out, and ridiculed about thinking or asking a question and I'm not talking about this thread I'm talking about my tire post from back in Jan. In that post I said it would be the 475 compound I was wrong again it's a 470.
There isn't a single FM that I know of east of the Mississippi planing on running in the Majors next year but myself. Wonder why? Outdated body work is one reason, now tires, then it will be a motor package more expensive than a whole car. Then add another 50lbs to the car because it's fuel injected 1400lb min per SCCA. If these "hard choices" continue to not effect Texas and warm weather regions ( Southern Ca.) then we are done anyway as a national class. We race in 30-40 degree weather how is GoodYear's hardest tire ever going to work? I don't know because I can't even get a set from Sasco yet I have tried.
Slowest winged Formula car in SCCA period for 2016. . I can't believe a racer wants to go slower in the same car.
I plan to run my "not legal" FM as a FL here in the NW. For that reason, I support the new bodywork idea, along with any others. New brakes? SURE!
If this guy designs, and builds new bodywork that looks better, and works better than what I have now? I WANT IT! I understand that it won't be FM legal, but for ME, that doesn't amount to anything. If my car were here (awaiting BATS pickup currently), I would/will measure anything, photograph anything you want. Just ask.
-Chris
Preston, once again you and I are on the same page. Much of what is written on these boards is shot down by those that have been in the class for a long time and would like to remain as it is so any ideas that don't support that are not well received. In our case, we really don't care. The FM numbers are down and will continue to go down if things don't change. In order to crown a FM champion (at runoffs) there must be 10 cars that start the race. It was damn lucky that they had that this year. FS is where the party is at for many of us former FM racers. The cost to run FM is relatively low and if we find a way to keep the costs low and update some stuff I can't see why people would object to that. For those of us that own multiple cars it isn't as easy as "sell your FM and get a different car...". Our team has a total of 7 running cars and a few more that are used as parts cars. We are heavily invested in spare parts, setup info, and driving school students that wish to race. We have the choice to make the existing car drivable (which it is with 255's, 430's, or even the 475's) but since we have made the switch to FS we might as well spend a few bucks on updating some stuff and have a much nicer looking car.
It sounds like we need to start a new thread on here. I'll take the risk and start it and let the flamers come out and tell me/us how dumb we are. I'll make sure to not sell them any of the parts once they are made if they can't be constructive to our ideas.
Dan
Guys this is great stuff. Didn’t know by asking for some dims it would generate this good discussion. So since I’m an engineer and tend to organize and distill, here is what I have from reading every word of this thread so far. Dan, you may want to post this in the new thread. I will make a post after this related back to the dimensions and modeling.
1) Cost is king, this is a hobby.
2) This is about Formula Mazda and owners of these cars
a.Not about changing to another car
b.Not about drastic changes
c.We know set-up, base line data, invested big $$.
d.We’re not about Pro FM big $$ and sponsors
e.We are weekend warriors
3)Current design and rules are boring, aged, too restrictive and killing the class.
a.Nobody favors latest tire decisions, all good intentions aside
4)Bigger better less expensive brakes are highly desired, and would add safety
5)Allow for a little innovation and promote knowledge sharing.
6)Change existing class or create FM2
a.There seems to be strong loyalty to Moses in this class
b.Ability to easily run competitively in both classes?
c.Even if a new class shall emerge, refer to #1.
d.Can a lightly modified FM really compete well in FS?
7)Baseline aerodynamic study/information desirable
a.For example, what downforce is produced at specific angles and speeds
8)Collective collaboration on updated body
a.Aerodynamics aside, needs a face lift.
9)Keep dependable low cost 13b as spec engine.
a.End the HP restriction available from the 13b engine.
b.But may create other failures and blow tyranny and engines.
10)Sole source / monopoly by Moses may be a conflict of interest
a.Support/Recognize Moses best intentions and want his involvement
b.FM has become Formula Moses
c.But many have invested much $$$ in these cars
Last edited by talicudbob; 12.03.15 at 2:10 AM. Reason: formatting
Simple request, cost nothing, gain alot
My goal is to get baseline chassis etc. dimensions on this proprietary car. I am not a car owner or I wouldn't be asking. But with this, and a model constructed from it, we can do anything; make and share concepts, bolt up minor changes to propose to Moses and FM, or for current FM owners to upgrade for FS. We can also conduct simulated wind tunnel testing. I could build a scale model and conduct actual wind tunnel testing.
Specifically what I have been asked to do is develop a cost effective upgrade kit for a FM to race outside of the existing FM spec. I am an engineer by training long ago from Univ of Michigan. I am currently a composites engineer working with carbon fiber and hybrids. BTW, carbon fiber does NOT have to be expensive like everyone makes you believe and I have had an innovative material custom made for met that is both lighter AND less expesnive. I have become extremely proficient at Solidworks 3D modeling, have access to wind tunnels, half million$ of surface scanning equipment, 5 axis cnc milling equipment, mold making capability, even vendors that make carbon fiber Indy car parts and wheel and tires for scaled Indy car wind tunnel testing. If ya'll decide, I could make molds and give them to Moses for FM. Ultimately that decision would be up to him of course.
Currently I have a front wing, a body nose, and a cockpit body but it is flimsy as you know so it's worthless unless I know body/roll bar attachment points so I can fixture it. I had a side pod but it went MIA. I intend to scan these parts and recreate the surfaces in Solidworks
Guys, I don't even have the basics to get started such as wheel base, wheel and tire measurements, etc. So anything, tid bits, I will piece it all together and post progress. A tape measure in a picture is ideal. The way Solidworks works, I can tweak the measurements if I get a more accurate one and it adjusts everything
If anyone knows of a car near Asheville NC ( WNC), Greenville SC, Spartanburg SC, Knoxville TN, Johnson City/Kingsport/Bristol TN please let me know.[/SIZE
Wow, it's 1:52 am, look what you guys are doing to me. I'm getting sucked in
Last edited by talicudbob; 12.03.15 at 2:55 AM. Reason: formatting
(makes puppy whining noises)
My car is about to be picked up in Canada. From there, it has to be shipped to me in Oregon. Once it gets here, as I've said. I'll measure ANYTHING/EVERYTHING for you. This is QUITE an exciting project! :-)
Wow... Just Wow!
talicudbob,
10)Sole source / monopoly by Moses may be a conflict of interest
a.Support/Recognize Moses best intentions and want his involvement
b.FM has become Formula Moses
Are you seriously complaining that Moses, The Manufacturer of the Formula Mazda has a monopoly?!?! On What He is the Manufacturer!
There is a dealer network, so you Can order parts from other places not just Moses.
9)Keep dependable low cost 13b as spec engine.
Do you realize that there are parts of the 13B motor that Mazda Does Not Make Anymore, making it very difficult to continue with this motor configuration
4)Bigger better less expensive brakes
You want Bigger Better brakes but at a Lower cost, How is that possible EVER?! Bigger Better = More$$
3)Current design and rules are boring, aged, too restrictive
Too Restrictive!? Its A Spec Class, that's the point!
Wow just wow
We are talking about FS not FM we need to move this to another forum. Some racers can't read. WOW.
Sorry but the list seemed to be directed at the FM since the #2 says this is about the Formula Mazda so WTF am I supposed to think.
so yeah maybe someone needs to move this discussion
But I still don't understand what is meant by Moses' monopoly that sure doesn't make sense, he's the manufacturer so what do you want!
Maybe you need to send one to China so they can reverse engineer it all for you!
by the way robert noell I read just fine and am well aware what this thread is all about!
Last edited by Mike42; 12.04.15 at 6:28 PM. Reason: ...1
"Boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast"
-Ron Burgundy
Dan, that is great! That is essentially what I have been asked to do. But to make the updates fairly easily interchangeable. It then benefits FM class having the option to run both ways. We should compare notes. I have studied the research paper and intend to provide a translation for drivers that aren't also rocket scientists. Such as downforce, angle, speed numbers. Then use that data to compare to CFD studies on some new wing designs. I will then also characterize the FM to run CFD studies and build scale model, conduct wind tunnel testing. FM drivers will know more baseline aero data than ever before. Then I will apply wing and body changes and rerun tests. BTW, no groundeffect down force designs planned, don't like the idea of you hitting a berm, losing GE and going airborn. More later guys!
-Bob
I have full scale wind tunnel data for the standard Formula Mazda done in the Langley full scale wind tunnel.
I have been running the FM as an FS car for several years utilizing a streetport 13B and associated modifications to support the power and would be happy to share what we have learned.
You know, I leave for a weekend and all hell breaks loose!
At the end of the day, we are where we are. I have never heard anyone say anything other than Moses has done the best he could and has made tough decisions. The questionable items seem to be the class' ability to sustain over time and the numbers don't lie. The class is seeing less and less participation and the tire thing didn't help matters.
Some of us are not willing to continue down the Spec FM road for various reasons so WE are stuck with a tough decision as well... Sell our cars (nobody will pay anything near what we have all paid for them) for $15,000 or less and switch classes or find a way to make them fun again. My team is HEAVILY invested in FM via cars, parts, knowledge, relationships, etc. and we are not willing to jump into a new class that costs 2 to 3 times as much and start over. We essentially race each other anyways so we might as well take the money we would generally spend to switch classes and use it to build an updated car to run. The FM platform is still pretty solid.
I have been working with many of the people who post on here (see the other string) to find a phased approached to the FS car that might eventually turn into a spec class down the road. Those people can identify themselves if they see fit. There is fear that by doing so they will be blackballed from buying parts and/or other repercussions which in itself is odd to me.
A comment was made that this has happened many times before and the bottom line is that we all need to find a way to work together. I would agree in almost every case but the feedback I've gotten just proves that this won't happen. I count 16 FS cars right now and another 6 that are switching this year. East coast people don't have a choice. They can't even buy the new spec tire. It's pretty hard to test without a tire and its even harder to race if you don't know if/when you can even buy the tire and then add the fact that GY doesn't show up to the races and you have a perfect storm. I attempted to buy 255's for my race this past weekend and I can't get those in Phoenix any more either. Awesome. We all ran old 255's instead--which were STILL better than the new 470's. Hoosier seem to be the only option we have right now. It isn't a terrible consolation prize since they pay contingency and are present at as many, if not more, than Goodyear is. My understand is that GY doesn't come to ANY east coast events. This is hearsay but seems very well substantiated. I feel compelled, however, to compliment all of my experiences with Goodyear up until this point of my racing career. Jim Dowdy has been a class act and we KNOW he has been busting his ass to help us racers out. In this case, I think Goodyear just can't find the answers we need in the time frame we need them. Plus they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they admit the tire run was bad, they will be issuing thousands of dollars in refunds. On the other hand, if they say the tire run was "good" they have an unusable product to support. No way to win.
The goal for a small group of us is pretty simple... Come up with an inexpensive way to update our cars in a phased approach. Much of those updates have been discussed and conversions are being made as I type. When some testing has occurred we will report back to the FM 2.0 (might be moved to FS if I can figure out how to move it. Mike Anderson made a very good point that it is easy to confuse things on this thread.) and tell the others what we have found. We might find out that our idea was horrible and come running back to FM with hat in hand and begging for forgiveness. Who knows. One thing I do know... We are all friends and I hope to keep it that way. We may not all agree on what should happen but I agree with the comment that we should keep things respectful--but be open to constructive criticism. We all wish to find a fun car with great people to race with. The latter has never been a problem in my experiences in FM.
Last edited by daericks; 12.07.15 at 5:02 PM.
Locating Goodyear race tires
Google Goodyear race tires:
Resulting search...
East
Shelby Carter-Maxwell, LLC
3801 N. Main Street
High Point, NC 27265
PHONE: (336) 884-0328
FAX: (336) 884-0392
There are three Goodyear distributors in the United States. They are broken up in East, West and Midwest. You can have your local tire shop mount and balance them for you. But they can do that with no problems. And you will be ready when you get to the track.
Since I live in the Midwest I deal with Carter-Maxwell out of Oklahoma City OK. They are great guys and will ship tires all over the world, just for you.
I don't mind the 470 rule. I think it is a good move to make racing more affordable to everyone.
Sincerely,
Larry
Tires?
No tire shop can balance our tires. The machines will not accept our wheel centers. Guess we will need to ship our wheels to the GoodYear distributor? Ridiculous. We need support at the track period. Go back to my original post back in Jan and tell me where I was wrong.
Funny how no one hasn't answered the erasing all FM track records, and history.
I can't wait to see everyone's face when MSR goes out on stickers on EVERY session. That's what they did last year ( but so did I) Do you really think everyone is going to use one set per weekend? That isn't the rule and since tires are fastest on the first session every competitive racer will need stickers to keep up. Unless your on stickers for each qualify your not going to win. That's the problem here. Almost everyone in favor of the tire rule doesn't care if they win or not ( I said almost everyone). That was the sales pitch to get you to vote for it. It's not reality. I live in NC and everyone I spoke with says the SAME thing " don't know when they can get them just not now". "Give us a call around the first of the year". Less than a week before the first Majors at Homestead.
Can't wait for anyone's reply about track records abolished. Are they going to be reset again when the $18000.00 fuel injection update comes out? (same power BTW) and 50lb penalty. Slower again.
I can't believe no one sees what's going on here. SCCA is giving someone enough rope to kill this class. I know these are tough choices and I do believe these decisions are intended for the long term success of FM. The intent is right but it's the decisions and actions that are tearing us apart. Sorry but these are the facts.
Hey....this is a FS board.
This thread is about the FS (FM 2.0) conversion not FM.
Anyone have the part numbers to convert the brake package to the 4 piston larger brakes?
I know some Mazda sport racers changed years ago, so the part numbers should be available.
I believe it is a wilwood brand.
Is it a pure bolt on application?
Ready to do some track testing at Sebring the day before the majors. I would like to see how the car with Carson using the new brakes,scuff Hoosiers and the loss of 25lbs of lead under the seat stacks up against other test day subjects.
Last edited by weedline; 12.09.15 at 11:00 PM.
Tires and records
Preston27,
You make good points and I don't think anyone will ever contest the comments about the records. It just doesn't make sense and to say it has anything to do with qualifying for the Runoffs is absurd in my opinion. You can essentially get in to that race in our class by asking for special consideration.
As for the tires, it is tough to argue that point as well. Jim Dowdy with Shelby Goodyear has been working towards solutions for those of you on the east coast but time will tell if it it just too late. Moses and his team should be running the same set of tires for two weekends in a row to validate the exact reason this tire was selected. I am not skilled enough to say if the tire is as good (bad?) with 1 heat cycle (new) as it is with 8 (the last cycle of the two race weekend). I am estimating by saying there are two heat cycles per race day with qualify and race so 4 cycles per weekend--assuming nobody runs practice on them. My guess is that his guys use one set for two race weekends. I am told that they are are or else this decision would make no sense at all. They were advertised to us as being as fast or FASTER the second weekend. Personally, I couldn't get two sessions on a set without flat spotting them so I'm not a great person to ask I guess. Again, time will tell on this one...
I know the elite guys at runoffs go out on new tires each qual session and the race and practice. Six sets of tires get used to run Runoffs for these guys. With the new rule, this should no longer be the case as well if thing are as they have suggested. That being said, this type strategy is still allowed since the new tire rule doesn't restrict the number of tires used in a race weekend. Hell, if you are good enough, you could come in for a pit stop mid-race and slap on yet another set legally!
not a bolt on
Weedline,This thread is about the FS (FM 2.0) conversion not FM.
Anyone have the part numbers to convert the brake package to the 4 piston larger brakes?
I know some Mazda sport racers changed years ago, so the part numbers should be available.
I believe it is a wilwood brand.
Is it a pure bolt on application?
Ready to do some track testing at Sebring the day before the majors. I would like to see how the car with Carson using the new brakes,scuff Hoosiers and the loss of 25lbs of lead under the seat stacks up against other test day subjects.
The Wilwood option is NOT a simple bolt on. It is, however, a complex bolt on! I spoke with Bruce Lawrence about this and he has some kits that he has tested and is building. This is a no-brainer for you hardcore FS guys. Final numbers are not in yet but the conversion would cost over $3,000.
You are right that this is not a FM board but at this point the two topics are intertwined. Many of the interested parties are currently FM drivers looking for reasons to stay in FM or leave for FS. I think we will have to put up with a bit of venting on the whole thing for this entire season. We can't really post much on the FM board because the moderator moved us to FS but there is overlap.
Since I started the thread I have gotten insane amounts of interest in this conversion and numerous questions about what the rest of the community is thinking. This is super odd since I am a relative unknown and not a great driver as far as I'm concerned. This is really only my third year with a FM. I'm leading the charge for a new FM2 class that will run under FS for 2016. There are quite a few contributors to this concept and once we have agreement on the basic rules I'll post our collective thoughts for comments. Right now I am at 16 racers that previously ran FM that want to switch to FM2/FS. That is a solid number considering we haven't publicly stated what that would look like. Guys with unsealed motors and Hoosiers as their preferred tire need a group to run with and have real competition. I will say that one of the items on the table is that we will never erase lap records unless the track configuration is changed!
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