FV Runoffs 2015

[BLS]

Way too quiet...

Since I'm stuck out in Texas and do not have my normal computer with the usual links, anyone have testing results? Are there even results available online anywhere?

What do we expect? I'm guessing a large group drafting, hard for a single car or even a small group to break away short of some pile up that seperates a group without a double yellow.

I hope everyone has a safe week and a lot of fun. Wish I were there...

Good luck to all!

Barry

[Agitator]

I'm headed down Wednesday, Barry. My folks and I are crewing for Donnie Isley and Laura Hayes. They have been there since Friday. Any info I get from them, I'll pass along.

[BLS]

Thanks James, and good luck to your drivers.

I should be back before the weekend. I had hoped to fly in for a couple days but that is not going to happen. Just hoping the "live" racing at SCCA.com is going to work. The speedcast tv always seemed to work pretty good...

Barry

[Tiago Santos]

Quali is underway it seems and so far, FV has the honor of being the absolute slowest class out there by almost 10 seconds a lap :P

Most of the usual suspects at the top of the chart, with some "new" names thrown in for good measure. Should be a good week.

[BLS]

Q1 Top 3:

Varacins 2:21.616
A. Whitson 2:21.951
Davis 2:22.314

[Bruce Livermore]

There is a discrepancy between the last "Live" result shown and the "Provisional Q1" results. The father and son team of Ron and Andy Whitson are 1 and 2 just clear of Mike V. who did his time on lap 7. They did their times (together I'm sure) on lap 11. Only 10 seem to be shown on the "Live" results page. The "Section Times" on the Live page also make no sense, adding up to much greater than the lap times...

Q1 provisional here:
http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1442853824

Full Results page here:

http://www.scca.com/pages/2015-runoffs-results

[Hardingfv32]

Anything known about the legality of bump drafting at this event?

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

I could be wrong (happens once or twice) but I'm pretty sure the rules are the same as any other SCCA event. No intentional contact allowed.

[BLS]

Bruce,

Beats me. I just went to SCCA and clicked on the live timing and results which shows a different set than what you posted. I assume what you have is correct...

[Hardingfv32]

I found out that all class can bump draft on only the straight sections of the track. Approval/consent of the car being pushed is required.

The fast time today for FV was set by the Whitsons working together the whole lap and catching (then passing) a 5 car pack at the exit of the Bus Stop. The perfect lap for them.

Brian

[Matt King]

I think somebody is pulling your leg. Read the Supps:

5.13 Bump Drafting: All on track body contact (including contact during drafting) that causes a car to act erratically and results in a change in position or a
car leaving the course will be investigated. Offenders can expect harsh penalties, which may be enforced either during or after the session.

[Agitator]

Heard from someone trackside yesterday that there was little to no contact during qualifying (i.e. - no pushing). Don't know if that was for fear of reprimand or not. I'm not sure how you get "permission" to push unless it's agreed on ahead of time. I'll be headed down tomorrow morning to crew for teammates. I know they'll push if given the chance. In the race, I have to assume that if officials haven't enforced it then there will be bump drafting among folks who haven't agreed or consented to it.

I know that when we used to run Charlotte Motor Speedway, there was lots of pushing amongst Vees. No wrecks that I can remember resulted from it.

What's going to be interesting is the Spec Miatas on Friday night. I have a feeling it's gonna look like a NASCAR restrictor plate race! Hopefully, they don't have the "big one"...

[Hardingfv32]

Edit: The Chief Steward ok'd Bump Drafting at the drivers meeting.

Bump drafting was clearly in play Monday with the SRFs... well onto/into the banking.

It is said that for some aero reason that the SMs run faster in pairs. Three or more cars is a slower combination.

Some interesting things I learned while investigation aero at/for Daytona:

1) Humidity makes the air less dense. Has something to do with the molecules of 'water vapor' being lighter than air molecules. Pilots monitor humidity because it causes loss of lift.

2) Aero drag increases on the banking (in turns) because the car is in yaw compared to its (forward?) movement. Still investigating the reason for this but the a well tested phenomena. Yaw testing is used by the OEMs when establishing a cars drag numbers.

Both of the above have a negative effect on the formation of the wake of the leading car in a draft situation.

Brian

[RussMcB]

In SM bump drafting at Daytona is good for 10 MPH (125 -> 135). It's a requirement for anyone hoping to be in the top 40.

[Bruce Livermore]

My experience running many, many laps with Ron at RA is that he is unlikely to push or like being pushed. I've run less laps with Andy but don't recall being pushed by him either. However, Daytona may be a different animal. I'm not there to see so can only speculate (like everyone else here ).

[Tiago Santos]

Quali is underway it seems and so far, FV has the honor of being the absolute slowest class out there by almost 10 seconds a lap :P

Phew - thank you B-Spec! We're in the clear folks.

[Matt King]

Edit: The Chief Steward ok'd Bump Drafting at the drivers meeting.

Let's hope nobody screws up and leaves the steward holding a copy of the Supps in one hand and his ass in the other.

[Hardingfv32]

From the FF Runoffs thread:

Originally Posted by stonebridge20
Tom, any truth to the supps stating no bump drafting but chief steward saying he's allowing it?

I asked the same question and what I was told is the rule is no interclass bump drafting. Apparently at a recent race a Gen3 SRF was pushing around a regular SRF to make it faster.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Driver's meeting on Tuesday it seems, fast forward to about 1min25: http://www.scca.com/videos/1972432

Bump drafting is allowed as long as done properly, between same class cars.

[Matt King]

5.13 Bump Drafting: All on track body contact (including contact during drafting) that causes a car to act erratically and results in a change in position or a
car leaving the course will be investigated. Offenders can expect harsh penalties, which may be enforced either during or after the session.

I'm curious what the bolded words mean in this context. Let's say on the final lap a car is bump drafted past another resulting in a change of final position, is that legal?

[Tiago Santos]

Hehe. This will be even more fun than normal.

[Ty_Handke_83]

I'm curious what the bolded words mean in this context. Let's say on the final lap a car is bump drafted past another resulting in a change of final position, is that legal?

Does the shift protector count as 'bodywork'?

I'd like to think it means no bump and run (chrome horn) type contact... can you really argue that going a couple mph faster be considered 'erratic' behaviour?

[Hardingfv32]

'...results in a change in position'

I got the impression listening to the Chief Steward that in his mind he is talking about bumping the car out of position to help facilitate a successful pass of that car... not a bump drafting pair etc. making a pass without contact to other cars.

Regardless of what or how it is written... this Chief Steward is using a traditional interpretation of bump drafting. It will get you no where arguing with the judge in this case.

Brian

[R. Pare]

I'm curious what the bolded words mean in this context. Let's say on the final lap a car is bump drafted past another resulting in a change of final position, is that legal?

No ambiguity - BOTH have to happen to not be legal. In the Club, the word "and" means that the conditions before and after the "and" have to be present.

What they don't want is to see the trailing car bump the leading car hard enough to make him squirrely, making him slow down enough to let the trailing car make a pass.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

No ambiguity - BOTH have to happen to not be legal. In the Club, the word "and" means that the conditions before and after the "and" have to be present.

What they don't want is to see the trailing car bump the leading car hard enough to make him squirrely, making him slow down enough to let the trailing car make a pass.

Well that's as clear as mud.....

[Agitator]

Back to the topic at hand:

No real change in position on the grid today. Rained last night and track was green.

Some things I saw/heard today:

Varacins may not be on the pole, but he is consistently 1/2 second faster than anyone through the infield according to the timing sector data.

Haven't confirmed, but heard that 126mph was the fastest through the speed trap.

Weisheit, Isley, Shields, and Edwards have all changed at least one engine since Monday. Rumor is Shields has blown two. Drivers seeing about 6700 down the front stretch.

Laura Hayes broke a trailing arm this morning and only got 3 laps in.

Tomorrow's fourth (and final) qualifier has the usual Florida 40% chance of thunderstorms. It was windy much of today.

[Matt King]

No ambiguity - BOTH have to happen to not be legal. In the Club, the word "and" means that the conditions before and after the "and" have to be present.

What they don't want is to see the trailing car bump the leading car hard enough to make him squirrely, making him slow down enough to let the trailing car make a pass.

I guess it comes down to the interpretation of "erratic behavior." If a FV all of a sudden going 5 mph faster and passing another car is "erratic" then both conditions would be present.

[BLS]

James, thanks for the update.

[B Farnham]

It'll be interesting to see how many drop out of the race due to engine issues. Rumor was that you had to run a long box due to the straights but with the newer valve springs and big manifolds I'm sure some are running a short box. Trap speeds are interesting to look at as you go down the list.

Wonder if some have used up all of their strong motors already.

[G.B.]

Is Roger wondering why everyone's going the wrong way?

[Hardingfv32]

I would say the 6700 quoted about was in a bump draft or a tail wind situation. Of coarse with a tail wind you paid a penalty somewhere else.
6500 is about average max rpm with no wind.

A short box is going to add 400 rpm to that. With the best manifolds on a great engine using a top end biased exhaust system... power starts down the hp curve at 6400. I am not sure that the valve springs change anything as valve float was always controllable at high rpms if desired.

So with a short box you would be well on your way down the hp curve when you pulled out of a draft. You would go nowhere. With a short box you would be a little faster in the interior but there is still 2/3s of a lap for everyone to get a big tow off you and make a pass. Defiantly not the setup for the race.

Chances are that the best motors went in this afternoon. See how they compare Thursday with what they used Tues and Wed... then make the choice for the race.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

4TH 4TH ALT
0.89 0.82
6864 6324

That is what I am getting from my spreadsheet at 125 mph.

at 120 it changes to

4TH 4TH ALT
0.89 0.82
6589 6071

Might explain why guys are so fast in infield and slow on banking and vice versa.

I am also guessing that if you don't have a drafting partner (or two), it might be a lonely race - unless the others all blow their engines......

Chris Z

[Bruce Livermore]

It's very interesting to look through the "Time Cards" for each day's qualifying. Look at the "Time of Day" listings and you can see who crosses the line when. It's hard to interpret because it's not formatted to be read that way, but there's lots there if you spend the time.
Looking as successive laps tells who's just ahead starting the lap and how many are in that pack, etc.

It explains the 126 mph speed the first day (a 2 car draft following a 5 car pack) and pretty much explains each good lap anyone has.

Since it also lists every lap time for everyone, it kind of hints at who is really strong. For instance, Mike V. had three laps in the mid to low 21's today that would have moved him into second. No-one else was in the 21's. Will it matter in the race where he can't intentionally back up to set up a good lap? Who knows...

Here's today's Card

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1443020627

[Tiago Santos]

Interesting indeed! Just had a quick look.. If someone strings the perfect lap together with a bunch of tows, we should be seeing mid 2:20s at some point, if the weather holds up. Crazy to look at the last sector times, Varacins had a really fast sector at one point in a group of 5 or 6 cars. It'll be a fun race to watch, really crossing my fingers that it stays clean for the most part.

[problemchild]

Top positions unchanged in final Q session.

[Agitator]

Today's synopsis:

Not much change in the order, but the big mover was Weisheit. He had some aggressive pushing partners (sorry, I don't know who was with him), got a huge lap, and moved into the top 5. Lost his rain light from contact. Claimed to hit 7000rpms at least twice during the session. His little group were the only ones really on each other's gearbox down the front stretch.

Kittel and Davis came together at bus stop and put a hole in Davis' valve cover (according to a corner worker, Davis got airborne and it looked like it could have been ugly, but he kept it together) and soon lost his engine.

I have not looked at the timing, but Shields looked to have it together after rumored multiple engine issues.

Isley lost his second engine of the week, and may be done for the weekend.

Varacins is on another level (again). He clearly made an effort to get the pole, running hot laps, then backing off and running through packs like a hot knife through butter. He got close, but Siebenaler will retain pole position. No one is running consistent laps like Varacins.

While everyone is talking about top end and drafting partners, the data is showing that only a few drivers are below 1:15 through the infield sector. Shields seems to be the only one that has been close to Varacins in that department.

Pole sitter Siebenaler's 125.9mph was the fastest recorded top speed today.

[Matt King]

Should be a great race. I'll bet Mike V.'s strategy will be to try to break away solo and open a gap, but at Daytona it's tough to keep the drafting packs at bay behind you no matter how much they get in each others way.

[Hardingfv32]

While everyone is talking about top end and drafting partners, the data is showing that only a few drivers are below 1:15 through the infield sector.

But what value is that for the race? The interior is the first third of the lap. There is still 75 sec with the engine flat out to recover any lost ground. It is not that easy to pass in the interior with the kink in the middle of the short straight. You can be a little off pace and still hold your position. If you do loose a position you draft back before the Bus Stop.

Better to trim the car out... give up some interior section performance for straight-line speed.

Brian

[veeracer98]

Too bad there are only 30 cars. I was going to go until I added all the expenses plus a week off work for my crew. Why the h does it need to have 4 qualifying sessions? Seems like two would be enough and cut out 2 days off work.

[Hardingfv32]

Why the h does it need to have 4 qualifying sessions? Seems like two would be enough and cut out 2 days off work.

One long week is the tradition. It is more social than racing for the majority involved.

Think of the 4 Qual as just sessions. You want something for your money don't you?

Brian