FF costs

[Purple Frog]

Folks, a side-by-side engine test is never going to happen. You aren't going to get two top engines at the same dyno facility on the same day with Club staff as witnesses.
#1 it would cost a ton and the Club has no budget for it.
#2 How would the testers know they have a good example? If a builder knew the engine they were building was for the test, how could you know it has all the massaging the same builder would give to a favored customer?
#3 Where you going to get an independent dyno with mounting plates/headers/etc for both engines and operator?

So... it ain't going to happen.

It's best to move forward as Greg stated in post #117 .

[Steve Bamford]

Folks, a side-by-side engine test is never going to happen. You aren't going to get two top engines at the same dyno facility on the same day with Club staff as witnesses.
#1 it would cost a ton and the Club has no budget for it.
#2 How would the testers know they have a good example? If a builder knew the engine they were building was for the test, how could you know it has all the massaging the same builder would give to a favored customer?
#3 Where you going to get an independent dyno with mounting plates/headers/etc for both engines and operator?

So... it ain't going to happen.

It's best to move forward as Greg stated in post #117 .

But before hand I have one last rant.

I guess I simply have a hard time dealing with people telling me that this can not be done. I guess I come from a different mindset that if you want to get information as something as simple as this there should not be so many barriers. I guess I simply want the individuals who make the rules be responsible to show they have processes in place to continue to ensure things are stable. We are really making excuses why this can not be done, at least that is what I see.

I always try to take "excuses" out of the equation when it comes to most things in life. I have been fortunate in many respects that I can afford to race & have a team that works their ass off to give me a top level prepared car. I want the limiting factor in my racing results to be the driver so I burden all the responsibilities as the driver for my results and not the car. I simply don't know conclusively if the two different engines are equal. I am not saying they aren't either, I simply want someone to show me on the dyno.

As to who's engines to use to use to compare, it is pretty simple to figure out & many people play dumb as we all know a number of good engines to compare with.

After all that said I am done. Moving on now. Looking forward to another fun filled weekend at Mid Ohio in a few weeks racing with 20 plus F1600 cars. Hope to see more but will enjoy it either way.

[J Weida]

Other series use a chassie dyno at the track .

[swiftdrivr]

"$3500 kents should be slower than $15K Hondas"
Part of the problem is that, when being sold to the membership, Hondas were not $15,000, they were something you could buy with "the money an average family would save from Obamacare": $2,500. They were also supposed to be "equal to a good Kent,", not superior to all but the best Kents. That being said, I still think the Honda [well, Honda's cash and promotion ] has been overall good for the class. I doubt even Solomon could make both sides happy, but a member financed re-evaluation isn't going to make things worse. I am by no means sure it would make things any better either, but it might. Surely won't be an easy task, though

[swiftdrivr]

okay, one other thought on the subject. If it is true that there were / are 5-6 Kents that are better than the rest, isn't it better to have a couple of dozen more equally powerful engines, to spread out the chances to win among more competitors? Is it better for the class if the Honda IS made equal to the best Kents?

[problemchild]

"$3500 kents should be slower than $15K Hondas"
Part of the problem is that, when being sold to the membership, Hondas were not $15,000, they were something you could buy with "the money an average family would save from Obamacare": $2,500. They were also supposed to be "equal to a good Kent,", not superior to all but the best Kents. That being said, I still think the Honda [well, Honda's cash and promotion ] has been overall good for the class. I doubt even Solomon could make both sides happy, but a member financed re-evaluation isn't going to make things worse. I am by no means sure it would make things any better either, but it might. Surely won't be an easy task, though

I am not arguing your point but clarifying mine. Mike was calling it a $20K Honda engine. It is a $10K engine IMO. If you build a car, it will cost you about $10K to buy a race-prepared Honda engine to but in it. I averaged the numbers for the $15K value I used in my earlier post. I also used $15K as an extreme value for people building kents. Of course, a new kent would cost more than a new Honda, but most of the guys running very good kents are rebuilding/maintaining/updating, not buying new. HPD pricing has gone up less than $1k in the 6-7 years since conception. I don't know what you think you were "sold", but I explored pricing from the announcement, and it really has not changed significantly.

[reidhazelton]

Throwing it out there....

After talking with a few people at the Sprints, it seems to me it's time we all just bit the bullet here and move on.

Here is how I see it. There are a lot of older cars that are not worth converting to a Honda. There and also a fair amount of older cars that cannot be cheaply, or easily converted to run the radial tire (3* neg camber, front roll centers/ride height) that seems to be coming. I own a car that falls in both the categories.

With that, perhaps we are just at a point in time where we need to make the hard call and just move forward and let the older cars go to vintage. The older cars are already parked, and they are not coming back. Adopt the radial, and uncork the Hondas and let them be the new wave of the class. That would end all this parity crap that we knew would happen.

Personally, with the Fit at 140hp or so it would make the cars a whole lot of fun and offset the weight of the radial. To me, 140hp would make it a lot more attractive to potential racers. That would also give us a distinct speed difference between F500/F600.

We can only hold on to the older cars so long, and at some point they will go away.

-RH
(Guy with and older car that needs to go away)

[swiftdrivr]

Old guy, old car, don't want to go away, can't afford to upgrade [not going to be able to race long enough to make it pay] I hope the tire chosen doesn't obsolete my DB-1, or anyone else's car. That would be a really incredibly poor choice of a spec tire, and undo all the good a spec tire might provide.
And, FWIW, isn't the significant speed difference within a group one of the main safety issues and complaints about mixed run groups?

[SEComposites]

Throwing it out there....

After talking with a few people at the Sprints, it seems to me it's time we all just bit the bullet here and move on.

Here is how I see it. There are a lot of older cars that are not worth converting to a Honda. There and also a fair amount of older cars that cannot be cheaply, or easily converted to run the radial tire (3* neg camber, front roll centers/ride height) that seems to be coming. I own a car that falls in both the categories.

With that, perhaps we are just at a point in time where we need to make the hard call and just move forward and let the older cars go to vintage. The older cars are already parked, and they are not coming back. Adopt the radial, and uncork the Hondas and let them be the new wave of the class. That would end all this parity crap that we knew would happen.

Personally, with the Fit at 140hp or so it would make the cars a whole lot of fun and offset the weight of the radial. To me, 140hp would make it a lot more attractive to potential racers. That would also give us a distinct speed difference between F500/F600.

We can only hold on to the older cars so long, and at some point they will go away.

-RH
(Guy with and older car that needs to go away)

Bingo!