Indycar is just amazing.

[Brian Graham]

BB is back, are you kidding? One poor decision after another, while the MRTI works so hard to improve and build, the series they all aspire to continues to consistently make the worst decisions possible. Can't wait to see what the next inspired move will be. Painful to watch what is possibly the best racing in the world get f'd up so badly.

Brian.

[Ty_Handke_83]

What makes it even better is the fact that he now has other guys "making decisions" who he can throw under the bus when things go wrong.

[Steve Demeter]

When I worked for T&S at the 500, my boss quit because he had to sit in the race control booth and BB was such a jerkwad he could not stand it any longer.

Yes the fact that he is back is truly amazing.

Who would restart a race in the rain when everyone is on slicks??? BB

[Rick Kirchner]

Steve when did you work at the 500?

[ianashdown]

BB is back, are you kidding? One poor decision after another, while the MRTI works so hard to improve and build, the series they all aspire to continues to consistently make the worst decisions possible. Can't wait to see what the next inspired move will be. Painful to watch what is possibly the best racing in the world get f'd up so badly.

Brian.

I think you must have meant to say "WAS possibly the best racing series in the world . . "

but that was long time ago!

Ian

[marshall9]

I still like IRL. It's no CART, but still cool.

[Steve Demeter]

Steve when did you work at the 500?

Rick,

1982 to 1999.

[problemchild]

It only gets better. With less than 6 weeks to go, Brazil just cancelled.

[Brian Graham]

So now even a shorter season.........fantastic. What's next?

[allof6]

It only gets better. With less than 6 weeks to go, Brazil just cancelled.

They found out Brian was back in charge!

[Michael Edick]

cue the clown car....

what's next? Tony George will come back to run the series?

[Michael Edick]

And...

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

IMHO, the golden era was with independent chassis and engine builders. I believe it spurred keen competition before the cars ever reached the track.

Carl Haas was a HUGE player in the series from its incipience, and can still impart some will and wisdom should he choose. That he has bought Lola out of receivership, maybe there is some method in his madness. Just a thought.

V/r

Iverson

[RSS]

[Robins Ken]

Back in the day..................

PT. Oz. 2002

[Michael Edick]

just another day at the office for PT.

Great shot!

[dalz]

IMHO, the golden era was with independent chassis and engine builders. I believe it spurred keen competition before the cars ever reached the track.

Carl Haas was a HUGE player in the series from its incipience, and can still impart some will and wisdom should he choose.

Carl Haas was on the CART rules committee. Carl Haas made sure the rules were changed juuuuuust enough every year so that a year-old car was useless and you had to buy a new Lola from Carl Haas. Not to mention one Mr. Penske owning 51% of the best engine builder, playing a god who gave the best fruits to the chosen teams, would Team Penske be on that list?

People can wail about Tony George all they want, but the principals who were riding high back in the day did NOTHING to sustain it in good faith. This is what happens to pro racing series without a Bill France Sr. or Wally Parks. It's been the foxes guarding the henhouse for almost a half-century. This is why they're to the point of scheduling races in 3rd-world parking lots and praying the cash comes through and the dictat--uh...president they conned for a multiyear contract doesn't get voted out or shot. A sad state to a dying niche of a dying sport.

[ianashdown]

Whilst I'll have to disagree on the level of manipulation that went on within CART, there certainly was some, all parties had a priority to keep CART flourishing. I was part of the CART technical committee meetings for a while and the tone was always what was good for the sport first, with everyone giving their best slant, but everything was voted on democratically. In the end I'd have to say Haas, Penske, Ganassi etc, even with their own agendas, were still preferable to Forrest Gump running the asylum!

Ian

[Rick Kirchner]

great article in Race Tech several years back about how the way CART ran things was rotten to the core and would have collapsed regardless of Tony's attempted takeover of the sport.

While Ian may have fond memories of those days, Frasco, Craig, and the majority of those little hitlers were a pox on the sport and I can't recall a single positive thing that was a result of their "leadership".

[ianashdown]

Except the racing!

Speaking of little Hitlers - Calling Mr E? . . .

[dalz]

Well if the CART bosses acted for the better of the sport they didn't act nearly enough. How did it turn out? Such was their house of cards that TG's ham-fisted coup should've been averted by sponsors, promoters, suppliers, etc if they cared enough. They didn't.

Some of this demise was inevitable. Motorsports will never again hold the pop-culture clout it had in the '80s-early '90s. Danny Sullivan became an instant celebrity winning the Indy 500--at age 35! What did winning America's biggest race do for Trevor Bayne?

Inept (corrupt?) leadership in a struggling sport leads to....

[dalz]

Speaking of little Hitlers - Calling Mr E? . . .

Bernie has made F1 a stable, healthy sport with many entities happily spending and making tens of millions under his totalitarian leadership. When you hear stories about how F1 was run in the '70s, you can only deduce that it would be in the same shape as Indycar without him. He is where he is because nobody was smart enough or foward-thinking enough to stop him.

[ianashdown]

I have to agree with all that you've just said. They should have saved it, certainly there was the business smarts amongst them to make it work, must have been a lack of motivation to do it somehow. This is still the biggest crime in recent American motor sport.

I don't blame Tony for believing he was protecting his business interests, but there is no doubt that the combination of event was devastating to US open wheel motorsports. And I do believe that societal/economic forces were working against CART's survival too.

Ian

[allof6]

At the end of the day they found out they needed the Indy 500 and couldn't get it. So the money guys left.

Thats all I got to say about that.

[Lotus7]

Back in the day..................

PT. Oz. 2002

Ken, now THIS is "back in the day" LOL

[Neil_Roberts]

After the IRL split, being in the CART series was like being in the other horse racing series that can't participate in the Kentucky Derby. I don't know anything about horse racing, but I know that name. For most racing fans, it's just like that regarding the Indy 500. So, CART's demise was inevitable. It lasted about 5 years longer than it should have, largely because of the IPO scam.

Haas was very obviously a ruthless profiteer. Negotiating with him was like sharing your sandwich with an alligator. Despite that, it wasn't rules changes that obsoleted the cars every year. It was open competition, primarily Penske's cars.

Speaking of Penske, when he left for IRL, there was such an obvious leadership vacuum that it dramatically changed the nature of the series.

None of this is new, of course. If SCCA knew how to run a pro series, F5000 would have become what Indycar is today and Can Am would be what TUSCC is today.

[ianashdown]

I think Neil hit on an interesting idea. F5000. What would F5000 for 2015 look like? Without being retro, and without all the negatives of excessive driver aids etc, limited aero but all the modern safety. It could be made into something really cool!

Big, loud, fast and proud!

Ian

[Lotus7]

What would F5000 for 2015 look like?

As I recall, someone tried to do just that lately didnt they, a retro-look, reasonably modern safety version of the cars?

[allof6]

http://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/01...e-daytona.html

[dalz]

If you wanted to do modern F5000 as low-cost tube-frame, it would be an overweight tank, and probably still not up to modern safety standards for a full-size 500+hp OW car. If you went CF tub, it's not really cost-contained.

Hard to believe that once SCCA and USAC (Indycar) waged a fierce battle for pro US racing supremacy. USAC even tried to invade SCCA's turf with a foray into road racing. Check YouTube for a thoroughly bitchin' 1970 Indycar race from Sonoma.

[Jnovak]

If you wanted to do modern F5000 as low-cost tube-frame, it would be an overweight tank, and probably still not up to modern safety standards for a full-size 500+hp OW car. If you went CF tub, it's not really cost-contained.

Hard to believe that once SCCA and USAC (Indycar) waged a fierce battle for pro US racing supremacy. USAC even tried to invade SCCA's turf with a foray into road racing. Check YouTube for a thoroughly bitchin' 1970 Indycar race from Sonoma.

I weighed an indycar tub about 10 years ago. It was almost 2 hundred lbs. I was shocked, I thought it was going to be something super light, not.

I have no doubt that you could build a steel or aluminum tub that would be strong enough for that weight.

Now I know that the carbon tubs are the safest thing around but super light weight, not.

Now that was a long time ago so perhaps they are much lighter now.

Out of curiosity does anyone have some numbers?

[dalz]

A new F5000 has been bandied about on various forums by various dreamers, and the consensus is you'd end up with something like OW Shelby Can-Am. (blechh) Tubeframe OW was done with the Alderson short-track rear engine car, which was sold to Driving 101 and Andretti Experience, and may still exist somewhere. After being a dreamer I now just don't think it's viable. Not safe enough for the money you could just spend on a CF tub.

[nulrich]

Last time I heard real numbers, an F1 tub was about 150 lbs. But it's MUCH stronger than an IndyCar tub, especially in a couple of key areas (cockpit rim, roll hoop). The safety regulations get more stringent every year.

Dallara is in the business of making money, not producing the lightest parts. Some of their composite parts are really crude, and any part they make will be much heavier than an F1 equivalent. The benefit of a monopoly.

I don't believe you could build a tube frame car that could meet any modern high level safety standard and get it near as light as a composite monocoque. A tube frame would need composite panels for penetration resistance, crush structures to absorb energy, and by the time you add all that you might as well build a carbon tub.

I'm most familiar with the 2014 F1 safety regulations, and I'd estimate that meeting that standard with steel structure and added composite panels would put you up over 300 lbs. You'd end up with something like a DP chassis, I guess. :/

All that said, what's wrong with a carbon tub? It doesn't have to be expensive, and the appeal of Formula 5000 had nothing to do with the material of the chassis! I guess Superleaque Formula is the closest modern equivalent.

Nathan

[allof6]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117528

[Rick Kirchner]

A tube frame indy car today would be a west-coast supermodified

[Jnovak]

Here is a simple Indy rules concept

Common carbon tub really stout for safety.

Obviously a modestly light minimum weight to keep costs down.

4L or normally aspirated V8. This should be able to make at least 800hp and the sound!!!

big tires, lots of mechanical grip defined width
Get more than 1 tire company involved with a spec weight for each tire for saftey.

Limited aero with defined wing sizes and VERY limited underbody Df
Lots of Df simply ruins the actual racing. The cars look too complicated and are getting uglier every year.
Put the driving in the drivers control.
More Df = LESS RACING
All of the aero trickery is making the cars uglier every year.

That's just a concept, of course lots more detail required. There is no need for the cars to cost millions of $$.
I just want some great and safe racing.

[JerryH]

I think a modern F5000 could be built (even in small quantities) for 100 to 150 tho.....IF we used production engines with limited mods, a spec carbon tub, spec brake package, spec shocks, spec wings, and spec wheels.....total freedom after that.....don't want a spec car. Then any number of people could and would build cars for the series. I bet some of the current FC, FB, FF manufacturers would jump in the game. I think we would be amazed at the variety of cars that would come forth. Look at FV......all spec parts....and yet there are some big differences between some of the cars.

I would even go along with a tube frame.....even it it was heavier and cost as much (with the added crush zones needed). It would give the builders more freedom to create.....and that might bring in more builders.

Indy was big when there were several companies building cars....and several different engines being used. That would be the goal, in my opinion.

It is not an impossible dream.

Jerry

[Jnovak]

I think a modern F5000 could be built (even in small quantities) for 100 to 150 tho.....IF we used production engines with limited mods, a spec carbon tub, spec brake package, spec shocks, spec wings, and spec wheels.....total freedom after that.....don't want a spec car. Then any number of people could and would build cars for the series. I bet some of the current FC, FB, FF manufacturers would jump in the game. I think we would be amazed at the variety of cars that would come forth. Look at FV......all spec parts....and yet there are some big differences between some of the cars.

I would even go along with a tube frame.....even it it was heavier and cost as much (with the added crush zones needed). It would give the builders more freedom to create.....and that might bring in more builders.

Indy was big when there were several companies building cars....and several different engines being used. That would be the goal, in my opinion.

It is not an impossible dream.

Jerry

It would really mean something if car manufacturers supplied engines.

However it is an impossible dream to convince the Indy powers to do this.

[Rick Kirchner]

Jay - your new formula looks a whole lot like the first G-force/Dallara formula after they got rid of the 96 chassis, except for the low downforce. They wanted high downforce for oval safety (easier to drive).

Jerry - the electronics would cost $150K......

A lot of the stuff you are talking about was how the DP guys did it with the first generation car. Hubs, gearbox, drive axles were spec. I think the windshield was too.

Driver skill and increased competition - put the H-box back in and get rid of carbon brakes. That costs $$$ in engines and boxes tho.

The balance of tech and competition has been the hardest thing across all of motorsports, because the purpose of putting tech in the cars is to eliminate the competition with better tech. The only guys who have done a reasonable job with that balance is NASCAR, and now they are having problems too.