One Class Compromise?

[Bill Bonow]

Doug posted this at the end of the FV/FST differences thread:

....couldn't there be a better way to bolster the entire collection of air-cooled VW formula cars by creating a FV12/FV16 class structure like CF/FF that has a better bridge for one to go to the other (meaning the 1200 Vees need to compromise, and the 1600 FSTs need to compromise), and for them to be ONE class instead of angry, splintered factions of racers?

So, I'm game for a civilized discussion.

Here are the basic rules:
1) This are just ideas and means absolutly nothing. Both classes are firmly in the GCR and do not need to do anything. This is pure discussion.
2) No drifting/sliding into "my class is better". In this thread, they are both equal
3) Although attempts may have been made before, no "we've done that" allowed
4) If you think this is a total waste of time, just post that and move on to another thread. Don't drive it home like a railroad spike

I'm guessing that if we see too much of the above basics being broken, this will have to get shut down.

Here is a very simple list of the class differences

1. Wheel base can be up to 2" longer
2. Body length can be 10" longer
3. 1600 engine. Mostly stock , but with allowed aftermarket parts and a FFDA provided restrictor plate and W-110 Cam. Develops about 85HP (100+ lb ft torque)
4. Mandatory stock VW transaxle with long box and 1.26 third gear.
5. 4 Wheel Disc brakes
6. Ball Joint beam with certain allowed mods.
7. Aftermarket wheels (13" x 6") with the Formula Ford Spec tires. (Hoosier R-60A)
8. Weight 1125 (with driver)
9. Rack and Pinion Steering allowed.
10. FIA F3 cockpit opening (no fan shroud rule)

There is certainly more detail, but these 10 should be a place to start.

Is this compromise possible? Technically? Politically? Or is this foolish?

I've added a simple Yes or No poll on if a compromise is plausable

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I would like to see FST and FV pool there promotional efforts and race together in the same run group. I think the two classes can coexist together on the track and provide additional entries that help both classes. Maybe a 4-5 weekend series similar to the FFDA series that runs in the mid west. Maybe this is with SCCA or maybe it is with another organization. That is what we are considering doing on the left coast. Perhaps there could even be a championship type race where everyone can participate.

Otherwise we are stuck running in the formula alphabet class in SCCA which no one likes.

I don't see a technical compromise happening between the two classes.

[nbrigido]

In Ontario the F1600 (FF) run 2 classes, FF-A and FF-B. While I think year of Car determines the classes. Could both cars be on the track at the same time? especially if it was their own grid? Sure don't see why not. 2 Classes 2 championships. Will it work for all regions....

But....The biggest issue I see is cost. We are all fighting to get cars to the track. Converting a one series to another would kill participation. There are a tremendous amounts of FV/F1200 sitting in Shops, Garages, barns...that is just a fact of "years of service". Now you are asking people to buy a car and race as is, or spend the $$$$ to convert? there is still a factor perception to overcome.

Can any Vee be converted to a FST?
How much is a conversion cost?
How much work is involved?

From a compromise standpoint to make something like this work, Honestly would be the name. No disrespect to anyone, but FST is not world wide where Vee is.

What is the Lifespan of the FST package? for years people have been saying that FV/F1200 parts are not available, every year parts show up. So to say FV/F1200 package is dead is wrong.

From a Canadian Standpoint we have a tire package that lasts 2-3 Seasons, as frivolous as that sound to some, with the increasing costs of entry fees, fuel, parts, memberships, it is one thing that we can honestly say has been extremely helpful controlling consumable costs (for us).

I don't know enough about the FST package to say if there is a "middle" ground as for as conversions or rule changes (beyond my pay scale).

To be clear, I would never support, the conversion of an entire class to another.

[dangrace]

This Poll should also be in the FV general discussion area.

[rave motorsports]

I agree with Scott. Everyone is invested financially in their chosen class. New people that are interested aren't just comparing FV to FST. They are also comparing F600, FF and some FC. We chose FST because it fit our budget and long term goals. Leaving them separated gives new racers and seasoned racers choices. I find most people decide their best fit. That being said the main reason I see for a blending the two classes is to have single class track time. In the Midwest you could take both classes make them one and still not have enough cars for a single class race at most tracks however St Louis does let us run with just 4 or 5 cars at a time. We do promote FST heavily here and are gaining momentum with it. One reason it's gaining is stability of rules. That is a huge plus. Keeping it stable is an important factor for us.

Bill Gray
Nuveau Autosport

[Amon]

Bill,

I just don't see it happening unfortunately because drivers from both classes have too much invested in their respective class to bring about compromise. However, with that said, there is
a small glimmer of hope and that's in the FV Challenge Series which are nearly matching the
FST's in tires by using the Canadian tires and rims, which last much longer than FV slicks and rule out the need for rains as well. I know there not the same as the Hoosier r60's but you get the point, so maybe some day the classes could come together but it would take a lot of compromise and less class fighting to get it done.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[G.B.]

Every year the major race car manufactures produce new supposedly faster Formula Fords (Formula F or F1600) and to contest the championship you need the latest and greatest. In order to find a home for older generally uncompetitive cars the B Series exists. But the kudos and glory goes to the A Series Champion and who remembers the B Series Champion?

Formula Vee differs in that older cars remain competitive and very few new cars are produced.

Now if the goal was to replace FV with FST; then run as one class with two divisions, as they did in Australia. The FSTs would become the A Series and take chequered flag, FV would be the also ran B series. As no one remembers the B Series, people would inevitably convert.

But why do we want to convert?


The 2014 Hoosier Racing Tire US Formula First Championship Series
Total number of drivers: 21 at 6 weekends.
Biggest Field: 14 at Mid-Ohio
Smallest Field: 5 Road America
Average Field: 9.

Formula First has all the parts that many people think FV needs to look sexy, a plentiful supply of spares, longer lasting tires and brakes pads cost just $20!

Yet after ten years as an SCCA class and tireless efforts of many former FV stalwarts, the class is just not happening. Why is this?

[Matt King]

Yet after ten years as an SCCA class and tireless efforts of many former FV stalwarts, the class is just not happening. Why is this?

Good question. The only logical reason I can come up with is its lack of National class status. A lot has changed with the SCCA's event structure in recent years, but not being eligible for Majors or the Runoffs must be a factor. Many people starting out may not have their sights set immediately on the Runoffs, but it is nice to know it is an option in the future.

[G.B.]

Is this a chicken and egg situation?

How can you make a case for Run-Offs inclusion, when the biggest grid of the season is just 14 cars?

Where are the cars?

[dc]

No, no, no, no... my original comment was not to make one class to convert all cars to the same spec. Quite the opposite, actually.

What is the argument that FV guys have with FST?
What is the argument that FST guys have with FV?

The answers to those questions contain the solution to the compromises.




This is just spitballing, so bear with me.

Using the CF/FF and CFC/FC as a model, create a hierarchy like FV runs in much of the rest of the world, where the current FV is evolved slightly to bridge the gap to FST, and maybe FST dials it down a bit to meet somewhere closer to an upgraded FV.

What I am seeing in my head is a standardized easily purchased hard compound tire and wheel package on all cars, with catalog-purchasable suspension and braking components for all sub-classes. This is a must. You shouldn't have to own a sand blaster and a spray booth to acquire replacement components to race in any particular class. It's just stupid to argue about how great your drum brake packages are from 1960 and how easy they are to adjust. This is the biggest hang-up for many in the class, and many out the outside looking in. Most people (especially anyone new to racing) will not touch a class that has such weak supply chain. It's ridiculous to assert that there isn't a problem and you can get parts easily. Prove it to me or stop it.

So you have all of these 60 year old wheels, beams and drum brakes—what to do? Vintage FV. Anything made pre-1985 is vintage. Just like FF, the old cars and parts have to go somewhere. Instant market for old parts, nothing goes to waste.

The idea is to standardize the cars a bit so that someone who buys a 1997 Citation can start out in the 1200 class and if they want, can either stay in 1200 or upgrade their car with a new engine/cooling package from an aircooled VW supplier and be in the 1600 class with the same car and very little upgrading. Stepping stone class structure, and FV starts its road to recovery.

Three sub classes, just like in FF—but all Formula Vee—vintage, FV12 and FV16. All the same basic chassis, with an evolution of parts and components along the way up the scale. With this concept, you do exactly what happened in FF, where the Honda is introduced and the Kent/Club market becomes saturated again with usable, affordable parts and engines. Everyone wins, even though there was a lot of struggle and pain to get to that point.




Ideas. You need new ideas. No idea is a bad one.

[Jnovak]

I think it is a very good idea to race both FV and FST in Majors even if they are different classes. Even if FST is not eligible for the Runoffs it will still bring them in. The key element that makes this a valuable change is that the combined race group will have their own race for most events.

I imagine that the Vee community is tired of loosing a lap in nearly every race.

[Amon]

Jay,

We had our own run group at M-O, Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta this year, so while it's
a PITA to run with FF's and Cf's, sometimes we don't have to face that prospect.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[Jnovak]

Jay,

We had our own run group at M-O, Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta this year, so while it's
a PITA to run with FF's and Cf's, sometimes we don't have to face that prospect.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

How many races (percentage) did FV have their own Majors race?

[Amon]

I didn't know we were just talking Majors since you didn't specify, plus Majors don't comprise all of the racing in the SCCA, and FST aren't eligible for them currently.

Mark

[G.B.]

FV is constantly being shot at over spares availability. This might be a stupid question, but where do spares for older Formula Fords come from? Fords such as Hawke, Royale, Chevron, even Reynard, where the original manufacturer is no longer is in business.

[blackhole]

In Ontario the F1600 (FF) run 2 classes, FF-A and FF-B. While I think year of Car determines the classes. Could both cars be on the track at the same time? especially if it was their own grid? Sure don't see why not. 2 Classes 2 championships. Will it work for all regions....

But....The biggest issue I see is cost. We are all fighting to get cars to the track. Converting a one series to another would kill participation. There are a tremendous amounts of FV/F1200 sitting in Shops, Garages, barns...that is just a fact of "years of service". Now you are asking people to buy a car and race as is, or spend the $$$$ to convert? there is still a factor perception to overcome.

Can any Vee be converted to a FST?
How much is a conversion cost?
How much work is involved?

From a compromise standpoint to make something like this work, Honestly would be the name. No disrespect to anyone, but FST is not world wide where Vee is.

What is the Lifespan of the FST package? for years people have been saying that FV/F1200 parts are not available, every year parts show up. So to say FV/F1200 package is dead is wrong.

From a Canadian Standpoint we have a tire package that lasts 2-3 Seasons, as frivolous as that sound to some, with the increasing costs of entry fees, fuel, parts, memberships, it is one thing that we can honestly say has been extremely helpful controlling consumable costs (for us).

I don't know enough about the FST package to say if there is a "middle" ground as for as conversions or rule changes (beyond my pay scale).

To be clear, I would never support, the conversion of an entire class to another.

Your right the name FST is not worldwide. But FST is worldwide. Because it is FV. The rest of the world has moved on from 1200s. They are either running the aircooled 1600 or a watercooled engine. They all have disc brakes, ball joints, inboard shocks alloy wheels. They call it FV. The rest of the world converted 15 years ago. You even said yourself we can't live in the past.

Everywhere else around the world there series has flourished after the conversion.

After talking to a few people last night we are going to loose another 2-3 people by 2016. 2015 will be there last season. They were also saying that if We have to race with Libre next season there not coming out.

Again I understand the cost involved and I am reluctant to change anything also.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I personally would love to participate in the major events in my FST. Even if it is not a Runoffs class. FST would be a perfect fit in the FV/FF/F500 group and would add entry's which benefits everyone.

I know 6 other FST guys on the west coast that would also run the major races if they were offered.

[Steve Bamford]

Your right the name FST is not worldwide. But FST is worldwide. Because it is FV. The rest of the world has moved on from 1200s. They are either running the aircooled 1600 or a watercooled engine. They all have disc brakes, ball joints, inboard shocks alloy wheels. They call it FV. The rest of the world converted 15 years ago. You even said yourself we can't live in the past.

Everywhere else around the world there series has flourished after the conversion.

After talking to a few people last night we are going to loose another 2-3 people by 2016. 2015 will be there last season. They were also saying that if We have to race with Libre next season there not coming out.

Again I understand the cost involved and I am reluctant to change anything also.

Wow, if I was a new racer looking to start and read all of this negativity about losing drivers then I would be looking at other classes quickly. Turn over is part of every class but promoting turn over isn't good.

Back to the thread, my opinion let the classes live or die independent of one another but allow them to run together as often as possible.

[dc]

FV is constantly being shot at over spares availability. This might be a stupid question, but where do spares for older Formula Fords come from? Fords such as Hawke, Royale, Chevron, even Reynard, where the original manufacturer is no longer is in business.

Plenty of manufacturers have stepped up to provide parts that are consistent across all cars (mostly in the Kent engine compartment). The parts like arms, hubs, brakes and everything else on a FF are specific to each brand. Swifts, Reynards, Lolas, Van Diemens and the like all have a support system that has either a long supply of parts or has remanufactured parts as needed. Smaller run cars are left in the owner's hands to rely on people like Pat Prince to remake parts when needed. Hell, even oddballs like Vectors have a replacement supply chain. The benefit with FFs is that there is no restriction what parts can be used on each car, so any aftermarket or re-made component will work when needed. In most cases, the replacements are as good or better than the originals.

The situation is so different in FV where so many pieces of the car came off of a production car and the rules are limited to those exact components, with no other replacements.

[Bill Bonow]

Back to the thread, my opinion let the classes live or die independent of one another but allow them to run together as often as possible.

Steve,

On a regional basis, this has been the status quo for the past 12 years. First as FS and then as FST, but always running together in the same race group. I'd like to point out that the two classes fit together on the track very well.

[Bill Bonow]

I personally would love to participate in the major events in my FST. Even if it is not a Runoffs class. FST would be a perfect fit in the FV/FF/F500 group and would add entry's which benefits everyone.

This seems to be a common wish.

It is a real shame when a major is in my backyard and I would like to attend. The small bore open wheel group is very light in attendance and I have an SCCA compliant car. However, because it is not a Majors class, a car sits in the garage and the host region loses another entry.

Most really don't care about attending Runoffs, they just want access to more local races.

[blackhole]

Wow, if I was a new racer looking to start and read all of this negativity about losing drivers then I would be looking at other classes quickly. Turn over is part of every class but promoting turn over isn't good.

Back to the thread, my opinion let the classes live or die independent of one another but allow them to run together as often as possible.

Not promoting anything like that. This is just what some people were telling me.

If you care so much about this class why are you not racing in it to help support it?

By you leaving the class but continually giving an opinion on it your also showing that this is not a class you want to race in.

What I am promoting would be a unity of FST and FV.

I don't even know why I keep posting here on this topic. It is just a continious pissing match.

[rave motorsports]

From our perspective I don't see the need to be included in the Runoffs as FST. We will be running two Evolution chassis FSTs in 2015. It's our goal to develope the MidWest series and run both cars in the Hoosier Series. Our definition of a "National" class is to compete in our Region and also Nationally against the fastest cars and best drivers from across the Nation in our class, resulting in one national championship. We have that ability right now in FST without all the additional scrutinization and cost of SCCA national. Yes, it needs to grow in size and I believe it will. In my opinion, FST will have division across the country competing regionally and then a National Championship Weekend. Just my opinion but I back it up with $$$$ invested. The stability of FST rules makes it easier. To me it's an individual choice. If someone chooses to invest in FV or FF or F600 let them go down that path. Free market decision. The consumer will vote with their dollar. After 2 seasons promoting our class not one person has told me that going to the "Runoffs" was a deal breaker. Most people just want to know that they will have Regional competition and are sitting waiting, watching car counts before jumping in.

[Steve Bamford]

Not promoting anything like that. This is just what some people were telling me.

If you care so much about this class why are you not racing in it to help support it?

By you leaving the class but continually giving an opinion on it your also showing that this is not a class you want to race in.

What I am promoting would be a unity of FST and FV.

I don't even know why I keep posting here on this topic. It is just a continious pissing match.

Like you and others I want to race where there are bigger grids. I am currently doing that and from your other posts on asking questions about cars you are attempting to do that as well. That doesn't mean I won't race there again and sure want to see there be a class to race in later on. I also still have a few very quick FV's so don't count me out. I believe it is a great place to learn driving skills.

You may take my comments negativily but you need to understand stating publically that you are losing entrants will not help you attract new drivers. You don't see the other series out there stating that, instead they promote their new drivers.

Sorry if you take this wrong way but I don't see stating that as helping the cause which many are working on.

Back to the topic of trying to move FV and FST closer.

[G.B.]

I'd like to point out that the two classes fit together on the track very well.

Bill,

Yes, if you are driving an FST, but have you driven a Vee amongst FSTs, I think you might that I little frustrating.

Guy.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Three sub classes, just like in FF—but all Formula Vee—vintage, FV12 and FV16.

I think it makes perfect sense to rename FST to FV1600

Many people know what a FV is so they would get the concept right away IMO.

Everyone is always asking me "what is a FST" .......... FV 1600 would eliminate that problem.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Bill,

Yes, if you are driving an FST, but have you driven a Vee amongst FSTs, I think you might that I little frustrating.

Guy.

Guy,

No more frustrating then FV's having to deal with slow CF's. Happens all of the time out here. In fact there has been like 5 protests this year alone just because of a CF guy, that can't go as fast as the FV's, thinks he actually racing with the FV's which just creates havoc.

If the FST and FV's could manage to come together and get their own run group this wouldn't happen. Additionally, there are no CF's at Major races which also helps.

[Bill Bonow]

Yes, if you are driving an FST, but have you driven a Vee amongst FSTs, I think you might that I little frustrating.

Guy,

This is true for every class, even within a class. There are slow and fast driver and every variation between. Go race an FC and slow FA guys will be a problem, it's part of racing.

[G.B.]

Scott,
I know exactly what you mean, there is nothing more frustrating than having a poorly driven CF or F500 dicking round in front of you and he thinks he’s doing a fantastic job.
But when you put FST and FV together the FSTs become the CFs as they do not corner as fast, but are faster down the straights.
Guy.

[Bill Bonow]

But when you put FST and FV together the FSTs become the CFs as they do not corner as fast, but are faster down the straights.

Not my results at all.
Are you certain your speaking of the pointy end of the FST's?

[G.B.]

Not the pointy end, but mid pack.

[B Farnham]

I've had the same results with running with FSTs. Most of the time the pointy end cars will be gone but the mid to back of the pack guys fight you like you're racing them for position. They have more tq so its very hard to pass them and get away.

If you had the top national FVs with the top FSTs then I bet there would be problems. The FSTs would tow along the FVs on the straights and hold them up in the corners. I'd rather run with a slow CF or FF because they actually can pull out a decent amount on the straights so you're not all over them over the course of a lap.

[Amon]

I had a CF ruin my race at the Glen 'Fun One" when he decided it was more important to break up my race with another Vee ( Matt Clark) going into turn one than wait and pass heading up to the bus stop. Just another clueless driver who has no awareness of what's going on around him.
It's get's really old racing with other classes and that's why I was happy to have three weekends racing in FV only races with no FF's or Cf's to deal with during the race.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[Bill Bonow]

If you had the top national FVs with the top FSTs then I bet there would be problems.

Great question, with no answer.

It's never happened, so any conclusion would just be a WAG.

I'd love to see it happen just to answer a number of questions (like yours).

[rgu]

Brian

I think there would be no problem with top Vees and top FST's in fact three examples of them running together come to mind but I'll just detail one. A few years ago Doug Seim and Rick Shields, who I'd hope you would consider a top driver, qualified first and second at a Nelson regional. Both drivers are really good there too.

At the start the pre-2010 R60's were pretty slow so for two laps Rick was right there. After that the the hard tires came in and the FST was a whole back straightaway ahead halfway through the race. By the end of the race 3/4 of a lap ahead. I clocked both cars and Doug ran consistent low 13's and Rick was running high 15's.

So at 95% of the courses I'm sure that would be the way it is but the percentage difference might vary. There are some weird things and in discussing computer data with Dave Carr, Vee's are a couple of miles per hour faster at Road America (with short boxes no less and about 7000+rpm) coming down into five.

In the rain nothing beats a vee skinny rain. Wish we could use em.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

If you look at most track records you will find the FST are around 3-4 seconds a lap faster.

[Jnovak]

I am not a FV racer or an FST racer but I have built and owned a Vee and raced against both types of cars.

I am a fan of both classes and i simply do not see a problem with FV and FST racing together. If enough cars are entered the FV/FST race would be just those cars. This has to be a TON better than getting lapped by FF or F500 cars just after the midpoint of the race.

Just my opinion, sorry to intrude.

[Bill Bonow]

There are some weird things and in discussing computer data with Dave Carr, Vee's are a couple of miles per hour faster at Road America (with short boxes no less and about 7000+rpm) coming down into five.

This is the one place I would really like to get a group of top FV's and FST's together and prove out some un-knowns. Best FST time is 2:38.6 while the best FV time is 2:40.9 (it's what I found, don't shoot me if wrong). As RGU pointed out, the FV's seem to have a higher top end (more revs), but FST torque will pull better up the hills. It's still better than 2 seconds delta, but I still think it could be possible for a FV to pop out on an FST if in the right place.

Jay, Opinions are always welcome

[nbrigido]

We got a tie 18-18!!!

[Bill Bonow]

We are 40 posts into this and as Noel pointed out the feelings are 50/50.

With that said, I have not seen one techincal or political idea of how this would happen.

No worries in those areas?