car counts / zero sum game...

[cmaxwell]

Another recent string here touched on discussion of car counts in the FE class. I have some thoughts on the subject, but did not want to hijack the other string with them, hence this new topic.

I am relatively new to racing in FE, but not new to racing. I had been interested in the class back when the price of a new car was +/-$28k, and before a lawsuit put the future of the class in question.

After the litigation was settled, SCCA considered divestiture of Enterprises, and almost immediately after that idea was abandoned, the price of a new FE car jumped significantly. Some would attribute this increase to adverse exchange rate movement, some to inadequate planning and hedging, and some simply to the idea of sourcing a race car for the domestic market in a foreign currency. I mention this only because I believe that this has created a material price disparity between acquiring a used FE and acquiring a new FE. This FX induced spread does not encourage new car investment.

I don’t know exact numbers, but I am fairly certain that the trend of new FE purchases slopes down to the right over its life-to-date. In short, with the new / used price disparity, we are playing a zero sum game, with cars moving around the country, but not so many new cars joining the ranks. Factor in attrition, and the future is easy to predict – unless the dollar sees a massive resurgence the price spread between new and used FE’s will continue to be so large that only (i) overall car count shrinkage, and, (ii) pockets of satisfactory field sizes migrating around the country can be expected.

Pro and semi-pro series are not the answer to increasing car counts. Speaking for myself, I have not bought an FE car and entered this class with intent or desire to ‘move up the ladder’. I bought in for a fun, cost-controlled way to go racing 10-12 weekends a year within a reasonable radius of my home.

I suspect that Enterprises may have missed the chance early on to follow the ‘razor blade model’ with these cars – give away the razors; sell a lot of blades. Instead there may not enough razors/cars in the market to ensure a continuing supply of blades/parts. As an example, my division is to my knowledge, currently without a competent CSR. When I contacted the CSR listed for my division earlier this year to ensure that he would have a particular part available at a Majors race, I received a reply that he would not be at the Majors event as he was supporting a race in another (presumably better attended) division. Understandable, as I was the only FE car at the Majors event, but there is a question of which causes which, between poor support and poor car counts. I am not sure of this, but I had thought that there was a requirement for a CSR to support Majors events in division.

I believe that if Enterprises was a pure business, not affected by the club as a parent company, FE would have been abandoned a long time ago, and further, that if the SCCA’s entry into open wheel cars had been better planned, and not gotten drawn into litigation, an alternate strategy could instead have produced a vibrant and growing class.

In my opinion, the current trajectory will not change itself, and I am not convinced that Enterprises has the willingness, commitment and/or ability to change it either.

All that said. I like driving the car, and I wish I was racing with more guys in my class down here in Texas. Hope I have not offended, but wanted to share my thoughts.

[Kazis31]

Give me some time.
Will come down to COTA give ya run for your money.
FE's are great cars and eventually they will catch on just the way SRF did.
peace..

[rshute]

Can anyone explain what happened with the lawsuit?

[mikey]

I'm not sure what that original post was intended to accomplish, but it probably scared off the last 1 or 2 people even considering buying a new FE. I don't think they've sold any appreciable number of cars in the last 10 years actually. Mine was chassis 86 and it was built in 2003. I think at last count they were still under 130 built.

The car is a fantastic car for the money, both investment and sustainment. The CSR support model naturally is going to be unsustainable if cars don't go racing. And at the same time you're working against the SCCA model as you try to attract new interest into club racing period.

I believe they should drop the CSR business model, open up the parts logistics info and let people source stuff themselves, at least for the off-the-shelf Ford and Mazda parts on the car. Keep in mind FM still draws more interest (car counts) with its older technology and no CSR support.

[S Lathrop]

Take a look at how many different racing classes there are at this exact performance level: FE, FM, FC, F2000 pro, USF2000, maybe FB and now what ever this Honda powered new car is. I think the market for cars at this performance level is finite and not growing.

The second problem unique to spec formula cars is the relative high price just to play. FF and FC built their numbers by having an certain evolution of the technology so good used racing equipment was available at a very significant discount to new cars. You can get a really good, serviceable FC for a lot less than a used FM or FE. Currently there is not much evolution in FC so cars built in the last 10 years are likely as competitive today as when they were new.

The final problem all the competitors face in club racing is the race groupings. Some races have all the formula and sports racers in a single race. This is not fun for anyone, regardless of the car they are in. So now you have a race car but the races are not much fun. I know the FC don't much like racing with FE and FM. I am certain the feelings are mutual. The cars are just enough different that they don't mix very well.

If I was producing 20 to 30 car runs, I possibly could get the cost of a new FC in the $60,000 range instead of the $100,000. All the classes face this same cost issue.

Bottom line, I think all formula car racing classes have similar problems and I don't see any solutions on the horizon.

[skl48]

At least at the races we've been to this in the Cendiv, there have been more FE's than FM's. At least in our region (or the region we primarily race in, as Midiv is pretty dead as far as FE goes) FE is reasonably active. And we have great support from our CSR, One Formula.

[cmaxwell]

I'm not sure what that original post was intended to accomplish....

The intent of the original post was (i) to express some opinions on why, as others have commented, the class is struggling with car counts, (ii) to lay out some of the observations that had led me to form those opinions, (iii) to express a belief that the issue would not solve itself, and, (iv) to perhaps spark some discussion on what might alter the current trajectory in a positive way.

[Kazis31]

Car counts are low because there are very few racers interested to invest in them.
They are not interested in it because there is zero return on investment therefore
no real financial incentive,
regardless how well you do in the racing class.
There is no return on investment because there have been no spectators in club racing in 2 and half decades(and no ,friends ,techs and relatives don't count)
And stop whining and moaning because:
1.SCCA doesn't care (it's a cash register business and does pretty well)
2.Manufactures won't help because in last 15 years new car sales have become very competitive business and profit margins have dropped drastically.(be thankfull for motor packages from Honda ,ford and Mazda.)
3.Don't hold your breath for tire manufacturers incentives either because race tire market is fraction of fraction of fraction of tire marked and it really don't matter in larger picture.
What we do is textbook definition of insanity(and no it's not my way to flatter anyone in some weird way),we repeatedly continue doing the same thing year after year expecting different result.
Answer is very simple:
BRING MONEY TO YOUR LOCAL RACE EVENTS.
Have people attending races,kick back ,have fun, enjoy their weekend.
Learn to be competitive with other forms of entertainment,show people value and charm of open wheel racing(something that got you hooked on it).
Promote open wheel racing thru track guy events and tuner clubs.
Get local auto parts retailers give you hand with promotions.......etc.
If you don't do anything in 15 years time there will be very little to talk about on this forum (except fallen frends discussion)
To make long ,and heard before ,story short i don't mean to insult any one ,but truth
is brutal and as you see it has been knocking on our doors from quite some time.
So i will start weekend business here in my neck of the woods (SO CAL) promoting races and heavily educating people interested in our spec open wheel series.
That's where i see value,it's affordable to larger demographic than big boy racing.
FM.FE.SRF,Formula F 1600,FF2000.
I have tracks interested,support guys and parts guys will assist with information on costs ,technical info ETC.
Very wise and rich man once said if you want something done right ..do it yourself.
Sitting with thumb up the a** will not change things.
If i succeed i will post my results here for all of you guys and may be using same model could help your regions as well.

P.S.
Don't moan,bitch or wait for any hand out from big boys(that's what got us in trouble in first place ,racing and over all.)
DO SOMETHING AND THINGS WILL CHANGE.

[Kazis31]

To address original tread starter:
It is highly naive to expect things to change themselves.
Evolution comes from adapting to change over and over again.
JUST ADAPT.

[cmaxwell]

Hello Maris,

I am not sure that I agree with the apparent premise that most FE cars are purchased for a return on investment. but rather that they more often are an entertainment expense that has a residual/resale value. That said, I concede that some are/were bought and raced as an investment in a potential career, and here a business ROI may be a valid consideration, but I don't believe that is what drives the class.

I think you and I agree on the idea that hope is not a strategy, but I am not sure we are talking about resolution(s) to the same problem.

[skl48]

Concerning car counts- I raced SRF back in the mid 90's and at the Sprints in '94 and '95 we had over 100 cars!! A few years ago we did the Miata Cup races at RA and had nearly 75 cars.

It's the "economy stupid" and car counts are DOWN everywhere. People don't have the disposable income they used to have unfortunately...

[skl48]

I'd still like to know what that lawsuit is that is mentioned above... never heard about that before...

[cmaxwell]

I'd still like to know what that lawsuit is that is mentioned above... never heard about that before...

I would prefer to not step into the role of SCCA / Enterprises historian, and have this discussion turn into a re-hash of history, and or opinions on that water over the dam.

Suffice it to say there was a litigation, and I mentioned it only because I know for certain that it kept me on the sidelines when I was first interested in, and prepared to buy, what was then an FSCCA car.

If others doing due diligence at that time had the same information and felt the same, then I believe that the opportunity to have gotten a lot more cars into the field earlier on, at what was a significantly better price point may have been materially affected.

If the litigation issue itself is of interest to you, there is probably history to be found in SCCA annual reports and other archives. It is mentioned in my post only because it happened, and not to revisit its details.

[mikey]

I'd still like to know what that lawsuit is that is mentioned above... never heard about that before...

I believe this link would provide some information regarding the lawsuit SCCA Enterprises was dealing with at the time FE was being developed/launched.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9838
http://www.findforms.com/single_form...orado_Colorado
http://www.findforms.com/single_form...orado_Colorado

It seems SCCA Enterprises found itself in litigation again for very similar accusations in 2013 from other parties.

http://assets.bizjournals.com/kansas...StueveSCCA.pdf

[mikey]

Maris (Kazis31) post above is spot on. Well said.

[Kazis31]

Bringing good spectator crowds to regional and club racing events is a business model.
Spec classes offer( in most cases)return or close to return of your money on car itself.
When in another classes next model car or new engine package immediately makes previous cars uncompetitive and price drops drastically.
Economy is not gonna get better soon or over night ,so bring whatever disposable income you have to race track model is dead.
To have good funding for club or regional season sponsor money or hefty money prices for podium guys will become necessity.(it's called incentive ,look it up)
To do that spectators(or customers for business savvy folks)will have to attend our events in numbers large enough to make track owners happy,3 best drivers brake even and other drivers have good chance securing LOCAL sponsors money.
Then, if that works consistently, SCCA will pay attention and see reason to help,social media
interest will get generated which will lead to actual media attention ,which in overall will secure reasonable investment in advertising value for sponsors,or even if driver is self sponsored business owner for extra revenue to his business.
Am i really speaking Chinese here or you guys just playing me.It's simple math.
And for record in my original post i never called anyone stupid ,so let's keep this discussion clean.
(I 've seen what happens when Doug gets upset)
And most importantly we have to get thru our thick gear head minds that good old days
are not coming back and for spectator racing is an entertainment form and as an entertainment business model we should learn and adapt to compete with other forms of entertainment in same marked segment.
Being ignorant ,stubborn or cocky will not sell and only will turn spectator to other forms of entertainment.(like big buys have done with champ cars,Atlantics etc should i go on?)
Like i said in original tread this isn't another form of educated take on fancy bitching about status quo.
I will do my best to change things in the way i see things can and need to be done locally.
And when i succeeded SCCA will raise it s head and sponsors will see value in spending little money for regional guys because there is going to be sport exposure and social visibility.
Then you can judge me and drop your opinions .
Meanwhile let's just wait and see how i do regionally.
You will probably see me at Runoffs and can come up and talk to me if there is anything you wish to share or hear my full business model.
So remember my and my company name ,so you accidentally don't roll over wrong guy at the Runoffs.Just kidding.
Laughter is the best medicine.
When you talk about current racing situation you get depressed ,then depress me and others, and that's just not race car driver worthy behavior.
We suppose to be gladiators riding our steel horses thru fire infested dangers of race track.
At least that's how i would like to see it .
Try it ,inspiration is more contagious than depression.(f*** prozac)