.... sorry for the sidways but I am please to see that after her VIR shunt last year, Caitlin Johnston is back on form and currenty running 4th in points in Group "A" in the Toyo F1600 Championship -- WELL DONE !!!!
.... sorry for the sidways but I am please to see that after her VIR shunt last year, Caitlin Johnston is back on form and currenty running 4th in points in Group "A" in the Toyo F1600 Championship -- WELL DONE !!!!
EJ
I didn't know tires cost$
I am concerned that our usual old plan of begging for cast offs next to the tire mfg truck at the end of the weekend will be emasculated if there is a switch to hard tires - my opinion of what the tire rule should be will adversly affect our interests ... BUT better for the class - ".... the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few ... or the one"
I would run whatever we were told to without any issues.
In the US Pro Series we are limited to 6 tires for 4 sessions once qualifying starts. Fast times this year in qualifying all seem to be set on the last laps so we are using all our alloted time for each session.
In the Canadian F1600 Series the Toyo is the spec tire & will get at least a few weekends out of a set. A little different to drive on them but it doesn't take too long to adjust for them.
Racing against others who have to have the same tires helps at least me know that I am on the same playing field tire wise. If we were running SCCA Majors there is no doubt I would likely be spending more money on tires for a weekend then in the US Pro Series or the Canadian series.
As I said from the start of my post, I would run whatever we were told to run & have fun doing it. The less expensive the better as long as it is equal for everyone.
Steve Bamford
If something radically different were to be adopted by any of the sanctioning groups (i.e. street radials) I would want to confirm that this would not have a negative impact upon any of the existing fleet of cars - that they are all capable of dialing in appropriate amounts of camber, caster and the like. While it may be reasonable to mount and run the tires on a car this does not necessarily mean that they can be run effectively. For instance, when I moved to the radial for the pro series it required significant changes to existing suspension to accomodate the cambers.
Also, as has been pionted out, don't doubt for a moment that tire prep won't become a major factor. You need to provide in any such rules proposal that the tires cannot be cut or shaved or if they can be to what degree. What about tire softeners? Can that be policed effectively? Be cautious about what you ask for...you might get it!
John,
Our car, Chastain, Exclusive as examples all run or have run both series & have all won in both series. We can have a no shaving tire rule established if it is needed.
I am up for whatever I am told we can run on. If it is open leaves me with many more options & likely will cost me more while wondering if I had of put that new set of tires on how much better I could have done. With spec rules those thoughts start to disappear.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 07.30.14 at 1:53 PM.
Steve Bamford
Steve - yes, I did not suspect that the newer cars, especially those from Au or the UK would have any issues. I would have greater concerns with the older cars. Out of curiosity what are the camber ranges for the tires used in CN and/or other street radials?
I also ran a 93 VD and a DB-6 on the street tires earlier on along with running them on the US Pro Series spec tires. it wasn't a big issue.
I am sure someone can chime in with the camber info you are looking for that would be more exact then what I could add.
Steve Bamford
The Toyos, as run in Ontario/Quebec and a few US areas, require about double the camber of the Hoosier F1600 tires ..... for a total of between 1 and 2 degrees. Much like the Hoosiers, more camber just wears them out faster.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
If you're going to try to refute my points try actually quoting them in full. I wasn't talking about "other markets running slicks." I was talking about the overall availability for 13" DOT tires relative to the rest of the tire market.
There's vastly more production cars running around race tracks & parking lots on a daily basis than there are purpose-built ones: you've got not just the road racers & autocrossers but there's people doing track days as well. Even if you want to limit it to just racing, take a look at SCCA's participation numbers: SM & STL are the dominant DOT-tired classes, and in NASA and other organizations the makeup is similar in their wheel to wheel groups.
The production-racing market is always driven by what the car manufacturers produce, and since the 1990's fewer & fewer production models come with 13 or 14" tires stock, and small-size alloy wheels are becoming increasingly hard to find in the aftermarket because of it. For that reason they changed the wheel rule in Imporoved Touring because the market changed and 13" alloys became ridiculously more difficult & expensive to acquire.
The tire market has followed suit.
Of the 7 manufactuers I can think of that sell DOT race tires in North America (Pirelli, Yokohama, Kumho, Hoosier, Toyo, Hankook, & BFGoodrich), two don't make 13" tires at all (Pirelli only makes 17 & 18" tires), and only two make tires that are proper size range for FF.
Compared to all the SM's, STL's, IT cars, B Spec Cars, various NASA production classes, etc. ALL open-wheel & sports racer cars are very much a niche market. And that's before you get into all the autocrossers & track day people, who lately are vastly outnumbering wheel-to-wheel racers. That's the source of the "niche market" remark with regards to tires.
Why bother to quote me if you're not going to bother to address anything I actually said? When did I say I was happy with the status quo?
Did you miss the part where I said:
I'll say it again, in all caps so maybe it will get through to you: I AM BASICALLY FOR THIS IDEA. MY QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS ARE TO MAKE SURE IT IS IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY.Originally Posted by me
You seem to think that simply going with this tire rule will fix the decline in entries, I'm saying that from personal experience it doesn't always happen that way. To re-iterate somewhat more briefly:
1) My primary reservation is the long-term availability of DOT tires in the sizes we use. DOT tires aren't cheaper than slicks because they contain less material or they're markedly easier to make (in some respects, they're more difficult). They are cheaper because they sell vastly larger quantities of them and they can spread their R&D and tooling costs across a larger customer base. If a year or two or five down the road the only people buying 13" 185's & 205's are the FF guys, the costs will rise to the point where they will cost just as much as the slicks.
2) Since most of us here are racing in the SCCA sandbox, and since contrary to popular belief SCCA is member driven, I posed the question as to whether or not enough of the membership is for changing the tire rule, and if so, what changes they'd want. I'd like to try polling FF competitors because then whatever we go to the comp. board with will have a much more likely chance of passing.
3) I was pointing out a variety of potential pitfalls to avoid that I have seen in the past. This is why I suggested a tire limiting rule as well as whatever we decide to do with tires in general. The rich idiots will still buy new tires every weekend or session whether they need it or not. If they happen to be talented rich idiots then the perception is that you have to constantly buy new tires to be competitive and you're back to where we are now.
Other countries have different economic, demographic, and cultural dynamics than the United States. Hell, other parts of the country have different dynamics.
The Canadian F1600 series, for instance, has several events that play in front of major pro series AND are televised.
In Europe people actually show up to watch entry-level formula car racing, hence they can get sponsors from more people than their high school buddies or blackmail victims.
I wouldn't think so, from what I've seen & what's been said here it's nothing that radical.
By comparison, the radial slicks used in pro F2000 require some really crazy amounts of camber compared to the bias plys.
The best solution is to limit the number of tires across the board. It's much easier to police, and the mad scientists can't go too far if they do still play their games given how long the tires need to last.
So, here's what I'd like to do:
First off, I'd like to try at least a semi-scientific poll of competitors to see what the consensus is. Feel free to either message me, print up some copies to take to the next race you go to, etc. I will need actual names to avoid re-peat countings of results. Let's set a deadline of August 15 for replies to get counted. Feel free to e-mail it to people as well and try to get the results to me ASAP. Feel equally free to recommend different phrasing, or to tell me I'm nuts.
Secondly, I say the next step is to start the rule-changing process as quickly as possible. Once we figure out what we want I say we start writing letters to the comp board and otherwise (politely) annoying various race officials.
Thirdly, who's for having a DOT-tired FF grudge race at the ARRC at Road Atlanta this year?
Survey for Proposed Tire Rule Change in Formula F
A number of competitors in Formula F have expressed interest in changing the tire rules in the class in order to reduce costs. This survey is to try to determine which option is most popular with Formula F competitors. This survey is open to active FF competitors only. Please include a name and what car you run or typically prepare for others. Your name will not be publicly released and is only to avoid repeat results.
Some of the ideas proposed include:
- Limiting the number of tires allowed for qualifying & race sessions in a given weekend, similar to what is done in various pro series, as well as FM and FE in club racing.
- Going to a spec, hard-compound slick such as the F1600 pro series tire.
- Going to DOT tires, such as the Hoosier R6 or Toyo Proxes R888. The Toyo has been used for several years in the Canadian pro FF series. There is the option of an "open" rule (you can pick any manufactuer) or a spec DOT tire.
Please pick only ONE option for each question.
A) What type of tire would you like to run in the future in Formula F?
- No change, I want to run any racing slick that fits.
- Spec Hoosier R45 / Pro F1600 racing slick
- Any DOT tire that fits
- Spec Toyo R888
- Spec Hoosier R6
- Spec Other Tire (specify brand & if it's a DOT or slick)
B) How many new tires should FF competitors be allowed to buy for qualfying & races on a given weekend? Keep in mind that this is for dry tires only and would not include rain or full-tread depth tires for rain races.
- No change to the current rules (unlimited tires)
- No more than 4 tires per weekend
- No more than 6 tires per weekend
- No more than 4 tires per race (this would mean 8 tires for a two-race weekend).
C) If you chose DOT tires as an option in Question A, would you want the minimum weights to be increased to compensate for the heavier tires?
- Yes
- No
Your survey doesn't say specifically if this is for SCCA,
for Majors/Runoffs
for Divisionals
or for other? but I assume for all SCCA races.
I think you typo'd R60 as 6
A treaded DOT tire is a RADICAL CHANGE to things for SCCA.
Going to a hard compound slick (ie my choice of Hoosier R60) is NOT a radical change,
R60 is a real racing slick,
lastly, if you spec a hard enough compound slick, there is no (significant) advantage in new tires, and a "number of tires allowed" or "tire marking" rule is UN-Needed and it would keep me from running my 20+ cycle set for testing/official practice.
FFCoalition.com
Marc Blanc
The intent was for all SCCA club racing in FF (regionals, majors, etc). Ideally I'd like to see the same or at least simlar rule in pro F1600 but that's a whole other can of worms.
R6 was the reference to what I thought was the current DOT compound tire Hoosier makes (at least according to the specs online). Apparently they're up to R7.
One of the options was a spec hard-compound tire (such as the R45 compound which is what they run in the pro series). I hadn't thought about the R60 "club ford" tire, that's not a bad idea either.
Look farther up the thread. They do use DOT tires in other countries in FF, to some success. There's also a series based out of (I think) Arizona that is also pretty successful: http://eformulaford.com/content/race...s-yellow-group
The idea is to try to reduce costs: You're looking at around $970+ for a set of slicks, versus $640 for a set of shaved Toyos that puportedly last longer. Radical, perhaps, but at least according to the feedback here there is some merit to the idea. Also from what I've seen it doesn't require any huge re-engineering of the cars from the people that have switched back & forth.
The idea of the survey would be to see if there's enough interest that it'd be worthwhile to pursue it. As I said before the only people in FF that might be interested in a change may in fact be the ones posting here (and not necessarily the bulk of competitors).
No, it would not. FM & FE have had a similar rule in place since their inception. For instance, the Formula Mazda rule is:
You just have to get the tires marked (they generally do this on grid for qualifying or make you go to impound afterwards). Nothing in the rules says you can't use the tires for another race or another weekend. You just need to show up for the race grid with the appropriately marked set of tires or you forfeit your times. The lower-budget FM guys will have some very cluttered looking sidewalls before they get new tires.14. Tires and Wheels
A. A competitor shall start the race on tires used in a qualifying session
for the race as identified by markings made on the tires by a race
official. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that his
or her tires are appropriately marked prior to, during, or immediately
after a qualifying session.
B. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session, the competitor
may replace that tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief
Steward. Should a tire be replaced for any reason, the competitor
shall forfeit his grid position and start at the back of the grid.
C. Rain tires may be used at any time. In the event that a grid position
is determined by use of a manufactured rain tire (excluding hand
grooved tires), the competitor may elect to start the race on either
the rain tire which was used in qualifying or slicks which are otherwise
compliant.
Pro F1600 uses a declaration form where you record the serial numbers on the tires you're allowed (in their case it's six tires total for two qualifiers & two races). Again there's nothing in there that precludes you from using the same tires more than once (except maybe the extreme amount of track time you get on the pro weekends).
Perhaps I need to re-word things for people who haven't run anything but club racing.
I DO think a tire limit rule is necessary even with a spec compound (or even without one). You'll still the people with more money than sense throwing stickers on the car every other session. If they happen to win races (whether or not the new rubber was responsible) you'll get the perception that you need to get stickers all the time to run up front, and you'll get people leaving the class because of the illusion of extra costs.
For the purpose of lobbying the comp board people who aren't in SCCA now don't matter. If I write a letter to the board, it approves it and puts it in front of the membership for input, these non-members aren't going to be able to participate (or even be aware of what's going on).
Maybe we should matter. Maybe if we mattered, we might come back, seeing a value for our dollar equal to other sanctioning bodies.
I get the point of us not having a voice in the proposal and vote, but am offended by that statement.
That type of elitist attitude just may be why numbers are dwindling.
OK then .... moving forward - lets see if we can get a starting point -
All those in favor of the Competition Board approving a RFP* to GY, Hoosier, Pirelli, Toyo, etc. for a hard compound slick, with the wear characteristics of a R60 Hoosier or GY R600 commencing 2016 ( time to sell existing stock) having side profile, width and overall circumference of the current Hoosier R45 Pro tires pipe in and we'll separate the wheat from the chaff.
Let's see if this post is hot air or a consensus builder ..........
*Note - I understand such a test is occurring in September for SFR - some of the confirmed participants are GY - Hoosier - Toyo - Pirelli - Continental - Yokohama (and there are others - total of nine mfg's !!!)
Here we go...............and yes, I've been drinking......
1. The SCCA will carp and whine......and do nothing about a tire rule for FF..........because
NO STONES
2. They [the SCCA] really don't get it...........they say........at times..........."We're doing this [or that] to hold costs down"..........and then don't deal with other issues that DON'T HOLD COST DOWN.
..........and don't even think about doing the 'tire rule' thing as a regional rule..........the list of excuses will get longer
3. It boils down to this..........if YOU want to run a certain tire, even thought it's slower, in an effort to hold YOUR cost down.........just do it......so you're slower, like the rest of us care......so you don't go home with a trophy.....hey if that bothers you GO BOWLING OR SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S FUN.............
4. If you're in the SCCA and go home at the end of the weekend without out a trophy and also had no fun, give it up. Period.
>>>>>>>>>>Tire rule.......ad nauseum.
And so that you've heard it here first......in case you're too blind to SCCA racing to have already figured it out............if you run a certain tire and change them at the drop of a hat.....and win.............there are some that don't care about your having won........
there is no fun-meter but why else run with the SCCA other than at the Pro level ????
swift17, why only one choice?
One thing that has not been brought up is how a less grippy tire would affect our lap times and how it would position us to the classes we race with. Right now, we are nearly even with F5. Changing the tire rule would make us slower and harder to pass. It would also make it harder to pass the Vees. We could end up being slower in the corners than the Vees and getting ahead of them on the straight only to hold them up in the corner. When mixed in with FCs, FAs, etc, it is going to make the closing speeds coming up on us that much worse. These changes are not necessarily problems, but it is something that people should keep in mind during the discussion. Also, there is a speed vs dollar spent factor when looking at racing classes. A slower tire is going to slow the class down and maybe make it less attractive to people looking to enter the class. The last thing that came to mind that has not been mentioned is how to police a tire/weekend rule. Club races are not policed to the same extent as Pro races. I am not sure that we could properly keep track of it. An example would be CENDIV's difficulty with keeping track of who is running CENDIV championship stickers. Also, most of the top guys in club racing seem to only use one set of new tires per weekend anyway. You would also have to word it as new tires, as you need to be able to mileage out your old tires as you see fit, so it might mean running an old set in practice or qualifying and a new set for the race. A rule change always needs to be fully thought through.
John,
Bill ran the Toyos in June on our DB-6 at the Montreal race and had done a test day at another track prior to that. Changes were needed as has been pointed out but nothing outside the range of what was available on our car.
The biggest difference that Bill and Jim found about using the treaded radial street tire is the weight of the tires and its affect on driving style. They weigh twice what the Hoosiers weigh and that rolling inertia takes some getting used to. (Note, however, that Hoosier radial race tires weigh significantly less than Toyo street tires).
Nothing about our experience in Canada undermined my support for a hard spec tire. We spoke with dozens of drivers and teams in Canada, they love the Toyos.
EJ, we are in support of a spec tire but I would suggest you make clear in your proposal that this should not be a cantilever tire. Same circumference yes, but no cantilever. Hoosier itself wants to scrap the cantilever so now would be the time to do that as well.
I was just thinking aobut the tire sizes. How do we handle the three different sizes we have now, small 6" and 7"s and large 8"? People run all sorts of combinations now. Do we spec one size, or pick two and let people decide what to run? How do we do a wider rear without it being cantilevered? Do we force everyone to buy wider rear wheels?
They match up with which circumference(s), the small diameter for both, or the small for the 185 and the large for the 205? If someone has bought all their gears for one size, it could mean having to buy new gears to run the other size. Does the 205 mm=8.07" wide tire fit well on the 5.5" rim? Is there a reason not to allow people to choose what they run between the two sizes? Presumably, the 185s are cheaper than the 205s, much like the current small vs rear, which is a reason some people run the smalls.
The main reason not to allow running fronts on the rear is to cut down on the need for people to test to see which is faster. That is why it is not allowed in the Pro Series..
I am a huge proponent of spec tires but would never support a change to a miniature rear tire. A non-cantilever tire is fine as long as its proportionately larger than the fronts. The Toyo 205 is close enough to the normal rear Hoosier that gearing would not be an issue.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
If you have bought gears for your tracks based on the small tires, then you would have to buy gears if forced to switch to a larger tire. Most of the people that I run against are running small rears, so it would certainly going to have an affect on a lot of people. I would much more in favor of specing compounds than sizes. The wheel rule limits the size enough as it is.
Selfish thinking? Are you a complete hypocrite? How does allowing people to choose their tire size selfish? Making people run the tire size you want is selfish. If people want to run a 205 or a 185, let them. Why don't we just require everyone to race Swift DB1s? This class is not a spec class. If you want to introduce a rule to decrease the cost of tires, it is fine, but turning around and forcing people to run a more expensive tire on the rear is hypocritical. I am as low budget as it gets. If we can save money by running a smaller rear tire, then I am all for it. If you have the money to spend on bigger rears, good for you.
By the way, if we are going to try for a DOT tire rule, make it a DOT tire, and not one specific brand. Contingency drops when there is only one manufacturer, and they can raise the prices, too. Again, the point is to keep the costs low.
Greg, you need to separate what is good for you from what is good for the class as a whole. Saving money by running a smaller rear tire? Come on. How many people other than you do this? And please tell me how this would benefit the class as a whole? It doesnt.
I would like someone to articulate how an open tire rule currently benefits the FF class as a whole. How $1,100 sets of tires are good for racing in FF.
Ok, I can tell you that at least five other people do it wholly or partly because of the money. One is a guy that just bought his first car this year, a Crossle, and is also racing on a very tight budget. One is a guy that finished on the podium at the Runoffs last year. There are others that run the small tire that I have not talked to, but I am sure they are aware of it. Why do you think so many people do it? Please tell me how it would hurt the class to allow people to run the same tire size front and rear? It does not. As to your last line, if it was aimed at me, you need to go back and read my posts. I have never advocated the current open tire rule. Open tire size, yes, open compound, no. If it was not aimed at me, then carry on.
The reason everyone I know who runs small rears does so is because it is a performance advantage on very fast tracks, not because they want to save a few dollars. In fact, the amount of testing necessary to determine whether small rears are faster for you, and at which tracks, using what gears, and what suspension changes are optimal, will cost you far more money than what you could save by buying small fronts for your rear.
In fact, there are people running the small rears that have never done any testing. In fact, the cost difference per tire is $54 or $108/set. In fact, you have no reason to argue against the small tire because allowing it does not increase the cost of racing and in fact can decrease it. Shall we continue, or will you concede the point?
In our experiences running front tires on the rear, we were replacing rear tires 3-4 times more often. We did it because we were forced to in order to be competitive with other cars at those tracks. It more than doubled our tire budget. New tires for every other session is not good for the class.
Have you ever run proper rear FF tires to understand the advantages and disadvantages?
IMO, if you and your underfunded buddies switched to regular FF sized tires in the 45 compound, you would lose .5% performance in the first 2 sessions, then gain performance, perhaps 5% by the 6th-10th sessions. You would experience an overall performance increase and halve your tire budgets.
Last edited by problemchild; 08.06.14 at 8:09 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
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