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  1. #1
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Default Pinto Zetec parity in NWFC (everyone is welcome to weigh in)

    For those who have followed along on Apexspeed.com, or for those who have been to a race featuring both pinto’s and zetec’s, it has become apparent that the two packages are no longer equal. It was revealed on Apexspeed that the zetec package now has 5-6 hp more at peak power than the pinto. Coupling this with its higher torque curve and flatter powerband, the package has the advantage in every area. Over the past two months we have heard from both pinto and zetec owners who want something to be done to bring the two packages back to parity. Those who recently bought zetec’s did so because of the cost savings of running 93 octane pump fuel and a longer rebuild cycle, not because they wanted to run away from every pinto out there. They want people to race with. The pinto on the other hand offers a lower entry cost to this group, however, if they are not equal in power to the zetec’s then entry to the group becomes much less desirable. It is the plan of NWFC to bring these two packages back to equality. A few of the proposed options are:

    Weight penalty for zetecs (probably around 50 lbs, simplest solution)

    Upgraded carb for Pinto’s (may be equal at first, development could lead to pinto dominance though)

    Upgraded cam for Pinto’s (Same reasoning as carb)

    Remapping/restrictor change of Zetec ( a little bit of cost to competitor, testing needed to prove equality, future adjustments possibly necessary)


    There are other options out there than this. If you have any suggestions, please submit them.

    New suggestions:
    1. Zetecs run f2000 tires.

    Regardless of what happens with SCCA we will do something to bring the two packages together for our group. The zetec owners in the group who I have talked to so far are in favor of scaling back their zetecs via restrictor, which is the lowest cost option for the group, however if the group wants to go in a different direction we can pursue that as well.
    Last edited by ccoffin; 08.28.14 at 4:31 AM. Reason: Added new suggestions

  2. #2
    Senior Member kea's Avatar
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    Default Pinto-Zetec parity

    A higher weight minimum for the Zetec engined FC is the best option.

    Then, if the owner of that engined car, wants to run with some other group, they just remove it.
    Not the same option for those with a Pinto powerplant (who had to pay up when the Zetec engines wanted a different engine setting). A carb or cam change would require much more work if they too wanted to run at another event.
    Plus, why add more power to the Pinto, and cause an increase in engine wear !
    Keith
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  3. #3
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    Only current problem with the weight plan would be adding 75lbs to a car could be difficult. He currently doesn't eat enough donuts.

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    there are a whole bunch of 1.295 restrictors floating around (Sandy and Steve have the maps to go with them) which would probably do the trick to slow them down.

    We changed to the 1.340 because the Pintos were eating the Zetec's lunch with them at the end of any reasonable straight.
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    Banned Modo's Avatar
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    So Pintos should show up at Laguna, more like it, tnx Bob......

    Posto, yea the blue green lived in the NE, looked great!!!

  6. #6
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    We don't mind the restrictor change but the old map we are not a fan of.

    93oct compared to 100-110oct up here in Canadaland is about 300% more expensive so not fair to the Zetec guys having to pay an extra $200 a weekend.

  7. #7
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Hey Roger, quick Google fu led me to springbank airport in Calgary and villeneuve airport in Edmonton both offering 100ll to the general public at about 10% above US prices. I realize you are in between the two so it'd still be a pain in the a$$ to get it logistically, but doable for miles or x amount of others who live closer.

    I know 75 lbs of ballast sounds like a lot, but Keith brings up a good point about it being removable and it's something we could also adjust to make work.

    With the bump in zetec grunt since the 1.295 restrictor was last used, it may be that with that restrictor and map the two are now more equal than ever. Will need to test and find out. Currently the zetec comes out of the corners at a much higher rate and reaches the same terminal velocity as the pintos, so while it used to be that a pinto could make up this ground at the end of a long straight it is no longer an option.

    The blue and green machine is definitely quick. Zac had no problem getting to the front of the pack on the first lap of the PIR majors we ran with pacific f2000 series and no doubt he would have swept the weekend had he not had a corner taken off on the 4th lap of the race going through traffic.

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    Default weight ?

    I say make the Zetec's put the 1.295 restrictors (these 1.295 restrictors should not cost much ) BACK IN !! and DROP Pinto weight till it EVENS OUT !!
    The Pinto Guys were here first and should NOT SHOULDER THE COST OF GETTING BACK TO EVEN WHEN IT WAS NOT THEM THAT CHANGED !!

    Lee A. Jordan
    p.s.Dave W. IS NOW HAULING AROUND MORE WEIGHT THAN FORT KNOX!!

  9. #9
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    Charlie,

    None of the pinto guys up here run anything higher than pump so only me and Zac would be having to go drive out to the airports to get some. And still at that it has now increased our cost for a weekend and every weekend after so its the gift that keeps on stealing. The fix should be a one time payment and as small as a payment as possible.

    I personally vote weight but that is because I am already there and I see why Zac wants another option because it would be difficult for him to add to much.

    I think we should machine out the adapters on my 3rd set of wheels to fit a VD hub and that would bring him right up to the new weight no problem.

    Roger

    Edit: The newest gas price from spring bank i could find was 2013 and it was $1.70/L so 40cents more than pump. Rough math about $50-75 more per weekend.
    Last edited by RSS; 07.23.14 at 12:09 PM. Reason: gas info

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    The old map and restrictor use 93 pump gas. There is very little difference between it and the current one.
    ----------
    In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips

  11. #11
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wright View Post
    The old map and restrictor use 93 pump gas. There is very little difference between it and the current one.
    Hmmm not what QS has been leading us to believe.

  12. #12
    Senior Member kea's Avatar
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    Default Pinto Zetec parity

    [QUOTE=LAJ;439319]and DROP Pinto weight till it EVENS OUT !!
    QUOTE]

    Droping weight (fly-weight components) cost money too and the Pinto guys paid-up the last time.
    Keith
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  13. #13
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wright View Post
    The old map and restrictor use 93 pump gas. There is very little difference between it and the current one.
    Which map and restrictor are you referring to Bob? The 1.295 restrictor with 2006ish? map. Or the old 1.34 map?

    I was under the impression that both needed 100 or 110. If able to use 93 this could be a viable solution.

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    Both the 1.295 and the 1.340 restrictor (and associated maps) use 93 pump gas.
    ----------
    In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips

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    Banned Modo's Avatar
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    Token Gold, not real gold, .............. do we have any scrutineers around this place ...... in one of the neatest classes, Indy-F1 jes 2-3 steps away, sort-of ......... and miles, LOL

  16. #16
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    Is there a Modo translator available on the web somewhere?

    I always read your posts but never have a clue what I just read.

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  18. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wright View Post
    Both the 1.295 and the 1.340 restrictor (and associated maps) use 93 pump gas.
    Bob I will check but pretty sure the 1.295 map was race fuel or AV gas.

  19. #18
    Senior Member DFR Dave Freitas's Avatar
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    Leave it like it is. The Pinto cars are dirt cheap at the moment because they can't keep up, and this makes for a great entry level car to get your feet wet.
    Dave Freitas Racing
    www.davefreitasracing.com
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  20. #19
    Senior Member Zac.B's Avatar
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    Over the winter I will definetly look to see if adding weight would be viable in my car. Maybe 2-3 chunks of lead in random spots?

    Also maybe it would be reasonable for us, RSS, to each buy a 55 gal. drum of VP and try to get a group deal? That way we could keep them on the garage and take what we need per weekend.

    Would it be possible to have a map put together with smaller restrictor and 93/94 fuel? Maybe we could be the testing ground for something bigger like a SCCA move?

    Just some more fuel in the fire,
    Zac

  21. #20
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFR Dave Freitas View Post
    Leave it like it is. The Pinto cars are dirt cheap at the moment because they can't keep up, and this makes for a great entry level car to get your feet wet.
    The 80's reynard's and other rocker armed cars are dirt cheap and make for far better entry level cars. 24k pinto vd's not so much. The two zetecs up here so far were great deals for their owners and at least one of them proved capable of keeping up with cars with way more money dumped into them. The other one was forty lbs over weight and didn't have the car lined up and was pretty much dead nuts even with the best pinto. We know our demographic in the northwest and it is that of the racer searching for value, not that of one who is willing to dump unlimited funds in to a car chasing the last tenth of a second, but someone who is willing to spend their money where they see value. Both sides of the aisle up here want equality and the most people possible to competitively race against. So we are going to do something, doing nothing is not an option for our group. If we had 25 zetecs to 5 pintos that may be different, but the numbers are opposite of that. Even then you would be excluding over 15% of a group, which is unacceptable for us to do. Everyone in this group is friends and doesn't want to screw over anyone else or the group as a whole. That's why our numbers have grown significantly and why they will continue to grow. That's why we are being proactive with this change.

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  23. #21
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    Default Zetec Higher Weight - Cheapest Most Effective Option

    "A higher weight minimum for the Zetec engined FC is the best option"

    It really is a good example of simpler is better engineering. All other solutions are more complex and . . . more $.

    I ran a 1974 Capri on Mulholland Drive during the 1970s. Some Capri drivers were using dual side draft Weber 40 DOCEs. Essentially, they were what are called YACs today. Again, more money.

    Add weight, distributing maintaining a low CG. Keep it simple.

    Or . . . sell the car like me, and buy something else.

    cheers,
    g

  24. #22
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoffin View Post
    ....... That's why we are being proactive with this change
    Charlie,

    This is interesting and probably warranted. However, how will you accomplish it? The ENTIRE basis of FC rules are "as defined in the SCCA GCR". Do you intend to rewrite those rules into the ICSCC rule book with the required mods? Thus creating a whole new class to worry about under ICSCC rules. Or, will you create an addendum to the rules defining the mods ONLY within ICSCC rules?

    Last but WAY FAR from last, will you put this through the 'standard' ICSCC rules change process? Which means you have to submit the proposed change by something like September for ALL MEMBERS to vote on.

    For those who aren't aware. ALL ICSCC rules changes have to occur in late Fall to be effective during the next competition season and also have to be voted on and approved by ALL driver members.

    This is one of those changes where not having an ultimate dictatorial command like the SCCA or FIA is a problem.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  25. #23
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Thanks rick for bringing that up as it was one of my first thoughts too.

    If an option is agreed upon in time for a rule proposal it will come in the form of a competition adjustment (this is my understanding from talking to my e-board rep, for those not in the know the e-board is like icscc's electoral college. Each member club that puts on an event gets a single vote regardless of how many active members it has. Irdc has like 400+ members from what I hear and NWMS has like 20, but both put on events so each club gets equal voting rights, 1/5). And just be an amendment to the one line of FC rules in the p&p. paraphrasing the conversation I had with the rep so specific language may be incorrect but you get the gist of it. Rules can also be proposed, passed, and tabled while awaiting necessary feedback and data from members. Generally speaking, if those who vote on a change have 100% approval of the change from those members that it directly effects they will follow suit and allow the change to occur.

    If further work needs to be done before an Icscc proposal can be made we will make it a NWFC series rule for 2015 and abide by it within our group at our events and delay a rule change until fall 2015. Whatever happens, we will abide by the rule differences when running with other sanctioning bodies for our events. This is important because our series will more than likely have an event at castrol raceway in 2015 (pending member feedback), and the sanctioning body would be NASCC. Also applies to when we run group 6 in FL like at the ridge later this year.

    As a worst case scenario in ICSCC we can propose a class name change to NWFC and jump through the 2.5 hoop again with a new rule set that we control. Similar to what the 944 guys did with pro44 class breaking away from their national PCA class a few years ago. Their car counts jumped significantly as a result.

    Feel free to shoot off other questions or ask for clarifications or correct me and others through this process. We wanted to have this out in the public forum and not behind closed doors so others could help the process. I realize I was rather dismissive of what Dave said before and I probably shouldn't have been as I want this to be a discussion to find the best solution for our group, not just me telling someone they are wrong. If over the next few months we decide that it is best to leave everything alone that's what will happen. I personally hope that isn't the way it goes, but NWFC will do what the group wants to do. As a result of this forum I have received more personal emails with people who were on the fence, now leaning towards weight penalty, even going to test it out by the end of the month! That said if you want your voice to be heard on the issue, speak up. If someone wants to play devils advocate do that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eospeed View Post
    Bob I will check but pretty sure the 1.295 map was race fuel or AV gas.


    It is race fuel 110 or AV gas

  27. #25
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kea View Post
    A higher weight minimum for the Zetec engined FC is the best option.....
    Well, sounds like you've got it covered on the rule mod end of things. Now, as you are aware, Jeff and I are no longer involved in FC/ICSCC racing (but I sure do miss it.. sigh). Having said that, I have to agree with Keith Averill that a weight addition on the Zetec powered cars is the most practical solution for a couple of reasons.

    1.
    Easy to check at Tech.
    2.
    Allows drivers who want to remove the ballast and run the SCCA Major at Pacific and go to Portland for the Rose Festival.
    3.
    Nobody has a major engine project to stay in the game.
    4.
    If future upgrades are allowed under SCCA rules to the Pinto, easy to adjust back for the Zetec.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Senior Member Zac.B's Avatar
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    Default Ballast

    This probably is the wrong place to put this but it has some relation to the topic. Does anyone have any idea where/ how to add 75lbs to a Van Diemen? I'm not sure I could fit that much under the seat, maybe a bit in the battery compartment? I would like to have it easily removable to run outside the NWFC series.

    And I've tried eating more but it's going on slower then I would have though .

    Thanks
    Zac B.

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    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zac.B View Post
    ....And I've tried eating more but it's going on slower then I would have though . Thanks Zac B.
    GOOD LORD! Pass me your problem! Since going through recovery from heart surgery in 2010 I've been eating WAY less with no real change in my activity level pre surgery versus now. In 2013 for no apparent reason (no change in diet or exercise from 2011/2012 I put on FIFTY POUNDS!

    Very sad.

    If you're wondering why I'm posting at 2:45 AM, I don't sleep well any more either. So I'm waiting for the F1 race to start at 5 AM Pacific Time.

    Getting old isn't worth the effort. And, the alternative really doesn't seem that bad on occasion.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    I believe Billy Graham had these comments about growing old... something like this.... "I was prepared to grow old, just not so weak." "I was prepared to grow old, just not ugly." Me.... "The only thing Golden about the Golden Years is the tint on my Toast." Actually, I don't miss anything from my youth ! Except the sex, strength, endurance, reflexes, memory, eyesight, hearing, hair....
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  31. #29
    Contributing Member DaveW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zac.B View Post
    This probably is the wrong place to put this but it has some relation to the topic. Does anyone have any idea where/ how to add 75lbs to a Van Diemen? I'm not sure I could fit that much under the seat, maybe a bit in the battery compartment? I would like to have it easily removable to run outside the NWFC series.

    And I've tried eating more but it's going on slower then I would have though .

    Thanks
    Zac B.
    Most VD's tend toward understeer, so, if you can, to degrade the performance as little as possible with the added weight, I would try putting it as low as practical somewhere just aft of the roll hoop, i.e., under the engine, or between the engine and roll hoop.

    If you can't do that, just keep it low and near the CG.
    Dave Weitzenhof

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    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdad2 View Post
    I believe Billy Graham had these comments about growing old...
    LOL Racerdad2,

    There's far more truth in those quotes then I care to admit. Growing old really sucks. I must admit, the weekend before I went in the hospital for heart surgery, I was at the track for our annual Historics event with SOVREN running up and down the track helping drivers and flagging. Felt just great.

    Then on Wednesday after the race, I was sitting on the sofa watching TV and all of a sudden I started gasping for breath. Could not get enough air in my lungs. I was close to calling an aid car when all of a sudden it went away. Hmmm, that was strange so I went to bed. Next morning I woke up and didn't feel real good so I called my sister-in-law to come and take me to the clinic. When I walked in the clinic and described what happened to the receptionist, she had me lay down flat and called an ambulance to come and get me to the hospital. Five days later, quad bypass and a valve repair. Then 6 months in a recovery facility learning how to walk and feed myself.

    After my heart surgery (including 2 strokes) I fought like hell to get back to the track with ICSCC. Managed to do it and was named Turnworker of the Year in 2011. Then it all started down hill. Now I cannot walk two city blocks without a break to recover. Not out of breath, muscles just don't work. Just don't understand why I felt so much better in 2011 then I do in 2014

    I always thought smoking would kill me with lung cancer. Never did hear that smoking causes more heart problems then cancers. All I can say is QUIT or DON'T SMOKE! 46 years of a pack a day leads to trouble. 334,880 cigarettes just isn't good for you.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    Rick. PM sent. Glad you're still on the green side
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Senior Member quickmag's Avatar
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    Default Zetec Parity

    Easiest way to slow the Zetecs down - Driver has to be senior citizen. My son always seems to be 2 seconds a lap faster than me.

    Rickb99/RacerDad2 - yes guys growing old SUCKS. But I still think it beats the alternative.

    Quickmag (65 and still counting - or...... what was I talking about?)

  35. #33
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickmag View Post
    ......Quickmag (65 and still counting - or...... what was I talking about?)
    THAT is when my health went over the cliff. When it happens, it's fast
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    I ain't complaining, just poking fun That said, I truly miss the quick recovery from a hard day.

    Even in my fifties, Monday's weren't a big deal after a weekend of wrenching & kart racing. Now, Monday's are tough but the Tuesday's are even tougher

    This weekend. Friday evening, Wrenched on karts til 10 pm. Saturday, Up & wrenching at 6 am putting new chassis together for the days racing. Wrapped up at 5:30 pm. Sunday. Slept in til 7:00. Wrenched & raced til 6 pm. Monday. Up at 4:30 am for road trip to BIR track day. Played all day wrenching on Reynard & car hauler. Treated son to ride alongs in outrageously fast RX 7, Gallardo & Radical. Camped out at track. Tuesday. Packed up the car hauler. Got home late afternoon. Went straight to bed Everything aches. Can't wait to see my chiropractor tomorrow morning so I can do this all over again next race weekend
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  37. #35
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    LOL Racerdad2, YOU are "WORKING" too hard
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    I agree ! I notify all my clients at the beginning of the racing season that will not be available on Mondays I usually miss two days of work after a long weekend I'm Blessed with a wife that understands my need for & my addiction to speed ! She just laughs as I struggle just to get out of bed on Mondays
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  39. #37
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Important questions are bolded

    Quote Originally Posted by quickmag View Post
    Easiest way to slow the Zetecs down - Driver has to be senior citizen. My son always seems to be 2 seconds a lap faster than me.

    Rickb99/RacerDad2 - yes guys growing old SUCKS. But I still think it beats the alternative.

    Quickmag (65 and still counting - or...... what was I talking about?)
    So far this concept has been proven on the track quikmag senior zetec equality plan

    Since last posting, here is where we are at.

    Last weekend, Zac (zetec), Brian (zetec), and Teague (pinto) competed. Zac set the new baseline at castrol and Brian and Teague were neck and neck all weekend. Unfortunately, Zac had engine issues before he had a chance to add any weight. Brian and Teague were at equal weights from what I hear (both at about +50), but Brian was enforcing the aforementioned senior zetec equality plan. So no real usable data.

    This upcoming weekend Roger (zetec) will race Michael (pinto) at mission with Roger being somewhere between +40 and 50 lbs. it's michaels home track and with the weight difference he should be at an advantage, and between the two of them they should help prove that weight can make the two packages raceable.

    I bring this back up for a few reasons:

    A. Another NWFC member went over to the dark-side, but also wants to slow the zetecs down to match the pinto. Weight adjustment is also their first choice. The more zetecs that enter the region the more important it is to match the two engine packages to keep car counts and competitiveness high.

    B. It's a long weekend and what better time to bring this back up.

    C. As we have delved further into this we have started to put some crude mathematical models together to try to narrow our sights. So far the math says between 35-45 lbs is needed. One of the issues that has arisen is the amount of hp lost between the fly wheel and what actually gets put down on the track in the pinto vs the zetec. Does anyone know how much is lost for either? Also, to improve our model, what rpm do people shift at with the zetec?

    D. Another option that has been discussed is making the zetecs use the f2000 spec Hoosier. We have heard these are slower than bias play, but the question is, by how much?

    E. There may be some time during September where some decent testing can actually occur, not during a race weekend, and we would like to gain more info to help map out a plan for that testing.

    We appreciate your input apex community, and it has already helped steer our decision process.

  40. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoffin View Post
    C. As we have delved further into this we have started to put some crude mathematical models together to try to narrow our sights. So far the math says between 35-45 lbs is needed. One of the issues that has arisen is the amount of hp lost between the fly wheel and what actually gets put down on the track in the pinto vs the zetec. Does anyone know how much is lost for either? Also, to improve our model, what rpm do people shift at with the zetec?
    Not to hinder your efforts because I think it's noble of you guys to take up this cause, but why are you building crude math models when high fidelity simulations already exist? 45lbs is less than 4% change in weight. Are you sure your crude models have an error less than that?

    Secondly, drivetrain efficiency shouldn't matter if you assuming everyone is using the LD200. There will be variations across different LD200s, but I think that is outside the scope of your work. My assumption would be that drivetrain loss should be negligible for your goal.

    Lastly, it would be reasonable to assume the shift points all occur at an RPM that matches in the following gear (ie. 2nd gear shift up at 7000rpm at 145hp, in 3rd gear 5500rpm at 145hp) and if that isn't possible because the hp curve is still climbing then redline. The assumption should be optimum shifts for optimum acceleration.

  41. #39
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    Normalizing the hp/lbs shows the current ztecs hold a big advantage over the Pinto upto about 6000 rpm. Above 6000 rpm the best Pintos narrow the gap, but are hard pressed to eliminate it. A weight adjustment of about 35 lbs will decrease the ztec advantage below 6000 rpm and give the Pinto a slight advantage above 6000 rpm.

    Not a perfect solution but maybe the best one. Some tracks will continue to favor the Ztec, others will favor the Pinto.

  42. #40
    Senior Member John LaRue's Avatar
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    Wonder what this would do to the experiment?

    Up for sale is my beloved "Sea Biscuit" Iron Head Pinto FC Engine. It is completely fresh with only dyno time. Built to the latest spec (cam/flywheel) by Elite Engines. It comes with our extra light weight 5.5" clutch. It has reved to multi FC National Championships, F2000 Pro Series race winner and poles, and numerous FC track records including Road America. $9500

    Thank you,
    Niki Coello

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