Attach Hewland Mk9 to a Crossle Guide

[snettleship]

Good timing on this. I pulled the engine a Hewland Mk9 after a race in April when started pushing oil out the breather (eg. quarts). I had the rebuild by Quicksilver and had the case replaced and rebuilt by Williams Racing Components. I have the engine back in and want to get the Hewland back in. I've spent time trying. I remember a "twist" coming out but the only thing that is twisting at the moment is my back.

Can someone offer the step by step guide? I've spent the day working on the car, recording Indy. Ironically, it's because I need to get this back together by next weekend to go to the SVRA Brickyard vintage race. Thanks

[Steve Demeter]

Obvious but you probably have checked it already: Is the clutch disc properly aligned with the pilot bearing?

How far does the input shaft go in before it won't go any farther.

Have had them hang going form the disc into the pilot bearing because I did not have the disc and the pilot bearing properly lined up.

Another trick to save your back is to use your engine hoist with a piece of webbing around the box to support the weight. This also allows less difficulty maneuvering the box around.

Also make sure that you have the box parallel to the engine or you will never get the input shaft in the disc.

Learned from many mistakes I have made in the past.

[Rick Kirchner]

also - hanging the box off the input shaft while trying to get it to align can crack the disc.

[sevenselans]

I think that I had the bell housing attached to the gearbox when I installed it on my 32. You are correct that you have to twist it to the right to clear the chassis. Also I measure that the dummy clutch shaft is centered to the pressure plate. Measure in 4 quadrants.

Chris

[snettleship]

Thanks, things that keep me up at night. First time I have pulled the engine and trans from the Crossle. Did it several times when I had a Lotus 7 but was a different beastie. Of course assuming things get back together then make sure it starts, shifts, runs ok, check for leaks, replace brake and clutch fluid and on.....

On another note, the transmission came with of 2 quarts of Joe Gibbs brake in fluid. Didn't thank about that. Advice on that? if things go ok and I make it to Indy on the 3rd, Idid sign up fot the test day. Hopefully that will give me a chance make adjustment if there are problems.

Tomorrow (actually today now) I'll right up some straps to the engine hoist and hopefully get this mated ok. Just working off brain cells so I can get too sleep.

I'll take any other suggestions from folks that go it alone inthe garage trying to prep a car for a big race. Been doing it for 10 years nor but this one seems a lot different (Indy) and never had the entire back of the car one week before it has to be onthe trailer.

[Brian]

In the picture I notice that the clutch slave cylinder is off - do you attach that after the box is through the bulkhead, or are you using a concentric slave cylinder? Also, Ithink you need to have the discs on the output shafts before you install the trans, I don't think they can go over the bolts after the trans is in place.

Brian

[snettleship]

Thanks for the reminder to replace the clutch disk! So, another transaxle newbie Q&A. In the pic is the case, clutch release, bobbin, new disk and plate. My assumption is to bolt the plate w/ disk back on, get the case through the chassis and magically get them all to align. Would it be better to first put the disk & plate on the input shaft and install?

[Will Velkoff]

I've had quite a bit of difficulty getting my gearbox back into the car. The separation between the rear bulkhead just isn't big enough to get it in and out easily. I've found the easiest way to put the gearbox in first and have it bolted up with the rear supported so it's parallel, then drop the engine into the engine bay and slide it back into the gearbox until they are mated.

I also used a dremel to the box and banged out the lower rear bulkhead bar so the gearbox can be pulled from the rear. It's a tight fit but now possible.

[S Lathrop]

Now you need to have a clutch alignment too to get the clutch disk and the pilot bearing aligned. Any auto parts store will have a selection and they are not very expensive. Without that tool your only other option is to remove the input shaft from the transmission and use that to align your clutch.

I recommend that that you remove the rear cover from the gear box so you can turn the input shaft as you insert it into the clutch. It is the only way I found to do it easily. I usually take the gear stack out of the tranny to reduce the weight. Makes it go together a lot easier.

To make this process easier yet, get a pair of long bolts (probably 7/16 course threads) and make a pair of alignment studs so that the tranny is guided on the adapter. You might do the same with the upper tranny mounts on the frame. Makes it all go a lot easier. Once you have the tranny and engine together you can remove the studs and replace them t=with the correct bolts.

I found that the threads in the adapter (especially the bottom 2) were so marginal that I always changed to studs to hold the tranny on.

[Brian]

I have a crossle 32 in my shop that has a removable rear bulkhead, and I swear I don't see how you could get the gearbox through it. But I looked again and I can see how you could do it. You will need to fully install the clutch onto the flywheel first, using a disc centering tool (an input shaft is best), but you can buy universal ones at the auto parts store, or a plastic one from a race parts supplier. Or you could take the input shaft out of your gearbox, use it to install the clutch, and then put it back in the gearbox, although that seems a little overkill. After you do that you need to install the clutch slave cylinder mount on the side of the gearbox bellhousing. Before you start to offer up the gearbox (how British does that sound) you need to slide the release bearing spacer over the input shaft and put the discs on the output shafts (or remember to put them on at the last minute just before you fully seat the gearbox on the adaptor ring. The way I think it would go in is to very slightly tilt the rear of the engine up, rotate the gearbox counter-clockwise about 45 degrees, slide it in and get the input shaft engaged in the clutch disc splines, and start to wiggle it in. As soon as you can, rotate it upright and get the upper gearbox mounting bolts started into the bushings on the upper cross-member. They will hold it stable. Wiggle it to get the input shaft into the pilot bearing and it will eventually just seat itself home on the adaptor ring.

Good luck...

Brian

[snettleship]

I really appreciate the explanation. I've been trying this type of orientation and just can't get the bugger into the chassis. Have been tempted to start grinding a small bit off the case! I would really like to talk to Mr Crossle and ask him what the heck were you thinking?! Here are a few last pics (maybe my last ever with this car

[Brian]

I'm just about to go out in my shop and figure it out. I post what I find for you in about an hour.

Edit, an hour later... I have the answer - it can't be done - at least I couldn't do it. I think the gearbox needs to have a section cut out of the bottom of the bellhousing so it can slip over the lower crossmember, then down a bit and you get clearance to rotate the gearbox about 20 degrees off vertical counter clockwise and then you can work it in to place. You have a new, virgin gearbox case, you said...

I recall reading somewhere just in the past two or three days about a crossle gearbox having a hole cut out, but now I can't find it.

Edit again: it's in this thread that I started; http://apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63682

You need to fasten the clutch slave cylinder mount onto the gearbox, it has nuts that you can't reach once you succeed in getting that box past the bulkhead.

Brian

[pooch776]

Scott,

Is this a new case?? I just re-cased my gearbox and I had to machine off the bottom of the case to match the old one. Not sure it would ever clear the bottom tube unless some of the case is removed.

Joe

[snettleship]

Yes, this is a new Rhino case. Did not come with the words "some modifications required". So, time for some measuring and a dremel tool and see where it leads. Thanks to everyone for the help and a warning to all.....

[pooch776]

Scott,

I started with a saws all then used an angle grinder to finish it. I had to remove the material just below the two bolt holes that hold the case to the adapter. If I still had the old case I would send you a photo but it went in the trash last week. My Crossle is in NJ and will not be back in the garage until next weekend. Sorry I can't be more help.

Joe

[sevenselans]

So the case may be the issue. I know that Tivvy could not reinstall the gearbox on his 32. He and I had a long discussion re this issue as I said I did it on the 32 that I will have for sale. I think I also rested the engine on a jack and tilted it down at the back. Worst case, undo engine mounts and move the engine further forward. Good luck.

Chris

[Brian]

For longevity I would have either the adaptor ring or the gearbox whole on the the bottom. Often both are cut away for ground clearance, on old cars like these I give up the half inch and keep the strength, to say nothing of preventing ground strikes on the flywheel (can you say `new crankshaft`). In this case I think you might be able to keep the bottom of the bellhousing on the transmission and just cut away behind the ring portion. I know you can keep the bottom of the adaptor ring. Just a thought as you get out the surgical tools. FWIW I would use a Sawzall with a wood cutting blade, straight cuts to largish drilled holes, just go quite slow and don`t get it too hot - you are cutting magnesium into fine powder, and we all know what that does... Similarly it is very bad form to use a grinding wheel to cut either aluminium or magnesium. Excess heat is sometimes very bad...

Brian

[snettleship]

I do have a custom skid place installed to help protect the the flywheel. Thanks for the advice.

[Will Velkoff]

Ah, didn't know you had a Rhino case. I have a standard case MK9 and still had to grind some off of the bottom and "massage" the lower frame rail a bit so it can freely come in and out. I do it with the engine mount bolts loose and a floor jack under the motor to angle it properly.

I also had to grind down the head of the lower right adapter plate bolt or else it hits the chassis before it is fully unthreaded.

I remember my first time doing this, I was just saying WTF was Mr. Crossle thinking. Oh and forget it when I finally got it back together and realized the brake rotors don't fit and need to be installed first!

At this point, it may be easier to yank the engine out, slide the box in from the engine bay and back through the rear bulkhead, then drop the engine back in and mate the two together. It may sound like a lot more work, but it will be less aggravating and probably quicker in the long run.

[snettleship]

I took my car to a vintage race shop (SASCO at VIR) and begged and pleaded until they did the work. They had a Crossle 32 that seems to be excessively "modded". I called Williams Racing Components that did the new case and rebuild and they send me pictures of my old case. With that, I now have a Hewland MK9 that has cut outs in the lower bellhousing and also where the starter (in some applications) was. I did a little trimming on the sides in a failed attempt of desperation before I got pro's involved.

I will post pictures and the final result for posterity but know enough not to do that first as that angers the racing gods to seek retribution for celebrating on the last lap before getting back to the start/finish line.

[snettleship]

The good news is the bellhousing slips right into the chassis opening without a problem. But, the racing gods are related to the golf gods and think it's the struggle that makes the man. I have a plastic 20 spline alignment tool and that goes right in. I put some wood shims under the engine to give it a slight upward angle. I can get the input shaft into the clutch disk then stops when I assume it is hitting the pilot bearing. I have tried 8 or so times taking it out, checking the alignment and getting to that last 1/2 inch, but with no success. Apparently I'm lacking technique. Any words of wisdom?

[sevenselans]

Did you measure that the alignment dowel is equidistant from the clutch fingers in 4 quadrants?
Is the gearbox in gear, this helps. Also I see no grease on the end of the input shaft. Is the bearing well greased. Finally I assume that input shaft is not longer for some reason? Have you measured this?

Chris

[Hawke]

I've found some "alignment tools" particularly those marked "universal" are not much better than useless. Too much slop, and you only need to be out by a poofteenth to stop the shaft entering the bearing.

One solution is to just do up the pressure plate that will allow the friction plate to just move. Fit the gearbox, and while installed, carefully tighten two (diametrically opposed) of the pressure plate screws. You may need to rotate the engine.

Remove gearbox, tighten remaining screws. If this works - take original alignment tool, and place in garbage. Buy good alignment tool. I dont know where you will get one. I ended up machining one up from a bit of (I think) 3/4 rod.

One final point - just make sure you have the bobbin installed, and the right way around. Its a real PITA, when its the wrong way around, and you only find out, when you put your foot on the clutch the first time, and it just goes click and then to the floor.

[snettleship]

Ok, 6:00am, back to work (before I have to go back to the real job). This is my first time trying to install a Hewland so no detail is too obvious. With that said:
- As for the grease, so I need to put some bearing grease into the pilot bearing, aka the hole I'm trying to get the input shaft into? I had not but that was next.
- Put the gearbox in gear. It is not, and that is a great suggestion as I forget this when I am changing gears
- I'm hoping the alignment tool works as it is the correct number of splines (not and I did pay $2.50 at the auto parts store for it (need some humor to keep me going.

I did change the clutch disk so I had the pressure plate off. Can I be over tightening the pressure plate? Again, no detail too small and pointers to any other material greatly appreciated.

[stephen wilson]

I've had the same alignment tool problem. Luckily, with the Tilton you can loosely bolt it like Hawke suggests, and visually center it by using the OD of the pressure plate as a guide.

[pooch776]

A new clutch disk can be very tight on the input shaft. The disk can also be hard to start onto the shaft. Have you tried to slide the disk onto the shaft? You may have to clean up the splines on the shaft or disk if it does not start and slide on freely. I have a cheap alignment tool but it seems to work. I usually put the gearbox in two gears to lock the input shaft and as I am installing the gearbox I rotate the flywheel/clutch assembly using a large screwdriver. Once you get the teeth on the input shaft aligned with the clutch disk it should start to slide together. You do NOT want to use the nuts and bolts to "pull" the gearbox toward the engine. This is a good way to brake something! It is important to keep the engine and gear box aligned while you are installing the gearbox. You should continually check to make sure the space between the gearbox and the adapter is close to equal top to bottom and side to side as it goes together. Also don't forget the bobbin...it sucks if you have to do it twice!! Cheers, Joe

[Brian]

Sometimes just giving the gearbox a shake side to side lets it wiggle in.

Brian

[Skeezix]

Also be sure that the splines on the input shaft are not even slightly burred. We used to test fit the disc - juts slide it on to be sure that it won't hang up.
Also we used to change the input shaft seal - they seem to be about five bucks now, they were 99 cents then.
You will want to do that if you haven't, the gear box oil WILL wick forward and coat the friction surface and you will get to do this all over.

Also at the rear mounts upper we made concentric bushings on some of the cars that we built. They were not perfect so an off set bushing allowed some wiggle.
Oh and be patient, it was together once and can be again.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/v/vspfi...311-113A-1.jpg

[snettleship]

Yes, thanks for the suggestions. I have run the new clutch disk over the input shaft a few times. Also took a light wire brush over the input shaft to make sure there were no shavings from the Bellhousing surgery yesterday. I just heard someone else mention the screw driver in the hole through the Transmission/Engine adapter. I also had someone suggest taking out the gear stack just to make the whole thing lighter while all the fiddling is going on. Looks like my goal with this thread is to get every possible piece of advice on the topic? I have someone volunteer to come over and help who I can safely say is an expert in Hewland transmissions to help. I hope to have better status to report this afternoon as my actual bill paying job beckons (at least I can work at home in cases like this).

[Gary_T]

Take the rear cover off, all gears out - now you can grab the mainshaft (one connected to the input shaft) and wiggle/twist it slightly while the gearbox hangs from a cradle of some sort.

[Brian]

The thread that won't end...

Couple of comments on the suggestions. On taking the gear cluster out. It's extremely hard to undo the nuts that hold the main shaft and layshaft in when the gearbox isn't attached to the car. They are done up to 125 ft lbs. I had to build a jig to do it. It's not a 10 minute job.

If you do do that and try the wiggle the layshaft trick, which is a good trick, recall that once you have the layshaft out of the box the input shaft is just lying there. It is uber-easy to have it fall forward a wee bit, then the coupler falls off, then you get to learn how to take the left hand side cover off and say hi to the differential as you put the coupler back on.

I bet your buddy has it in there in ten minutes or less... I had to chuckle at your first post, where you said you have never had the car that far apart and only a week to when you needed to load the car. Wise words in hindsight, but my thought was I've had a car about that far apart two hours before false grid, and still made it... I didn't have to get someone to cut off the bottom of my gearbox, true...

Again, for the final time, don't forget to put the discs on before you get the gearbox in...

Brian

[snettleship]

Success! Finally have the transmission on! I was talking with Paul Williams from Williams Racing Components, tried to explain the problem and he volunteered to help me out. They are the ones that replaced the case and rebuild the transmission. He tried what I had been doing and basically came to the same point I did, looked like it wanted to slide into the pilot bearing, started to but stopped with one side (right) in maybe a 3/16 closer that the other (left). He removed the clutch, check the disk and pressure plate. He then tried to install without the clutch and went in, no problem. Reassembled the clutch, tried again and went right also. For some reason, the clutch appeared to be "askew" so it would not go straight into the pilot bearing. I assume just him reassembling with all his expertise fixed what was causing that. He took the transmission out again, torqued the clutch bolts to 20lbs and then I installed it without problem (teaching me how to fish moment).

Some things I learned,
- assembling the clutch so it can go straight into the pilot engine is critical.
- get some sort of alignment tool, put the clutch disk over it, push into pilot bearing, put pressure plate over that and meticulously screw in the bolts. I got mine at Autozone but it took someone that new about these transmission alignment tools.
- put the transmission on, if it won't go the last 3/4 inches, remove and get it so the alignment tool will go in/out without any resistance (or almost)
- Once you get that right, remove, torque the clutch bolts to 20lbs and put the transmission back on.

Other things:
- If you have a Crossle Club Ford (maybe others) and you do not have a removable upper cross member in the chassis, it must be machined similar to mine (picture above)
- Another tip I did not use was to use a screw driver through the opening of the Transmission to engine adapter to move the flywheel.
- Before you try to install the transmission, take a small wire brush and make sure the input shaft doesn't have "debris" on it. Since my case was machined this was a good suggestion.
- If handling the transmission is a (back) problem, consider removing the gear stack, especially of you have changed gears before. This will make it lighter to manipulate. I did not do this as I had a borrowed engine hoist with straps which helped not having to lift is so many times. Note, once you start to put the input chaft into the the clutch, undo the straps so you have mo control of the "wiggling".
- Take the rear cover off, where the selector finger is, not the part of the case that has the gear stack. You can get to the input shaft from there and be able to rotate it if needed.
- Make sure you push the clutch disk over the input shaft just to make sure it fits before you put it in the clutch.
- Take pictures of the bell housing and inside once you remove the transmission! If I did this it would have saved me time and I would not question which way the "bobbin" that goes over the input shaft to the release bearing.
- Use this forum! As you can see the response to my plight and these people have seen it (most)all. We share a common affliction (racing) and we need a support group. You guys are great!

Also, thanks to the race shops that I have worked with in the past and helped me with this problem.
- Sasco Racing - tires and vintage racing service and support
- Apex Vintage - vintage racing service and support
- Williams Racing Components - Hewland Transmission/Gearbox services, they rebuilt mine
- Quicksilver Race Engines. Build mine engine and have been really responsive with me making my date and following up and making themselves available.

With that all said, I now have to put the rest of the car together and making the race next week. Hopefully, no surprises here as I have add the rear suspension apart in the past.