So that's it?? No more WGI thread?

[Steve Bamford]

Chris,

Well said & great post!

[CptMustard]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Hopefully this will add some clarity to the discussion.

[DaveW]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Hopefully this will add some clarity to the discussion.

If it doesn't, one would have to be blind! It upset me, and I was only watching the video, not sitting in the car.

[Dennis Valet]

The thing that confuses me is that I was under the impression that WGI rolled an ambulance to EVERY crash that has an impact with the walls, no matter how light the impact. So for me there is a ton of inconsistency with the track rules. Some times they throw FCY and black flag all for minor incidents that clearly don't need a big clean up, but then some times they let big impacts simmer on the side of the track under a local yellow.

I know it's impossible to make the 100% right call every single time, but it would be nice to at least be consistent.

[Parker]

Outsider's Perspective.

Damn! There were a lot of things that went wrong there!

BUT, I can see why no one was jumping over the fence to check on the driver. He seemed to offer lots of non-verbal communication as to his condition.

First, the spinning car did not lock his brakes and rolled backward off of the apex into the second car's evasion line. I've seen this happen way to many times on video and in person. Two feet would have made all the difference in this situation. Had tire contact not been made, the second car would possibly have been able to slow down enough before the wall that turning would not even be necessary.

Second, cars were allowed to go way to fast through there. Needed full course caution to get the message to the drivers.

Third, several drivers went through there at what looked like near race speed and it looked like this happened more than once for several cars. Drivers need to take a lot of the responsibility for safety and not expect to be told when to slow down.

Had someone spun out in that corner because they were spooked by a preceding car dodging debris or because they lost braking/steering with debris under a wheel, they could have been right into the side of that car.

That was scary, and I'm very glad everyone is ok.

[stonebridge20]

If it doesn't, one would have to be blind! It upset me, and I was only watching the video, not sitting in the car.

Dave, It made me sick when I watched it on Monday. It then got me fired up to try and get something done so nobody ever has to go through something like that again.

[cooleyjb]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Hopefully this will add some clarity to the discussion.

Yep, All those people who said the car was off track were obviously wrong. Sorta makes me wonder how 'carefully reviewed' the incident actually was.

And not sure what anyone else is seeing but those movements of the driver were anything but reassuring. That corner worker needs to be fired, he missed the fact the car was on track and that driver was not in a good place. And a tire rolling slowly across the track. Should we ask the Surtees family about tires and open wheel?

Then the safety crew. I've seen better work from volunteer 'first aid' stations at a fun run.

[helipilot04]

If pit lane has the channel and is reporting, start/finish can't get on the channel.

Plus, Start/finish will defer to pit lane, because pit lane was closer.

Reread #35.

Every driver should work communications sometime in a race with 35 cars. Race control can be like the tower at Atlanta Hartsfield.

At the same time:
T1 is reporting that car 101 has crossed over the white line for three laps in a row.
The climbing esses is reporting that car 102 may be leaking fluids.
The bustop is reporting that car 103 has spun and returned.
T11 is reporting waving yellow with contact between two cars.

Mike, I have a lot of experience with radio communications, as well as listening to multiple radios at the same time (army aviation, current prof).. In my time using radios, I agree with your issue of someone over talking or "blocking" a freq.
In Afghanistan We had a simple solution to these issues, because in a time of war, someone in dire need of assistance is more important than a routine report.

How to do this you say? Simple, ONE freq dedicated to "Major" issues.. this radio is being monitored by all important parties on its own speaker, and is LOUDER than the rest.
The term "Major" is defined by the steward, ie.. head on collision and/or no response from driver and/or two cars, in racing line, ...... whatever.. A simple report about a car that crossed a line or passed under yellow, spin and return, oil leaking, etc, goes over regular freq.

In Afghanistan we used this very successfully to weed out normal stuff and key in on real danger..

Having one freq for all radio trans for a track the size of WGi is crazy.

Just a thought on solution..

regards
Bob

[Purple Frog]

Great idea, but I know of no track in North America that has two radio/communications channels at the corner stations.
Most have one hard-wired link to the tower.

Separate of Flagging communications, the Series runs two channels on its own. One is open broadcast for all teams to monitor. One is staff only. But, the Series does not man the corner stations.

Monte,

[stonebridge20]

But, the Series does not man the corner stations.

Then DO IT at the Glen. Invest in the radios and bodies. Put them either at key points on the track or close to stations so no Glen feathers are rustled. Put them on their own radio channel. They would report NOTHING but major incidents.

[helipilot04]

Great idea, but I know of no track in North America that has two radio/communications channels at the corner stations.

Mike, that is a real surprise. The radios I used in the car have way more than 2 channels and can be switched in less than a second while Im in the car. Most two way radios do. How is it the corner stations have only one possible freq? It dosen't need to be hardwired, just available.

All they need is a second freq, quickly switchable to, for a few moments to broadcast the Major incident, then the stewards can act, and the corner station goes back to main freq and keeps reporting so all are on the same page... BUT THE MAJOR incident is now already heard by race control..
Sounds like the corner workers need some good radio phraseology lessons.

Keep it short, concise, to the point. Words have meanings, use the right words. (I can still hear my flight instructor utter these words) Don't say in 20 words when 3 will do..

Thanks for the understanding frog.. just my 2 cents..

Bob

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

I was told that on our return to WGI in the fall, there is a move for the same....more workers but yet we will also be running with VRG. A better group. So where the series can force improvement, they have already begun to do so.

Great! Let's see those "improvements" in print.

BTW: Running with the "better group" VRG, changes nothing !

[iamuwere]

Oddly, I find this video reassuring. He was conscious, communicative. I expected worse from where I was in the driver's seat.

jl

[Daryl DeArman]

I found that lack of immediate response by safety to the scene acceptable since the driver indicated/signaled he was okay.

What I find unacceptable is the pace others are still driving through that scene. I'm not a fan of the circulating under FCY when not necessary, but that driver is extremely vulnerable...and debris are everywhere including the errant wheel.

As to the radio use...I volunteered to flag a corner for the Pacific F2000 pro series several years ago at Fontana. I had a radio where I could only hear/transmit on one channel. The senior worker on my corner had a radio where he could monitor/transmit on 3 different channels. Perhaps that had something to do with Fontana supplying safety and emergency response workers, while flagging was done by another group.

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

I found that lack of immediate response by safety to the scene acceptable since the driver indicated/signaled he was okay.

The driver bent the steering wheel against the dash and had his hand pinned in between the wheel and the dash. That's why he yanked it out and up in the air. After getting the wind back that he got knocked out of him, he tried to get his belts off to get out because he was concerned about fire. He couldn't. I think the "okay" signal you see is him saying a prayer. Trust me, he didn't signal anything to anybody. I did the debrief on Monday.

[rickb99]

[QUOTE=stonebridge20;432956]

.... I think the "okay" signal you see is him saying a prayer.....

The understatement of the event was when the safety person FINALLY got there. He bent down and asked the driver "Are you okay"... Duhhhh! About 20 minutes late guy.

You won't find any of our tracks out here in the Northwest with safety run like that. First of all, the track itself has NO control over the race event from a communications standpoint nor safety. That is all run by the sanctioning body that rents the track. Second, we spend a LOT of time training corner workers as to how to communicate the serious level of anything that happens in their corner including the ability to REQUEST and Red or Black flag.

From what I see in that video, if I were working that corner and the drivers refused to slow through the debris field I'd have requested a Black Flag all. If any driver had slipped even a little I would have requested a Red Flag all.

[iamuwere]

I don't see where drivers refused to slow. All the cars I was near were slowing thought that area. That video show that.

[Steve Bamford]

I don't see where drivers refused to slow. All the cars I was near were slowing thought that area. That video show that.

You can't tell from the video how fast to slow the cars are going after the crash. I was doing about 2/3 -3/4 speed but on the video it looks pretty fast. With that said, even at the slower speed & knowing there was debree in the way it still took effort to avoid based on where it was in the track. You saw cars on both sides of it trying to avoid it.

It looks fast in the video but myself & the car in front of me had slowed down.

[Steve Demeter]

From what I have read the root cause seems to be poor communication from the corner workers to the operating steward. Surprisingly not as uncommon as one would think.

Got me to thinking about a picture someone posted from some sort of model aircraft of a paddock.

Several years ago, I was involved with a guy at Tech Town http://www.daytontechtown.com


At one of the Friday nite parties on the third floor deck, a guy that was showing his large model airplane that was electric, ran about 45 minutes on a charge and had a camera that shot live video to a monitor on the porch.

this thing could easily cover most any track . Of course there would have to be someone to pilot it, but this would be a way to allow operating steward to have eyes on any situation in a few moments and make a decision based on what they see, not what the corner worker sees, translates into words that then are interpreted by the operating steward who has to then make a decision on not very good information.

[Chris Livengood]

I too was at about 2/3's or 3/4 speed going through turn 11 after the incident. The difference between a 90mph mid corner speed and a 70mph mid corner speed isn't identifiable on a video like this. Though I can assure you that the amount of control attained by driving at the slower of the speeds is huge in a corner like that. Keep in mind, it's normally a third gear corner and I was nearly lugging second after the incident.

[SMRacing]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Hopefully this will add some clarity to the discussion.

Right at 42 seconds there are 2 thumbs up from the driver.

That in itself might have delayed response. While I agree that things should have been done differently, if I was sitting there hurt, but conscious, with use of my arms, I would have been waving personnel over.

Of course, here's what comes into play. That was a mammoth hit for an FC. I don't think he is thinking clearly, doesn't realize how hurt he is, but the corner workers are working off of his flawed signals. Regardless, they should have stopped the corner should have called to end the race, i don't care if he was doing a jig on top of his car singing "I am fine lalalala" just because of how huge he hit.

I looked at the car after, the chassis was bent pretty severely to driver's right from the cockpit bulkhead forward. That's as big an impact as I have seen from in an FC all my time in this series.

Initially I thought the driver had gotten out on my second pass by, btw, that's the only reason I could think of we were still racing. It could have been any one of us.

[racerdad2]

One thing for emergency workers to keep in mind is someone can be seriously injured and be feeling no pain or can simply be so stunned as to be unaware or even in shock - denial mode. One can have fractured vertebra, broken bones, serious lacerations - punctures or internal hemorrhage and tell you that they are OK. You can't count on the seriously injured for accurate assessments.

[aims20]

One thing for emergency workers to keep in mind is someone can be seriously injured and be feeling no pain or can simply be so stunned as to be unaware or even in shock - denial mode. One can have fractured vertebra, broken bones, serious lacerations - punctures or internal hemorrhage and tell you that they are OK. You can't count on the seriously injured for accurate assessments.

^+1 to this. People have walked away from serious car crashes before and they feel fine because the adrenaline masks signals of pain for some period of time.

[BLS]

People have walked away from serious car crashes before and they feel fine because the adrenaline masks signals of pain for some period of time.

Exactly. I had a motorcycle crash many years ago that cut off the end of my little finger and broke my left leg. I was standing there feeling no pain - until someone pointed out that I was bleeding and I looked at my finger. That was about 3 minutes after the crash...