Results 1 to 28 of 28
  1. #1
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default "Intrusion panels"

    I know there is many more people on here that know a lot more about intrusion panels than myself which is why I have a question.

    I'm trying to add some type of panel to my Formula Vee

    1. I need the panel to hold me in the car and stop my shoulders from pressing out on the body work when in corners.

    2. Can not be any type or combination of tubes as I just do not have the room.

    3. Would like a little added protection if even possible as this needs to remain pretty thin.

    4. I was trying to stay away from just a aluminum panel as we know this will only really help #1

    The opening is about 11" tall and 24" wide. I will measure exact size later today.

    Thanks for any input
    Mark Filip

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    01.11.05
    Location
    Zionsville, Indiana
    Posts
    3,172
    Liked: 1403

    Default

    What is the body work like on your car?

    I would recommend that you add 6 to 8 layers of Kevlar to the inside of the body work you have. That needs to be done in a single layup, epoxy resin, and vacuum bagged.

    You need to find someone who knows what they are doing. It would be best if you had access to the molds for the body work you have, but it can be done without the molds. You will have to stabilize the body work to do it.

    8 layers will give you the equivalent of .060 aluminum or slightly better, if done right.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    The body side panels are almost completely flat fiberglass and do have Kevlar in them as to how many layers or the process that was done I am not sure.

    How much can .060 aluminum over that opening stop? Is the Kevlar in the glass and aluminum sheet is enough?
    Mark Filip

  4. #4
    Contributing Member
    Join Date
    09.06.08
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    2,048
    Liked: 290

    Default

    "Enough" for what?

    That is your big issue, you have no idea what level of accident you are designing for. Is it worth the effort to do more than the the GCR requirement? What is the frequency and nature of side impacts in FV?

    Lastly, are you that worried about getting hurt? Is all the questionable design effort necessary to prevent the rare bodily injury?

    Brian

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    01.11.05
    Location
    Zionsville, Indiana
    Posts
    3,172
    Liked: 1403

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fvracer27 View Post
    The body side panels are almost completely flat fiberglass and do have Kevlar in them as to how many layers or the process that was done I am not sure.

    How much can .060 aluminum over that opening stop? Is the Kevlar in the glass and aluminum sheet is enough?
    There are 2 types of intrusion protection you need to consider; a broken part from your car or another car. Having something break on your car and become a penetration hazard is the most likely scenario. You should have protection against those possibilities. I make the trailing arm brackets so that a broken rod end will not allow the trailing arm to penetrate the cockpit area. I don't like steering mechanisms that extend into the cockpit as most FVs do. In a very simple crash the tie rod is a hazard inside the cockpit.

    The only practical protection against another car is a nerf bar. On many cars, the trailing arm also serves the function of a nerf bar.

    While .060 aluminum may not be much against a perpendicular penetration of a sharp object, any angle other than perpendicular, the panel will do a surprising job.

    Citation FVs have a 1.25x.065 tube, horizontal between the main roll hoop and the dash hoop. The hoop is about midway between the top rail and the bottom rail. At a point even with the driver's hip, there is a vertical structure between the bottom frame rail and the middle rail. This serves as the trailing arm mount, and a protective structure against the trailing arm itself and it will absorb a very significant impact. The structure is 2 vertical members with the trailing arm mount inside a box between the 2 vertical members. The box is .125 steel.

    If I add the Kevlar to the body I get a reasonably good level of protection. That is how I build my cars.

  6. #6
    Senior Member BURKY's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.04.05
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,650
    Liked: 444

    Default

    I will definitely be adding anti intrusion panel's. Notice the lower front a arm, punctured the cockpit.
    Last edited by BURKY; 11.15.14 at 2:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Fallen Friend nulrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.30.08
    Location
    Lee, NH
    Posts
    913
    Liked: 12

    Default

    We must all make our own decisions about the level of acceptable risk in racing. The SCCA mandates a very minimal level of protection, and I don't think it's fair to judge someone who would like to improve that.

    Even with anti-intrusion bars suspension wishbones break at other points all the time, and you also have pullrods, pushrods, steering linkages, and other miscellaneous parts that can form sharp penetrating objects. In my limited exposure to formula car racing over the last three years or so I've seen at least five accidents where someone has been seriously injured by sharp objects intruding into the cockpit. I've also seen nose cones penetrate an opening between chassis bars and injure drivers.

    Burky's accident looks similar. I've often looked at the aftermath of these crashes and noticed that a few inches either way could have resulted in a much more serious injury (or death).

    There are two things you'd like to accomplish with an anti-intrusion panel: (1) prevent penetration of sharp objects that could impale you; (2) prevent intrusion of larger blunt objects (like a nose cone) that could bruise or crush you. The ideal anti-intrusion panel should do both.

    Eight layers of five ounce Kevlar on the bodywork (or .060" aluminum) will help a little with sharp objects and is certainly better than the required 2 layers, but won't help much with blunt objects.

    Last I looked, the FIA standards for anti-intrusion panels require 10 mm of Zylon (an exotic composite material with many of the characteristics of Kevlar and the strength and stiffness of carbon fiber). I believe the IRL required 10 mm of Dyneema (another ballistic fabric) at one time. F1 cars have 10 mm of Zylon on the outside of the monocoque, which itself is a pretty effective protective structure. That's roughly 8 times as much protection against sharp object penetration as .060" of aluminum or Kevlar, and about 250 times better against blunt object penetration.

    Sharp object penetration resistance is very roughly proportional to panel thickness and the characteristics (tenacity) of the material. Kevlar is very good, as is Zylon and Dyneema. Carbon fiber and aluminum are much less effective.

    For blunt object penetration (sounds a bit kinky, sorry ) you are relying upon the structural characteristics of the entire panel and that heavily depends on how it is mounted. If it's just "floating" against the frame, maybe held on with tie-wraps or sheet metal screws, you'll need a much stiffer panel and it will need to overlap the tubes by at least a couple inches all around. Otherwise it can be pushed into the gap quite easily. If you're allowed to bolt it to the frame (sorry, don't know the rules in FV) then that helps a lot: it both prevents the panel from buckling and prevents it from "falling" into the gap. You can either use U-bolts around the frame tubes or weld tabs or bungs to the tubes themselves.

    For protecting against something like nose cone penetration, the most important characteristic is panel thickness, since that's what gives bending resistance to the panel (prevents it from buckling). To first order, that's proportional to the THIRD power of the panel thickness (so a 10 mm thick panel is 1000 times better than a 1 mm thick panel).

    The ideal panel is one that possesses high stiffness, strength, and tenacity and also has very low density (we can make a thicker panel for a given amount of weight). One way to think about it is to consider an anti-intrusion panel as a catch fence. We need both the posts (which have to be strong and stiff) and the fencing itself (which should be strong and flexible and not break even if stretched a lot). Zylon actually has both of those characteristics, but it's horrendously expensive. Carbon fiber combined with Kevlar is a very good solution.

    You can see (and intuitively it makes sense) that reinforced bodywork won't do much to prevent blunt object penetration.

    You do have a fairly small opening: 11 x 24 inches if I read correctly. For that sized opening, and to protect against both sharp object and blunt object penetration, I would suggest something like a 4-6 mm thick composite panel (composites are VASTLY superior to metals in penetration resistance for a number of reasons I won't go into here).

    For the Radon Rn.10 we used a combination of carbon fiber and Innegra (a low-density and low-cost ballistic fabric used fairly often in F1) to get a thick panel with a massive amount of penetration resistance. You could buy the materials and lay it up yourself in your garage or any of the suppliers on Apex could make you such panels.

    If you need specific assistance, send me a PM. We've done a lot of analysis and testing. I'd extend that offer to anyone who is considering adding cockpit protection panels. Glad to help on design suggestions and potential suppliers. Just don't ask me whether they are legal or not.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    "Enough" for what?

    That is your big issue, you have no idea what level of accident you are designing for. Is it worth the effort to do more than the the GCR requirement? What is the frequency and nature of side impacts in FV?

    Lastly, are you that worried about getting hurt? Is all the questionable design effort necessary to prevent the rare bodily injury?

    Brian
    Brain maybe I should have said "how effective will that be". I'm trying to add the most protection I can and I realize I can not predict what type of intrusion or if there will be one. I happened to know someone personally that has been in a accident in a FV (side intrusion) years ago so even 1 accident is enough to think about improvements.

    I think a person that races has to have screws loose if they never think about getting hurt. Yes I believe the effort is worth preventing "rare injury".
    Mark Filip

  9. #9
    Contributing Member
    Join Date
    12.24.08
    Location
    Cedarburg, WI
    Posts
    1,950
    Liked: 86

    Default

    Are you thinking about some kind of panel attached to the chassis tubes with padding to act as a shoulder bolster? When I bought my Citation XTC it had padded aluminum panels attached with hose clamps to the tubing in the shoulder area. I thought it was cheesy and unnecessary so I removed it all, but a better engineered solution could serve a dual purpose.
    Matt King
    FV19 Citation XTC-41
    CenDiv-Milwaukee
    KEEP THE KINK!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    There are 2 types of intrusion protection you need to consider; a broken part from your car or another car. Having something break on your car and become a penetration hazard is the most likely scenario. You should have protection against those possibilities. I make the trailing arm brackets so that a broken rod end will not allow the trailing arm to penetrate the cockpit area. I don't like steering mechanisms that extend into the cockpit as most FVs do. In a very simple crash the tie rod is a hazard inside the cockpit.

    The only practical protection against another car is a nerf bar. On many cars, the trailing arm also serves the function of a nerf bar.

    While .060 aluminum may not be much against a perpendicular penetration of a sharp object, any angle other than perpendicular, the panel will do a surprising job.

    Citation FVs have a 1.25x.065 tube, horizontal between the main roll hoop and the dash hoop. The hoop is about midway between the top rail and the bottom rail. At a point even with the driver's hip, there is a vertical structure between the bottom frame rail and the middle rail. This serves as the trailing arm mount, and a protective structure against the trailing arm itself and it will absorb a very significant impact. The structure is 2 vertical members with the trailing arm mount inside a box between the 2 vertical members. The box is .125 steel.

    If I add the Kevlar to the body I get a reasonably good level of protection. That is how I build my cars.
    Steve thanks for bringing up broken parts such as the steering arms. I think a lot of people forget that these types of parts can do a great deal of damage. Burkeys picture shows that.

    I have a Womer and I think Ed did a good job with the rear control arms and the where they attach to the chassis. There is some good protection from the rear control arm. The steering arms in a FV is a tough one, is that what lead to the design of the citation front bell crank steering?

    I just figured I have a opening in the side of the car and if I could learn a little bit about intrusion panels it can only be a good thing.

    Very good points thank you for your input
    Mark Filip

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nulrich View Post
    We must all make our own decisions about the level of acceptable risk in racing. The SCCA mandates a very minimal level of protection, and I don't think it's fair to judge someone who would like to improve that.

    Even with anti-intrusion bars suspension wishbones break at other points all the time, and you also have pullrods, pushrods, steering linkages, and other miscellaneous parts that can form sharp penetrating objects. In my limited exposure to formula car racing over the last three years or so I've seen at least five accidents where someone has been seriously injured by sharp objects intruding into the cockpit. I've also seen nose cones penetrate an opening between chassis bars and injure drivers.

    Burky's accident looks similar. I've often looked at the aftermath of these crashes and noticed that a few inches either way could have resulted in a much more serious injury (or death).

    There are two things you'd like to accomplish with an anti-intrusion panel: (1) prevent penetration of sharp objects that could impale you; (2) prevent intrusion of larger blunt objects (like a nose cone) that could bruise or crush you. The ideal anti-intrusion panel should do both.

    Eight layers of five ounce Kevlar on the bodywork (or .060" aluminum) will help a little with sharp objects and is certainly better than the required 2 layers, but won't help much with blunt objects.

    Last I looked, the FIA standards for anti-intrusion panels require 10 mm of Zylon (an exotic composite material with many of the characteristics of Kevlar and the strength and stiffness of carbon fiber). I believe the IRL required 10 mm of Dyneema (another ballistic fabric) at one time. F1 cars have 10 mm of Zylon on the outside of the monocoque, which itself is a pretty effective protective structure. That's roughly 8 times as much protection against sharp object penetration as .060" of aluminum or Kevlar, and about 250 times better against blunt object penetration.

    Sharp object penetration resistance is very roughly proportional to panel thickness and the characteristics (tenacity) of the material. Kevlar is very good, as is Zylon and Dyneema. Carbon fiber and aluminum are much less effective.

    For blunt object penetration (sounds a bit kinky, sorry ) you are relying upon the structural characteristics of the entire panel and that heavily depends on how it is mounted. If it's just "floating" against the frame, maybe held on with tie-wraps or sheet metal screws, you'll need a much stiffer panel and it will need to overlap the tubes by at least a couple inches all around. Otherwise it can be pushed into the gap quite easily. If you're allowed to bolt it to the frame (sorry, don't know the rules in FV) then that helps a lot: it both prevents the panel from buckling and prevents it from "falling" into the gap. You can either use U-bolts around the frame tubes or weld tabs or bungs to the tubes themselves.

    For protecting against something like nose cone penetration, the most important characteristic is panel thickness, since that's what gives bending resistance to the panel (prevents it from buckling). To first order, that's proportional to the THIRD power of the panel thickness (so a 10 mm thick panel is 1000 times better than a 1 mm thick panel).

    The ideal panel is one that possesses high stiffness, strength, and tenacity and also has very low density (we can make a thicker panel for a given amount of weight). One way to think about it is to consider an anti-intrusion panel as a catch fence. We need both the posts (which have to be strong and stiff) and the fencing itself (which should be strong and flexible and not break even if stretched a lot). Zylon actually has both of those characteristics, but it's horrendously expensive. Carbon fiber combined with Kevlar is a very good solution.

    You can see (and intuitively it makes sense) that reinforced bodywork won't do much to prevent blunt object penetration.

    You do have a fairly small opening: 11 x 24 inches if I read correctly. For that sized opening, and to protect against both sharp object and blunt object penetration, I would suggest something like a 4-6 mm thick composite panel (composites are VASTLY superior to metals in penetration resistance for a number of reasons I won't go into here).

    For the Radon Rn.10 we used a combination of carbon fiber and Innegra (a low-density and low-cost ballistic fabric used fairly often in F1) to get a thick panel with a massive amount of penetration resistance. You could buy the materials and lay it up yourself in your garage or any of the suppliers on Apex could make you such panels.

    If you need specific assistance, send me a PM. We've done a lot of analysis and testing. I'd extend that offer to anyone who is considering adding cockpit protection panels. Glad to help on design suggestions and potential suppliers. Just don't ask me whether they are legal or not.

    Thank you very, very interesting stuff.

    Also I tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full
    Last edited by Mark Filip; 01.19.14 at 9:12 PM.
    Mark Filip

  12. #12
    Fallen Friend nulrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.30.08
    Location
    Lee, NH
    Posts
    913
    Liked: 12

    Default F4 anti-intrusion panels

    Sorry, Mark, not an Apex very much these days, have to go through my PMs and delete a bunch.

    Here is the 2014 FIA specification for anti-intrusion panels. It applies to a few different types of cars, but of interest to us is Formula 4, where these panels are mandated to be 12 mm thick. F4 cars are tube-frame chassis that are very similar to FC cars. For F4, the panels must extend forward to protect the legs and feet and would have a few more fasteners.

    (I was a bit surprised when I first saw this document since the layup schedule is basically identical to the Radon Rn.10 panels, but with a slightly different interior fiber. The attachment method is a bit beefier, but very similar. The F4 panels are substantially stiffer than the Radon panels and attached more securely to the frame since they didn't have any rules to worry about.)

    You can see from the design that the FIA experts, who compile and study accidents all over the world, recognized the importance of secure attachment to the tube frame as an integral part of cockpit protection. They also seem to feel that a very thick panel (12 mm) is necessary to protect the driver of a tube frame car. Obviously thicker is better, and without seeing their data and analysis I can't argue with their conclusions, but any thickness you can fit inside your bodywork would be better than what you have now.

    Ironically, these panels would be completely illegal under the current FF/FC and FB rules. Not sure about other classes.

    Nathan
    Last edited by nulrich; 01.06.15 at 4:16 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Thank you for the PDF link Nathan

    It's strange to think safety is sometimes not legal but we wont go down that road
    Mark Filip

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    06.07.10
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Posts
    1,167
    Liked: 49

    Default

    Seeing those FIA side panels makes me nervous about my thin sheet of aluminum. Like most FVs, my frame is also pretty sparse along the torso and leg area. The aluminum panel stops at the front hoop, so my legs are fairly exposed.

    Thanks for starting this thread, it's great food for thought.

  15. #15
    Contributing Member
    Join Date
    12.10.02
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,092
    Liked: 20

    Default

    How much would a 6mm Carbon/Innegra panel weigh vs. .063 Al. ?

  16. #16
    Fallen Friend nulrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.30.08
    Location
    Lee, NH
    Posts
    913
    Liked: 12

    Default Panel density

    Stephen:

    For the amount of carbon we use in the Radon, which is coincidentally exactly the same as the FIA mandates for their panels, a 6 mm carbon/Innegra panel is about 50% heavier than .060" thick aluminum sheet (about 1.3 pounds per square foot).

  17. #17
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nulrich View Post
    Stephen:

    For the amount of carbon we use in the Radon, which is coincidentally exactly the same as the FIA mandates for their panels, a 6 mm carbon/Innegra panel is about 50% heavier than .060" thick aluminum sheet (about 1.3 pounds per square foot).
    Great now I have to loose a extra 8 lbs
    Mark Filip

  18. #18
    Classifieds Super License HayesCages's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.28.08
    Location
    Sagle, Idaho
    Posts
    1,556
    Liked: 180

    Default

    Several have mentioned this: I think FV rules state side intrusion panels can be attached to the frame by any means but the "fasteners" have to be 6" on center. Something about them not being used as a frame stiffening device...
    Lawrence Hayes
    Hayes Cages, LLC
    Sagle, ID.

  19. #19
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.22.02
    Location
    Ransomville, NY
    Posts
    5,738
    Liked: 4362

    Default

    FV racers have no one but themselves to blame for not updating chassis construction, side protection, cockpit opening, and minimum weight rules for the last 50 years. In 2004, I proposed rule changes specifying FIA sized cockpit openings, longer wheelbase, and higher minimum weight. They were very minor changes, that I hoped would be passed, and could start the process of improving the integrity of the cars in the class. There was no interest what-so-ever.

    I would suggest that, unless you are very small in build, or don't care if you are competitive, having modern standards of side protection in a FV is not a realistic objective. You should select another class if you expect those standards.
    Last edited by problemchild; 01.21.14 at 12:59 PM.
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
    2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    FV racers have no one but themselves to blame for not updating chassis construction, side protection, cockpit opening, and minimum weight rules for the last 50 years. In 2004, I proposed rule changes specifying FIA sized cockpit openings, longer wheelbase, and higher minimum weight. They were very minor changes, that I hoped would be passed, and could start the process of improving the integrity of the cars in the class. There was no interest what-so-ever.

    I would suggest that, unless you are very small in build, or don't care if you are competitive, having modern standards of side protection in a FV is not a realistic objective. You should select another class if you expect those standards.

    I do agree with you on this one Greg but this thread is not really about FV it's about learning something about side protection regardless of class which is why it's not in the FV section. I started this to learn about something I have limited knowlege about.
    Mark Filip

  21. #21
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.22.02
    Location
    Ransomville, NY
    Posts
    5,738
    Liked: 4362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fvracer27 View Post
    I do agree with you on this one Greg but this thread is not really about FV it's about learning something about side protection regardless of class which is why it's not in the FV section. I started this to learn about something I have limited knowlege about.
    "Spec" sized side pods are the only way that I see to add real side protection to current FVs. I expect generic foam-filled composite bubbles could be designed to fit on most FVs at reasonable cost. Establishing minimum frontal area/minimum width specs at the front and rear rollbar bulkheads would allow cars to be fitted with generic pods or built with expanded cockpits without penalty.

    Look at pics of 76B March Formula Atlantics to understand the concept. It may be made to work on other cars like Swifts FF/FC.

    Of course, you would be thinking "outside the box" and trying to bring a major change to a class that cannot institute spec tires that 2/3rds of the racers want.
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
    2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    "This is not about FV"

    It's about making a intrusion panel for a car and understanding what type of protection you can add with different types of material. Maybe in my first post I should have not mentioned Formula Vee.
    Last edited by Mark Filip; 01.21.14 at 2:09 PM.
    Mark Filip

  23. #23
    Contributing Member swiftdrivr's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.13.07
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,342
    Liked: 679

    Default GCR references

    I can't find the GCR specs as to Formula Ford intrusion panels and what is required / allowed. Anybody got a link or have the data?
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    08.18.02
    Location
    Indy, IN
    Posts
    6,291
    Liked: 1881

    Default

    9.1.1.B

  25. #25
    Contributing Member swiftdrivr's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.13.07
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,342
    Liked: 679

    Default

    I found 9.1.1 but no B.Any ideas?
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

  26. #26
    Contributing Member
    Join Date
    07.01.12
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Posts
    1,746
    Liked: 473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swiftdrivr View Post
    I found 9.1.1 but no B.Any ideas?
    "9.1.1 Formula Car (FC/FF) Category Specifications"

    "??B FORMULA CONTINENTAL / F PREPARATION RULES"

    GCR - 257 (at least from the February 2013 GCR)

    Within that, it's

    "3. Chassis/Frame"

    "e." 1-4"

    So in full:

    9.1.1.B.3.e


  27. #27
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.28.07
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    744
    Liked: 20

    Default

    Thank you Nathan and Steve for the info you have provided on this subject
    Mark Filip

  28. #28
    Contributing Member swiftdrivr's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.13.07
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,342
    Liked: 679

    Default

    Thanks, guys. Finally found it.
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




About Us
Since 2000, ApexSpeed.com has been the go-to place for amateur road racing enthusiasts, bringing together a friendly community of racers, fans, and industry professionals. We're all about creating a space where people can connect, share knowledge, and exchange parts and vehicles, with a focus on specific race cars, classes, series, and events. Our community includes all major purpose-built road racing classes, like the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and various pro series across North America and beyond. At ApexSpeed, we're passionate about amateur motorsports and are dedicated to helping our community have fun and grow while creating lasting memories on and off the track.
Social