Many planning questions

[bimmer635csi]

Greetings all.

I'll save the intros for another thread and get right to the meat of this.

So I have been reading about F600 all over and have failed to find answers to many questions.

So here's a list of questions I have in the hope that someone here can answer or point me to the answer.

If you don't understand my typing, feel free to ask me to clarify.

QUESTIONS:

1] The GCR states:

There shall be no modifications of any component of the engine unless specifically authorized in these rules.

However, to rebuild an engine, the manual states:

If the stem is within the limit, then replace the guide. Re-finish the valve guide holes in cylinder head with the reamer and handle.

So the GCR does not say that the valve guide hole in the head can be modified anywhere, but it is required to rebuild the engine if the valve guide is worn. Does that mean you have to throw the whole engine away in a valve guide is worn past the limits?


2] The GCR states:

... stepped exhaust headers are not allowed.

But nowhere is "stepped exhaust header" defined. Should this be submitted to the CRB to define it like other terms are defined in Appendix F?


3] Per a discussion I read somewhere, it seems like reversing the engine was forbidden. But I do not see that stated anywhere in the rules. By the way the rules sit, it seems like so long you use the stock transmission, you can put anything in the chain-line to drive the rear axle. So, did I miss a hidden rule somewhere or are you actually allowed to reverse the engine? Or even turn the engine longitudinally and drive a pinion gear with a driveshaft into a bevel gear to turn the axle?


4] Section 9 on Page 364 shows some bodywork detail. It seems to imply that the leading edge of the sidepod must be vertical. Is that true or just a simplified drawing?

This section also says that a maximum of 2.5" from the rear of the tire to the front of the pod is allowed when the wheel is in full lock.

Is that before or after the race that it is checked, or is it both? I ask this because if the tire runs on a lot of camber, the tire has the potential to be cone-shaped after a race and may make a gap of 2.5" turn into 2.6" from the inner edge of the tire.

Which brings up another question. Is the measurement at full lock on the outside edge of the tire, or the inside edge of the tire, or both?


5] The GCR states:

Any recognized ten (10) inch racing tire with any tread width up to a designed 7.5 inch width may be used.

Where is the list of "recognized tires" kept?


Thanks for all the help. If any of this needs to be directed elsewhere, I'd be happy to do that.

Cheers,
Chris Morgan

[Jnovak]

Please see my answers to your questions be low in red, GREAT QUESTIONS. I am glad that someone is reading the rules with an open and creative mind.

Greetings all.

I'll save the intros for another thread and get right to the meat of this.

So I have been reading about F600 all over and have failed to find answers to many questions.

So here's a list of questions I have in the hope that someone here can answer or point me to the answer.

If you don't understand my typing, feel free to ask me to clarify.

QUESTIONS:

1] The GCR states:

There shall be no modifications of any component of the engine unless specifically authorized in these rules.

However, to rebuild an engine, the manual states:

If the stem is within the limit, then replace the guide. Re-finish the valve guide holes in cylinder head with the reamer and handle.

So the GCR does not say that the valve guide hole in the head can be modified anywhere, but it is required to rebuild the engine if the valve guide is worn. Does that mean you have to throw the whole engine away in a valve guide is worn past the limits?
rebuilding to the factory specs as stated in the manual is allowed. Modifications are not allowed unless they are stated in the rules. However you will find that purchasing used but very good engines is much less expensive than a total rebuild. For instance, a set of valves for some engines can cost more than $1000.


2] The GCR states:

... stepped exhaust headers are not allowed.

But nowhere is "stepped exhaust header" defined. Should this be submitted to the CRB to define it like other terms are defined in Appendix F?
you are correct. It should be clarified and or defined. I will write a letter to the crb requesting a clarification. What is meant by stepped headers is that more than 1 diameter is not allowed for the primary pipes. This rule was written to contain costs.

3] Per a discussion I read somewhere, it seems like reversing the engine was forbidden. But I do not see that stated anywhere in the rules. By the way the rules sit, it seems like so long you use the stock transmission, you can put anything in the chain-line to drive the rear axle. So, did I miss a hidden rule somewhere or are you actually allowed to reverse the engine? Or even turn the engine longitudinally and drive a pinion gear with a driveshaft into a bevel gear to turn the axle?
you can do that if you want. This has been discussed within the rules committee and the consensus was that it was legal but not advantageous to build a car like that. There is a statement in the GCR that is intended to make sure that the engines are not turned around and this is for the 2 stroke engines. However, I will ask for a clarification on this just to make sure.

4] Section 9 on Page 364 shows some bodywork detail. It seems to imply that the leading edge of the sidepod must be vertical. Is that true or just a simplified drawing?my interpretation is that it does not have to be vertical. However there are other critical issues that must be complied with. However just because I think that vertical is not required does not mean that I am right. There is a process that is defined in the GCR that allows you to request and pay for a technical compliance review by the club. I suggest that you find and read the "compliance review" section of the GCR. It is a very usefull process and I have used it 3 times.

This section also says that a maximum of 2.5" from the rear of the tire to the front of the pod is allowed when the wheel is in full lock.

Is that before or after the race that it is checked, or is it both? I ask this because if the tire runs on a lot of camber, the tire has the potential to be cone-shaped after a race and may make a gap of 2.5" turn into 2.6" from the inner edge of the tire.

Which brings up another question. Is the measurement at full lock on the outside edge of the tire, or the inside edge of the tire, or both?any measurement anywhere on the tire will do as long as some point on the tire is within the dimension. Tech can measure this at any time during the weekend so If you are designing a car you had better make certain that you are better than the defined clearance simply because of the things you have already mentioned


5] The GCR states:

Any recognized ten (10) inch racing tire with any tread width up to a designed 7.5 inch width may be used.

Where is the list of "recognized tires" kept?there is no list. Any race tire that you can purchase will do as long as it meets the required dimensions. Hoosier currently is the supplier of all the tires currently used.


Thanks for all the help. If any of this needs to be directed elsewhere, I'd be happy to do that.

Cheers,
Chris Morgan

On another note: all of the above comments that I have made are simply my opinions. I am NOT an official of the SCCA and my opinions have no standing with the SCCA.

[Jim Nash]

As for #4 and the vertical front...Aaron Ellis's car has angled fronts to the side pods and has finished on the podium at the Runoffs a couple times. Based on that, I think it is safe to say they are legal. Of course you still have to meet the dimensions as described in the GCR though.

Jim

[bimmer635csi]

Jay >>> Thanks for all the info. I understand you aren't the SCCA chief-of-chiefs, so I won't hold anything against you.

I was honestly just looking for saving heartache on my end and you pointed me in a good direction with the part of the rulebook I haven't read yet.


Jim >>> I thought I'd seen pictures of sloped sidepods, but thanks for the actual evidence.



I need to do some more reading / thinking, but I'm sure many more questions will follow. Thanks for all the feedback.

Cheers,
Chris

[jim murphy]

If you have not already, go spend time with your nearest F600 driver as they work on their car and at the track and learn all you can in addition to the rulebook learning.

HTH,
Jim

[bimmer635csi]

If you have not already, go spend time with your nearest F600 driver as they work on their car and at the track and learn all you can in addition to the rulebook learning.

HTH,
Jim

I've already started talking to Jay since he is about 15 minutes away.

I just have to find the time. That is harder than finding the people.


Thanks for the tip though.

Cheers,
Chris

[jim murphy]

I've already started talking to Jay since he is about 15 minutes away.

I just have to find the time. That is harder than finding the people.


Thanks for the tip though.

Cheers,
Chris

What?! Do you mean that you put work before your road race hobby!!

LOL!!
Jim

[bimmer635csi]

Another set of questions...

6] What is the typical weight of a trailer for an F600 set up?

I'm guessing a 12 foot trailer is big enough, but it is just a guess. The 12 foot trailers seem to have a 3500 pound capacity, so that would be my guess for the weight. I just though some others might be able to provide actual data instead of a guess.


7] The GCR states:

Rear driving axle shall be of solid or tubular steel.

Does this mean magnetic steel or are other alloys of steel allowed also?


8] The GCR states:

There shall be no modifications to the engine/transmission to enable the use of replacement clutch components or assemblies.

Is the purpose of this statement to not allow a clutch rebuild with stock replacement parts? I imagine it is meant to prevent an uprated aftermarket clutch, but the word "replacement" exceeds that definition. Maybe "non-OEM" could be substituted for "replacement"?


9] The GCR states (in regards to roll cage construction):

Proof of use of alloy steel is the responsibility of the entrant.

How is this done? Is this required if the chassis is homologated? Is this the accepted "steel" definition for all steel on the car (in regards to 7] above, as well as elsewhere in the GCR)?


10] The GCR states:

Protective guards made from 1/8” aluminum or 3/32” steel are required

Are these allowed to have louvers or holes? If so, is there any spec for percentage of area allowed to be opened?



To be consistent, I'll stop there.

Thanks again to everyone contributing. By the way, your first name doesn't have to start with "J" to contribute.

Cheers,
Chris

[lancer360]

6. Trailer size is very dependent on what you want to bring. Some bring a small hand carried toolbox and minimal spares and fit in a small 7x'14'. Others (like me) bring a 2000 lbs rolling toolbox, just about everything I think I would ever need, a 12.5' long F600 and now a golf cart in a 36' 5th wheel aluminum trailer. Clint uses a 8.5x28 bumper pull and also brings huge amounts of spares and tools and fits 3 cars in it. Personnaly it drove me nuts at home packing up a little trailer and having to decide what to bring and what to leave home because sure enough the one thing I left at home is the one thing I needed. Luckily with our traveling circus you have a pretty good chance that between Clint, Fred, and I we will probably have the tool you need in a pinch. I have found that there isn't really such as thing as too big of a trailer. The bigger it is the more you will find yourself carrying to the track and the less you will depend on others who may or may not have what you need especially when it comes to spares.

7. As long as it is ferrous based metal you shouldn't have a problem, magnetic or not. If it isn't magnetic, I would probably get a material test report when you buy the material and keep that with your records just in case.

8. Aftermarket clutches are allowed. The intent of the rule was to prevent you from making a modification to the engine/transmission to make the aftermarket clutch fit. As long as it is a direct bolt in replacement of the factory clutch you can use it. Most of us are just using the factory slipper clutch with the GSXR.

9. Short of cutting a piece off the chassis and sending it out for metallurgical testing, their really isn't a fool-proof way proving what the chassis is made from. If you are concerned about it I would keep a copy of the receipt and the matching material test report for the steel you purchased. If it is something other than the normal mild steel like 1018 or alloy steel like 4130 then you could always talk with the technical department of SCCA for clarification on the applicable rules. I do not believe that SCCA has a metallurgical definition for steel in the GCR.

10. The purpose of the guards is to prevent the chain from damaging any vital components or causing injury to the driver. Anything sort of a solid guard would put you in the hands of the tech inspector's judgement call on whether he feels there is adequate material there to stop the chain. I have personally seen what a chain will do to a car when it pops off the drive gear and stays on the rear axle gear. The car looked like it had been attacked with one of those commercial demolition chain saws that will eat through concrete, rebar, etc. Fiberglass body quarter panel was shredded into 1000 pieces, the 0.063 floor pan was torn right through and several other nearby components where taken out including a trailing arm. Be very respectful of the damage several pounds of chain can do spinning at the RPM's we run.

[bimmer635csi]

6. Trailer size is very dependent on what you want to bring. Some bring a small hand carried toolbox and minimal spares and fit in a small 7x'14'. Others (like me) bring a 2000 lbs rolling toolbox, just about everything I think I would ever need, a 12.5' long F600 and now a golf cart in a 36' 5th wheel aluminum trailer. Clint uses a 8.5x28 bumper pull and also brings huge amounts of spares and tools and fits 3 cars in it. Personally it drove me nuts at home packing up a little trailer and having to decide what to bring and what to leave home because sure enough the one thing I left at home is the one thing I needed. Luckily with our traveling circus you have a pretty good chance that between Clint, Fred, and I we will probably have the tool you need in a pinch. I have found that there isn't really such as thing as too big of a trailer. The bigger it is the more you will find yourself carrying to the track and the less you will depend on others who may or may not have what you need especially when it comes to spares.

I was afraid that there was 30+ footers involved. I'm going to have to poke my head in a few trailers before I decide I guess.

7. As long as it is ferrous based metal you shouldn't have a problem, magnetic or not. If it isn't magnetic, I would probably get a material test report when you buy the material and keep that with your records just in case.

Rules like this make me nuts. Seems like there should be some restriction. I imagine I could find at least one atom of Iron in any metal. Does that make it ferrous?

8. Aftermarket clutches are allowed. The intent of the rule was to prevent you from making a modification to the engine/transmission to make the aftermarket clutch fit. As long as it is a direct bolt in replacement of the factory clutch you can use it. Most of us are just using the factory slipper clutch with the GSXR.

Sounds good. Thanks for the clarification.

9. Short of cutting a piece off the chassis and sending it out for metallurgical testing, their really isn't a fool-proof way proving what the chassis is made from. If you are concerned about it I would keep a copy of the receipt and the matching material test report for the steel you purchased. If it is something other than the normal mild steel like 1018 or alloy steel like 4130 then you could always talk with the technical department of SCCA for clarification on the applicable rules. I do not believe that SCCA has a metallurgical definition for steel in the GCR.

I used Ctrl + F and couldn't find a definition for "steel" either.

10. The purpose of the guards is to prevent the chain from damaging any vital components or causing injury to the driver. Anything sHort of a solid guard would put you in the hands of the tech inspector's judgement call on whether he feels there is adequate material there to stop the chain. I have personally seen what a chain will do to a car when it pops off the drive gear and stays on the rear axle gear. The car looked like it had been attacked with one of those commercial demolition chain saws that will eat through concrete, rebar, etc. Fiberglass body quarter panel was shredded into 1000 pieces, the 0.063 floor pan was torn right through and several other nearby components where taken out including a trailing arm. Be very respectful of the damage several pounds of chain can do spinning at the RPM's we run.

I assume you missed the H I added to the quote. I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer, just trying to make sure I understand what you had written. This is another area where I'll have to poke my head around and see what everyone else is doing to get a feel for it.


Thanks for all the inputs above. Now the big question that was just spawned from reading info about Regional vs. National classes.

11] Did F600 become a National (or maybe Majors is more correct now) with the merging of F500?

[lancer360]

As far as the definition of steel there is some vatience in the industry as far as % carbon to differentiate iron from steel, but it does have to be primarily made up of iron. Therefore an aluminum alloy with a small percentage of iron would not qualify.

11. Yes we are now all considered F500 and eligible for all Majors events.

[bimmer635csi]

11. Yes we are now all considered F500 and eligible for all Majors events.

Cool. I asked because at the bottom of the 1st page of the November Fastrack, the grouping is called "F6".
12] I guess that means the new merged F500 and F600 will be called F6 now?

But I also asked because I never know where in the country I'll be living one year to the next. It would be painful to build a regional car and then move to a region that doesn't recognize it. Being a Majors car takes most of that worry out.


13] I also see that the Kawasaki engine is not included in the table. Is that due to the extra 10 hp they claim to have? Seems like that shouldn't matter with the restrictors that are used.

[lancer360]

12. Good catch on that one. I'm not sure if they are renaming the class F6 since the snowmobile engine options now include a 600cc option with the Rotax 593. Might have to submit a letter to the CRB asking for clarification since the fastrack labeled it F6.

13. The Kawasaki was not included because they have made a 599cc engine, or a 636cc engine or sometimes both in recent times. When they were making both, the 636cc was the predominate engine with the 599cc only being made in limited numbers. Short of a tear down it wouldn't be possible at the track to differentiate between the two. Also nobody has shown any interest that we are aware of in running a Kawasaki. If one wanted to, they could put together the published HP numbers and other relevant data and submit a request to include a 599cc engine. The 636cc engine would not be allowed and I'm pretty sure the limited number production 599cc would also not be allowed due to the limited availability.

[Jnovak]

The 599cc kawasaki engines made during the time of the 636cc motors were a limited production race motor. That is why they were not allowed.

[bimmer635csi]

14] Is there any other useful threads related to this "planning to start in F600" line of questions?


A14 = Yes:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...29&postcount=1
Feel free to let me know of others and I can add them here.