Thinking about FSV

[marshall9]

I have been around SCCA for most of my 49 years, and am thinking of possibly buying a vintage car for fun. I own, and will continue to race a 1992 Van Diemen formula ford. I also am considering adding a formula super vee to my hobby.

What is the bang for the buck/resale/fun factor car? Lola? Ralt? Swift? Tui? Etc?
I would like to go out in VARA or some organization like that and just have some fun, without spending a lot of money to do it. Air cooled, or water cooled?

I am not wanting to buy a DB4, or any Atlantic for that matter, nor spend 2K a weekend for tires, nor anything close to that for tranny work and am not interested in the latest engine that is 15K to rebuild every 8 hours, been there, done that. I am asking here for what you guys think is a good value Vintage wise, with decent fields in the Southwest in FSV on, lets say a 20K or so initial investment, with reasonable weekend costs to run.

[Charles Warner]

I am not wanting to buy a DB4, or any Atlantic for that matter, nor spend 2K a weekend for tires, nor anything close to that for tranny work and am not interested in the latest engine that is 15K to rebuild every 8 hours, been there, done that. I am asking here for what you guys think is a good value Vintage wise, with decent fields in the Southwest in FSV on, lets say a 20K or so initial investment, with reasonable weekend costs to run.

Super Vee is expensive on the motors. They are as stressed as a Cosworth or Toyota. And the Hewlands will wear out like any other car. An initial investment of 20k is easily doable but you have to define reasonable weekend costs. The weekend costs will be the same no matter what car you choose. You do not have to get a new set of tires every weekend. The cost difference between F2000 and atlantic on tires is not a major factor.

That said, the best option for vintage/historic IMO is either FF or S2. If you just have to have a Super Vee then an RT-5 1800. If you can see a DB-4 then the Toyota 4AG is a good two year motor if you treat it nice and don't wind the snot out of it. The RT-4 with a Toyota would be the best as the FT-200 is stroinger than the Staffs.

[Albatross]

Not too sure that very much is doable at initial cost of $20 thou. Here in the Northwest you can't buy a descent vintage FF with a fresh engine for that price. However a new set of Dunlops is good for a 5-6 race season.

[Stan Clayton]

Marshall, don't overlook the Zink FSV. They are essentially a Z-10 FF chassis with partial aluminum panel infill. They came in both aircooled (Z-11) and water cooled (Z-14)versions. Zink FSVs are not the handsomest cars (no Zinks are IMO...), but they are sturdy (read: overbuilt) and historically priced right (read: WAAAY cheaper than a Ralt or other more popular FSV). I don't know of any for sale right now, but checking the usual places might turn one up. Cheers, Stan

[Charles Warner]

One thing that will not be a player in your original message:

Resell value? It's a race car! Unless you want to get into the upper ranges of vintage cars that should not be a consideration.

[Robert J. Alder]

One thing that will not be a player in your original message:

Resell value? It's a race car! Unless you want to get into the upper ranges of vintage cars that should not be a consideration.

Huh? It's been my long experience that vintage formula cars hold their value pretty well, better than a new contemporary formula car which often finds itself without a place to race and a diminished value. A vintage formula car that is well maintained seems to hold value and in some cases go up. Certainly in some of the exotic vintage cars (formula or otherwise) with some significant provenance there may be some better appreciation possibilities, but for run of the mill vintage formula cars values seem to hold up pretty good. All four of my vintage cars have held their value or appreciated in recent years.

Specifically re: FSV, yes they all seem to be a much better relative value (speed & sophistication vs. cost). But then again, they are still a bit of an orphan class (regrettably) even in vintage so their future resale possibilities are probably commensurate with their current selling prices, i.e. lower than some other classes. This from someone who knows based on recent experience with a Lola FSV project.


That said, the old adage if you're buying a race car predicated on investment potential, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

[Rick Kirchner]

Lots of FSV running in HSR and VARA, by lots, I mean there's usually 3-4 per event, more at Fontana.

Call Vince Tjmeland at Sabina Preparation, he's been restoring Ralts and Marches for customers for the past several years and can give you a lot of detailed gouge.

The Motors do seem to be finicky, even the 1800s. Seems like a lot has to do with the 80's/90's era electronics.

Air cooled - most guys seem to run a pretty stock 2L with a bit more compression and a decent cam. Trying to build a 1700 SCCA legal motor is just building a car bomb for the pleasure of running around with the FFs at several times the cost. Not a lot of good 1700 cranks left, as they can be offset ground to 2L, which is what has happened to most of them.

[bobmic]

I think 80's Super Vees are very much under valued and a bunch of bang for the buck. There are reasons for that such as a Mark gear box is much less expensive than an FT 200. The drawback of course is that it's also a bit more fragile. If you are hard on gearboxes you will probably spend as much keeping the Mark box together as you would spend on the FT. It has to be much less expensive to keep up an 1800 Rabbit motor than a BD but then you don't get to say your race car has a Cosworth and that's another big piece of the cost/value in an Atlantic. I'm ok with the trade offs and don't expect the value of Super Vees to ever get close to that of Atlantics. I made good money on my first vintage car, a Brabham BT-16 F2/FB so it can be done but I don't think SuperVees are the ticket. I agree they should stay stable or climb slowly and not drop like a contemporary car. Charlie is probably right that the per weekend cost is probably not as big of a factor if you are easy on equipment. If you want to squeeze every last bit out of any race car, it's going to be expensive and probably much more expensive for an Atlantic than a Super Vee. For me the key was entry price and a good number of Super Vees running in VARA and doing well against the competition. I expect you will have a hard time finding a nice car for 20K and if you have to pay someone else to go through it you will likely end up at twice that once it's ready to go. For 30K you may find one that has been gone through properly but turned out to not be what the owner thought it would be after a couple of races. I think a Super Vee is a good choice and hope you find one.

Bob

[revtom]

If you enjoy working on your own cars, there have been a number of solid SV's for sale in recent past for much less than 20K. 3 or 4 RT-5's have sold for 12-13K, in complete running shape, and there was an Argo JM-4 in very nice shape that went for 17 or 18K. If you run a milder cam, keep rev's under 7600, the engines get decent hrs. Run them at 8500, and rebuild every 15 hrs. A set of lightly used slicks from John Bergets are $250. shipped; I use a few sets per Summer. Granted, I am not the most competitive, $$$$ guy out there, but the cost, compared with having a monocoque chassis,quite often ex-pro history, etc., is pretty amazing to me. I'v been running SV's since '95 and back then could not believe how little they cost, verse how fast and fun to drive they were. Still feel that way.

[formulasuper]

Marshall, one thing to remember about the VW watercooled SuperVee engines (and most high strung racing engines) is they are an "interference engine", meaning if you miss a shift & over rev the engine (or the timing belt breaks) the pistons can hit the valves causing catastrophic damage usually destroying the engine. Being a budget racer I decided to cut my loses & swapped out the Veedub engine & drive train with a Hayabusa 1300 & couldn't be happier. Probably not what you're looking for to get into vintage but very fun in SCCA Formula S (Secret)! If you want a RALT Check with Ben Beasley, I believe he may still have 1 or 2 nice RT5 cars available at a reasonable price.
benbeasley4747@yahoo.com

[S Lathrop]

I would recommend a air cooled FSV. The Lola is probably the most common. I only build a few Zink air cooled FSVs. There were only 3 Z11 tube frame cars built and one Z14 aluminum monocoupe air cooled. There were 15 Z14 built and just under 100 Z10 FFs. Converting a Z14 to air cooled is not difficult. Converting a Z10 is more involved but not difficult. I can produce drawings for either conversion.

The air cooled cars were a real pleasure to drive and easy to setup.

As pointed out, you can not build a legal FSV air cooled engine easily if at all because the parts are not available. But a stock type 4(?) engine is externally the same but just larger displacement. You can have equivalent power in a very reliable engine. The Solex carbs and manifold should not be difficult to get. A Rino case transmission fixes a lot of problems.

Connecting rods were the issue with the original air cooled engines. Just replace them and the reliability issue is largely solved. Over revving and bending push rods and valves is a driver issue.

Your tires are FC rubber. Consumable parts for a Zink or Lola should be easy to find as both cars have FF equivalents. The transmissions are the same a FM.

[revtom]

Monoposto Racing rules allow the air-cooled cars to run 2.0L engines. A 2L with reasonable cam and comp. will be long lived, super torquey, and fun to drive. Too much HP, and revs make the case squirm, and that was why, in the day, they were explosions waiting to happen. Air cooled SV's can be found at super bargin prices, as well.

[Stan Clayton]

If you enjoy working on your own cars, there have been a number of solid SV's for sale in recent past for much less than 20K. 3 or 4 RT-5's have sold for 12-13K, in complete running shape, and there was an Argo JM-4 in very nice shape that went for 17 or 18K. If you run a milder cam, keep rev's under 7600, the engines get decent hrs. Run them at 8500, and rebuild every 15 hrs.

That's how I run my 1800...I run a .475" solid cam (not roller) and milder compression (IIRC 9:1 in my case). I shift at 7000 and run it out to 7500 in top gear, and got 32 hours before the engine started getting noticeably soft. True...that's not FA territory, but it kept me on the CSR podium most of the time and was very affordable. And of course, that same philosophy works for any other engine...

I would recommend a air cooled FSV. The Lola is probably the most common. I only build a few Zink air cooled FSVs. There were only 3 Z11 tube frame cars built and one Z14 aluminum monocoupe air cooled. There were 15 Z14 built and just under 100 Z10 FFs. Converting a Z14 to air cooled is not difficult. Converting a Z10 is more involved but not difficult. I can produce drawings for either conversion.

The air cooled cars were a real pleasure to drive and easy to setup.

As pointed out, you can not build a legal FSV air cooled engine easily if at all because the parts are not available. But a stock type 4(?) engine is externally the same but just larger displacement. You can have equivalent power in a very reliable engine. The Solex carbs and manifold should not be difficult to get. A Rino case transmission fixes a lot of problems.

Connecting rods were the issue with the original air cooled engines. Just replace them and the reliability issue is largely solved. Over revving and bending push rods and valves is a driver issue.

Your tires are FC rubber. Consumable parts for a Zink or Lola should be easy to find as both cars have FF equivalents. The transmissions are the same a FM.

My car is a 1975 Z-10 FF converted in 1989 to a water cooled 1800cc FSV engine for CSR. In its present configuration it weighs 1105 ready to add gas and driver, which IMO is really too heavy for its power and IPC brakes (Steve warned me about this a decade ago when I bought the car), so I am considering converting it to aircooled FSV.

VW have quit making the magnesium Type 1 cases, but the dune buggy market supports readily available and inexpensive aluminum cases with all the good upgrades. Combine the alum case with inexpensive forged rods and pistons & big bore barrels, forged cranks and a Rhino trans case, and for less than the cost of a quality Kent rebuild one can be up and running. As Tom notes, the new 2L aircooled engine rules address the longevity and compliance issues, so it's hard to see anyone going wrong with wisely spent FSV dollars.

[marshall9]

Thank you one and all for the opinions, good food for thought.

What I am looking for is probably a unicorn. Speeds north of FC, less than Atlantic, for older FC costs......and I think FMs are ugly. When I mentioned resale, I am not looking for a car to flip for a profit, just one that if I pay x for it, and properly maintain it, will still be worth X later. I really like my FF and the series that I run with, I am thinking of something additional, not instead of. Something that I can tinker with at home, and drag out to California two or three times a year and have fun with, not spending 3-4 K a weekend to do so. I went to an HSR race, here in AZ a few years back, and saw quite a few SVs and thought they were very cool, and they looked, out on the track, challenging to drive well, with the HP, FC sized tires, and no aero tunnels. Like an FC on steroids

[S Lathrop]

Air cooled FSV should be faster than FC but not by much. You will have 10 to 20 more HP and should be 150 lbs. lighter. The wings make the car more comfortable to drive than a FF. Beyond that, there is not much difference than FF or FC for fun and cost.

[Steve Demeter]

Carrillo rods take care of the rod issue with the AC engine.

And at the last 1700 AC cars were legal for SCCA . Arias ad I think Venolia (sp) made some pistons to order for a couple of owners in the 80's. CB performance mastered Bertils last and best cam for me and from what I hear they still have the master.

Do those things and keep the revs under 7500 and these engines lasted forever.

BTW the AC cars after about 1972 used the type IV motor (think 914-4 motor)

[Rick Kirchner]

I had some venolia's made for a 1700 to up the compression. They can make new ones to my specs on file. Looked like a Mahle 1600 unobtanium AC piston but a bit bigger. Last time I bought one it was $400 each though! 1700 pistons with the stroker crank makes the 2L. I also used a cam from a buggy shop that was too radical, left the air filters soaked in fuel from the mixture banging off the valves and floating back up above the carbs.

solexes? toss'em - I had a pair of non-dry sumped 40P11s and they were hard to tune, the dry sumped versions required multiple fuel pumps. bought a set of Weber 40IDFs, had the car running perfectly in less than an hour after installation and setup.

My royale RP-14 SERNO 001 is a retirement project, sitting in a sea van until I have the time.

I'd put their times more at the front of a FF grid though, a modern FC will eat an air cooled car for lunch (except in a drag race, when all that torque and 150 lbs less weight will really make you go "hmmmmm".