Fit engine purchase: HPD or salvage?

[RussMcB]

I can think of a few pros and cons of acquiring an engine from different places, but thought a public thread might help flush out more.

Question: If you purchase the engine from HPD, does it come with all the race parts installed (dry sump, manifold, alternator, etc.)? Or do they come separately and need to be installed by the car owner/shop?

[TimW]

I can think of a few pros and cons of acquiring an engine from different places, but thought a public thread might help flush out more.

Question: If you purchase the engine from HPD, does it come with all the race parts installed (dry sump, manifold, alternator, etc.)? Or do they come separately and need to be installed by the car owner/shop?

It is not dressed by HPD as I understand it. It is a stock Fit engine with several parts you will not use (oil pan, manifold cat, EGR, etc). Its as it came off the line and put in a crate according to their press release and photos. You will need to install the race kit. We did it in an evening. It will require some tools an engine builder would have that I did not (front damper mounting torque is significant thus you need a big bar & socket and a big tool HPD sells hold the crank). You'll also need an impact to remove & replace the alternator pulley.

[gtomlinson]

The HPD engine is a stock FIT engine. It comes dressed to install in the Honda FIT compact car. Mine arrived in a custom wood crate and looked like it had been plucked straight off the assemble line. You'll have a box of stock parts to sell when your done. I'm not sure if the current new engines from HPD come this way or not. Mine was one of the first 10 sent out. You can see pictures and a discription of my conversion process here: http://hondaff.yuku.com/topic/11/t/G...has-begun.html

You'll need to purchase the HPD engine conversion kit to make the stock engine race ready and SCCA legal. Then a chassis conversion kit to fit your particuler FF or design your own installation.

The kits are very complete and can be assembled using standard shop tools.

[RussMcB]

Glen, your blog is very interesting and informative. Thanks for taking the time to share the tips and pictures.

One thing I like about getting the HPD engine over salvage is it would be easier to sell unneeded engine parts on ebay (if they are new, zero mile as opposed to used).

[racer27]

With the recent price spike in salvage FIT engines (Was less then $1000 in Nov) I think you may end up netting the same new vs used, in particulier if you plan on sending salvage motor out to QS to dyno it. I got quoted $1850 of a used FIT, just last week.

[RussMcB]

Here's an '09 Fit engine that sold recently on ebay (in Quebec) for $800 (not including shipping).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/09-Ho...item2ead1fedbc

I'm not sure if it is the right model, which brings me to a question. For ebay ads that don't say, "L15A7", what are other things we can look for to tell us if they are the right engine? For instance, does "3" in the 6th (engine digit) VIN mean or ?

[TimW]

It needs to be the L15A7 engine, which does have those numbers cast into the block & head. Only 2009 and up motors will be L15A7. You can use a donor from an automatic or a manual, but the manual will be cheaper in the long run as you will need a flywheel, clutch assy and pilot bearing to use a motor from an Automatic. The manuals were a bit harder to find since there are fewer delivered that way, but that lack of supply does not drive up the price as there is also not much demand for them either...

I would highly recommend contacting HPD..they have lots of information and if you're exploring the conversion, you're a potential customer. There is also a FAQ posted here on Apex that has the basics. If you're contemplating converting a car, join the racing line and you can see what the member price on OEM parts are (i.e. flywheel, clutch to convert an automatic)

The price of junkyard motors has indeed gone up. I had found one the week before the BoD approved it, confirming it was the right motor, running a CarFax report, etc and didn't' pull the trigger until the Monday after approval. The recycler was 'wow, we got 4 calls on this engine this morning...' but I already had a paper quote from the guy at the original price ($800, 119 miles, + Joe Tovo shipping, netted to ~$550 after selling unused parts, of which some are still for sale) I would say for me if the engine to my door was under $1k with a clutch then it was worth the risk to save the $1500 over the new core. If the savings was under $1k then I'd go new, but thats just my risk tolerance level.

The recycler will sell the starter & alternator separate, not as part of the core. You won't need the alternator as you can use the HPD smaller one which is not too expensive. But you will need the starter.

Tim

[rickjohnson356]

As a friend, I got a question for ya----

Stop and think for a few minutes

Why consider a salvage motor for your conversion? (other than monetary reasons)

Didn't you learn anything from your F1K adventures with the trouble you had with junkyard motorcycle engines? I just don't want to watch you go thru the same thing with this conversion that you did with the last one, on the F1K. You spent so much time getting the F1K to run (at all, much less reliably) that your enthusiasm was all drained by the time you got it done and then just bailed on the project before you got a chance to enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

Yeah, the HPD crate motor may cost more, but you will be starting with a brand new unit-- no unknowns. It will wind up saving you money in the long run.

let me know if you want to talk about it some more, off line: 404-310-4329

[RussMcB]

Wouldn't you think the chances of a very low mileage (like < 1000 mi.) 2009 Honda engine would be problem free? It's kinda hard to think of a problem it'd have. Maybe overheated, or run low on oil, or damaged in a crash? Those all seem pretty unlikely, especially if purchased from a reputable seller.

If it's possible to save $1000 - $1500, I'd certainly not discard the possibility of using salvage engine, especially if it's extremely low mileage.

Also, keep in mind I'm not even sure if I have the budget for a Honda FF conversion yet. I'm still working out the details. A $1200 engine might make it workable, whereas a $2500 engine might push it over the edge.

[racer27]

The two salvage yards I talked to offered a 1 yr warrantee on the engine. Not sure how warrantee would apply to it being installed in it's non-intended application.

At $800, for me worth the risk on something with less then 2500 miles. At double that, the risk reward ratio changes in the favor of waiting a little longer and budgeting for a new engine.

[Charles Warner]

Pay me now . . . . . . or pay me later.

Truer words were never spoken.

[RobLav]

Yes, but Fram does not make very good oil filters!

[Wren]

Pay me now . . . . . . or pay me later.

Truer words were never spoken.

Yeah, but I'm not sure it applies here.

I know I would rather have a 1,000 mile bike motor for an FB than any freshly rebuilt motor out there.

Russ, if you can get the engine for less than $1k, especially if it cranks and you can hear it run first, buy it. It should be just as good or better than one straight out of a crate. You also shouldn't have any trouble reselling it here or on ebay if you change your mind and need to get your money back out of it.

[TimW]

I too was skeptical about going the dumpster diving route. But then HPD was the one suggesting to go that path if I could find one. When I showed them when I found it they suggested to go that path to save some money. The engine I bought had a 6 month warranty (would suspect if it would start & run once then they were off the hook given the new dressing it got). Had access to a dyno to confirm its operation before racing it, but in the end that access was constrained by schedules so didn't run it. I bought it before I made the decision to convert as I figured someone I knew would use it and I could sell it for nearly what I had in it. I bought Northwestern Rose Bowl tickets cheap once on a similar hedge...

To me, if the engine at $550 net was DOA and I lost out on the warranty and had to go buy a crate motor for $2.5k, it was still a bet worth making to save $2k. We'll see how the engine holds up in the long run, but after opening it up to put the pan on I don't think its much worse for wear for the shunt it was in on the long island parkway.

Now if the guy put a hotter cam in the night he bought it which was the night before he totaled it then that could definitely be an issue...but that risk is pretty low...

By the way, that ebay motor posted above had many parts robbed from it which would increase its net cost. It had no flywheel & clutch, no starter, no coil packs, etc. You really want a complete motor with all those parts & a starter for less than $1k to make it work. It also had no cat, which is not used, but does have some value when selling things on the back end.

HTH.

Tim

[RussMcB]

A few quick questions to help me plan:

1. What is the list of parts that can be sold off a new HPD engine (parts not needed in the FF conversion)?
2. What are ballpark guesses about the prices that could be fetched for them?
3. If purchasing a used engine, what are the parts that need to be included?

For the third question, here is my guess:

1. Flywheel, clutch, pilot bearing (assuming car had a manual trans)
2. Starter
3. Coil packs (and wires?)

Not needed on a salvage engine (but could be sold off if included):

1. Intake
2. Exhaust
3. Oil pan
4. Alternator
5. Electronics (harnesses, ECU)

I found a local used engine for $1250 that includes what I need. I may try to negotiate a better price, otherwise new seems the way to go.

[Wren]

Didn't you learn anything from your F1K adventures with the trouble you had with junkyard motorcycle engines?

Junkyard bike motors is all that Brandon Dixon has ever had. He hasn't had an engine longevity problem and hasn't had any trouble finding the pace either.

[t walgamuth]

So what's the cost of all the kit parts needed to convert from Ford to Honda?

[Neil_Roberts]

So what's the cost of all the kit parts needed to convert from Ford to Honda?

http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/rac...formula-f.aspx

That's almost everything, but there will be some additional costs. The most expensive bit was a fiberglass duct to connect the air inlet to the air filter. The electrical master switch must include the additional contacts for grounding the alternator. That's not in the kit. There are also two small LEDs to buy that indicate an ECU error message or low oil pressure. If you choose to customize the installation to your preferences, that's on your dime. For example, I changed some of the fittings and hoses to better suit the hose routings that I liked best.

Once you get past the installation expenses, the bad part is over. Operational expenses are far less.

[t walgamuth]

Thanks for the link. That is pretty informative.

I see that kit is specifically for the Swift. Has anybody converted a Reynard to Honda Power? ....or any other chassis?

There are three prices. The first price...does it include the crate motor or is that purchased separately? And is the third kit required as well?

[problemchild]

The Honda package is not cheap. Like, I expect, most people, I would not advise spending $25K on a car such as yours. There is no kit for your car. The basic HPD parts (crate engine, engine kit, electronics kit, input shaft, and bell housing adapter) will cost $10K+ plus shipping and taxes. Even without factoring in labor costs, you will have a minimum of $15K invested by the time you buy the rest of required parts (plus machinework and fabwork) to finish the installation.

I suggest that you enjoy your car with some modest upgrades. Should you want to triple your investment, buy another car with a Honda, or buy a car that has a kit available for Honda conversion.

Cheers!