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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #1
Bruce Hazelton
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Default Track records vs. Runoffs records

Is there an official reason why Runoffs race records are segregated from track records? It would seem to me that a Runoffs race record would carry more weight as a pure record as for the most part run groups are not mixed. At a National or Major a record could be set within mixed groups by a car of the slower class having a record setting run from a tow off a car in the faster class. With the high level of post race scrutiny at the Runoffs and the level of competition, to me Runoffs records are harder to attain.

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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #2
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I agree. I never did understand this.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #3
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I also agree. A record is a record.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 1:11 AM   #4
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Records seem to be kept by the timing & scoring organization. So tracks that have multiple regions using them, often have multiple records recorded by those regions. I'm not surprised that the Runoffs are separate from the other region records.

I first noticed it at Mid-Ohio around 2000 or 2001.

That always seemed like a great opportunity for the SCCA National office to record/administrate.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 1:36 PM   #5
Bruce Hazelton
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Default track records

Does it really matter what region the record was set in as long as each organization, (SCCA, Midwest Council, etc.) due to different class rules, has their own records. At Road America, Midwest Council records are theirs and they do not recognize SCCA records for example.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 1:57 PM   #6
Peter Olivola
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I think there's one very important difference that justifies separate records for the Runoffs vs. othjer SCCA Club Racing events: Tech.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:25 PM   #7
Bruce Hazelton
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Default Track Records

Peter could you clarify why tech at the Runoffs versus National events is a good reason to keep them separate. With better tech at the Runoffs why wouldn't the usually better lap times have to take a back seat to the slower published National records? As an example my son Reid just reset the FF record to 2:21.037 while the recognized SCCA track record is 2:22.056. He went quicker, passed min. weight, passed fuel check and spent about 4 hours in tech compared to getting weighed, giving a fuel sample and waiting in tech for 30 minutes at a National.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 2:12 PM   #8
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As stated I think the reason is the track records most are familiar with are recored by the regions and there is no region of record at the Runoffs. Run a different sanction with the same rules and beat the existing record and that wont count either.

I got burned at my home track at Summit Point the very 1st time I ever ran a 'fender car' Ran an ITA car and everyone thought it would be a joke. I was running the 1st endure with the car owner as the car driver. The Enduro was Sunday and on Saturday there was normal length races for those who just wanted to race but not punish the car in the Enduro. Our region runs a successful local regional series called MARRS. I broke the ITA record on Saturday and then crushed it during the endure. ( so much for it being a joke). Didn't count even though it was the same track , region, and class, with tech, but it wasn't a MARRS race so the official record stood. I didn't care I knew I was faster. I just wondered how much quicker I could have gone if he hadn't installed rock hard brake pads and changed to a harder , slower tire for durability.

apparently I used the brakes harder then they wanted to be used as the burst into flames when I pulled into the pits
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Old October 21st, 2013, 4:10 PM   #9
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Kevin

Quote:
I broke the ITA record on Saturday and then crushed it during the endure. ( so much for it being a joke). Didn't count even though it was the same track , region, and class, with tech, but it wasn't a MARRS race so the official record stood.
No real plot - many (most?) enduros have noted in their supps that lap records are not recognized. This restriction is imposed because of the multiple drivers and the inability to inspect for compliance during the race (weight, restrictors, adjustments, etc.) e.g. an SM could throw down a killer lap without a restrictor early in the race then 'find' the restrictor at a later pit stop. What ... you drove a tin top????

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Old October 21st, 2013, 4:21 PM   #10
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Is it because for runoffs you can use new tires for the race and not at regional/majors ???
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Old October 21st, 2013, 4:54 PM   #11
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Like I said Terry I wasn't upset but I also broke the record on the Saturday non enduro race but since it wasn't a MARRS it didn't count. When I broke the overall track record the 1st time in 96 they werent going to count it since it was on a Saturday non points race till me dad asked why not ? MARRS weekend, tech, all laps for all cars timed, whats the problem ? 'She' finally agreed and counted it. The supps for the next year stated Saturday records would not count. In the end I got a very nice special year end award from the region for breaking a lap record that the chief of timing and scoring at 1st didn't want to count

I would never have expected for a lap in an endure to count but there was no reason the Saturday lap couldn't have counted but I surely wasn't gonna lose sleep over it. I was just having fun driving something completely different for a change.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 7:12 PM   #12
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It's less of an issue in a class like FF, but the current Fastrack contains a Runoffs appeal decision that is an indication of why the differences between the Runoffs and Majors create opportunities for mischief. The chances that a Majors tech would catch that situation are decidedly less than the Runoffs and that's a fairly minor example of the kinds of things that may be going on.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Hazelton View Post
Peter could you clarify why tech at the Runoffs versus National events is a good reason to keep them separate. With better tech at the Runoffs why wouldn't the usually better lap times have to take a back seat to the slower published National records? As an example my son Reid just reset the FF record to 2:21.037 while the recognized SCCA track record is 2:22.056. He went quicker, passed min. weight, passed fuel check and spent about 4 hours in tech compared to getting weighed, giving a fuel sample and waiting in tech for 30 minutes at a National.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 1:55 PM   #13
Bruce Hazelton
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Default Track records

So Peter as you agree that "mischief' would be more possible at a Majors, then a Runoffs record could be considered more real and should be considered as the track record of the track the Runoffs were held at. I can't see why there would be a problem for someone in Cendiv to update their published records to reflect the Runoffs faster times from the last 5 years. Heck I'd volunteer to do it if they'd let me. Otherwise does anyone know how to pursue this further to get this changed?
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 5:37 PM   #14
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That's probably a conversation with the Area Director, Executive Steward and/or Divisional Points Keeper.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Hazelton View Post
So Peter as you agree that "mischief' would be more possible at a Majors, then a Runoffs record could be considered more real and should be considered as the track record of the track the Runoffs were held at. I can't see why there would be a problem for someone in Cendiv to update their published records to reflect the Runoffs faster times from the last 5 years. Heck I'd volunteer to do it if they'd let me. Otherwise does anyone know how to pursue this further to get this changed?
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 9:14 PM   #15
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I wonder why SCCA does not have a standardized way (and place) to keep track records.
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Old August 27th, 2014, 4:20 PM   #16
Bruce Hazelton
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Default The definitive answer to the question

Finally I can finish this post from almost a year ago. According to Terry Ozment, SCCA Vice President, Runoffs records were always kept separate from track records because way back when the Runoffs were at Mid Ohio, they ran a different track configuration from what was used for National events. The practice continued even though it was not necessary at any other Runoffs track. She has assured me that going forward there will not be two listings.
After I asked the initial question, I took the last 5 years Runoffs records and compared them to Road America's track records and updated them when necessary. Below is what was submitted to Terry and those faster Runoffs records are now on the CENDIV website with the exception of SSB and SSC. They are not correct but they have been notified.

As you can see in the spread sheet below the classes and current RA records are on top. Each year is on the left and the fastest times are all highlighted in red.
There are only 2 RA records that would stand over Runoffs records.
Records have been broken 51 times in the last 5 years.
In 2009, 7 Runoffs records surpassed the existing RA track records.
2010 saw the most records set with 16 Runoffs records beating the RA or previous Runoffs records; 5 of which are still fastest today.
In 2011, 9 records were reset; 6 of which are still fastest.
2012 saw 12 records broken and 11 of those are still the best today.
In 2013, 6 bettered RA and previous Runoffs records and are fastest yet today.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Road America Track Records.pdf (198.7 KB, 54 views)
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Old August 27th, 2014, 5:10 PM   #17
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I drove or engineered for drivers at Mid Ohio runoffs several years between 96 and 2002...and we ran the "club" course as used at all the nationals (using the chicane before the keyhole). Not sure when the "pro" course came into use at club races.

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