F1000 Rules Proposal

[glenn cooper]

believe my good friend from Green Bay (Mike B) has nailed it.
Look no further than CSR/DSR for proof.

The way I see it is all we gotta do is get Loshak a new Honda Civic to run in F Prod - problem solved!

[JohnPaul]

Who said anything about F2000 levels?

We'll if you restrict a typical 165 hp gsxr down 5-10hp aren't you at f2000 levels?
If I'm missing something here or if there are other plans enlighten us.

[Mike B]

The only thing that'll happen is the FA's will get slowed to our speeds. Big deal more people to race with.
Personally I don't believe that they will ever be consolidated

If you have some inside information on this, then I apologize. However, I'm not a gambler. If I can take some action to improve the odds of my desired outcome (not combining with FA in this case), I will. That's much better than leaving it to chance and hoping I'm right.

Bottom line is, you don't know if they will or won't combine us if lap times continue to converge and you don't know if they'll slow down FA or signifcantly change the F1000 rules.

Proactive steps by the F1000 community tip any uncertainty in our favor.

[Mike B]

We'll if you restrict a typical 165 hp gsxr down 5-10hp aren't you at f2000 levels?
If I'm missing something here or if there are other plans enlighten us.

Please reread my post about rumors and flat out false information.

[ghickman]

Mike B. if it isn't 5HP what will it be? It has already been said that the Suzuki will have a restrictor so a reduction is coming...right? I know Geo. Dean has done the testing and I've seen the numbers.

And yes the Kawasaki is heavier. A dry sump system will add another 15 to 20 lbs. As of yet it won't run on a wet sump. I know this because we are building 2 Kawasaki powered cars right now.

[Jnovak]

Mike B. if it isn't 5HP what will it be? It has already been said that the Suzuki will have a restrictor so a reduction is coming...right? I know Geo. Dean has done the testing and I've seen the numbers.

And yes the Kawasaki is heavier. A dry sump system will add another 15 to 20 lbs. As of yet it won't run on a wet sump. I know this because we are building 2 Kawasaki powered cars right now.

Gary, your car weighs 780lbs with a GSXR. If the Kaw engine weighs 15 lbs more. Who cares?

The restrictors that George tested were actually given him to test for the new P2 class where they have a specific HP to weight target. As I am a member of the P2 ad hoc committee I know this for an actual fact.

FB does not have a target power to weight ratio? Contrary to your many comments, no one wants to slow the cars down to FC times. We simply do not want them to get any closer to FA. You obviously have a problem with any idea that does not fit with exactly what you want.

[ghickman]

Gary, your car weighs 780lbs with a GSXR. If the Kaw engine weighs 15 lbs more. Who cares?

The engine weighs more and the addition of the dry sump which weighs 15-20 lbs. in itself. Trust me it's a weight penalty.

Sure I can build you a PRW chassis that you can plug the Kawasaki in and still be well under minimum weight. I'm not concerned about my ability to build a car light enough to take this penalty. But why would someone want to buy a Kawasaki and choke it down in HP and add weight to their current car? Not everyone is driving cars that have the luxury of adding ballast.

I PROPOSE that we ask the SCCA to delay the restrictor implementation for 1 year. This will give ALL of us more time to come up with a restrictor sizing that will work for at least 2 of the top engines. I would like to test several sizes of restrictors in both SUZUKI & KAWASAKI powered cars and give some real life feedback.

Oh and I forgot to mention. I'm working on a wet sump for the Kawasaki but need time to test it in a car.

[Mike Devins]

fastest FA lap at the runoffs this year in FA was a 2:01.8, fastest in FB was 204.78.

How does it compare at shorter tracks.

Many of you may not have followed what happened to CSR/DSR and S2000 and it's eventual consolidation but I can tell you the car owners do not have to support it to make it happen, the decision was out of our hands. We will now have 1000# 1 ltr cars competing against 2.5 ltr 1475# cars in P1. We are hoping for the best.

[Thomas Copeland]

I think we are a long way from restrictors at this point. They would need to be tested before we could implement anything like that so that means they would be at least a year off at a minimum. i would resist any restrictors on the Suzuki as I would consider this the baseline HP we would want to work from.

Much more immediate is the need to add weight and open up the ECU rule. Until these two items at dealt with we shouldn't even be discussing restrictors.

[ghickman]

I think we are a long way from restrictors at this point. They would need to be tested before we could implement anything like that so that means they would be at least a year off at a minimum. i would resist any restrictors on the Suzuki as I would consider this the baseline HP we would want to work from.

Much more immediate is the need to add weight and open up the ECU rule. Until these two items at dealt with we shouldn't even be discussing restrictors.

Thomas
According what I've been told we are facing restrictors this coming season NOW.

Please lets not go down this weight thing again, we already lived through that. Just build a lighter car like everyone else and be done with it.

I happen to like the open ECU idea but lets deal with one battle at a time here.

[Thomas Copeland]

Had to quit writing and wait until I got back home to finish.

Anyway, point is restrictors are a long way off if they even ever do get implemented. The chicken still has to come before the egg.

First there has to be engine capable of extraordinary RPM/speed in this class before we can consider any kind of engine restrictors. The Suzuki and the Kawi in my mind, neither fit that bill.

I would consider the topics to be in this order and this timeframe:

2013-2014 off season: 1. Weight (do we add add) 2. ECU (do we allow other than stock)

2014-2015 off season: Revisit those two if the answer is no on either of them.

2015-2016: off season: Restrictors, if needed. Test during 2016 season if needed. if not table until later.

[Thomas Copeland]

Gary, I am firmly against any restrictors this off sesaon. It seems way too early. If the concern the BMW let it finish a race first.

[ghickman]

Gary, I am firmly against any restrictors this off sesaon. It seems way too early. If the concern the BMW let it finish a race first.

Dude I'm against restrictors EVER. But I think I'm on the losing end of that battle.

I've been hammered with PM's about all this.

All I want is a 1 YEAR delay to get it all sorted out.

[Mike B]

Much more immediate is the need to add weight and open up the ECU rule.

Why?

[ghickman]

Why?

Because they struggle to make minimum weight....pretty simple build a lighter car so big boys can make minimum.

Do the correct engineering and it can be done. Look at the Phoenix, Citation, JDR, Piper.

[JohnPaul]

Increasing weight to accomodate heavy cars is BS. Increasing weight to accomodate and equalize a new bigger HP engine is a different story. If you have a car that is over weight with a gsxr you can lose weight in the car and in your belly. There are plenty of guys that got grossly overweight cars to minimum weight or close to it. Honestly manufactures should'nt build cars that can't meet min weight with at least a 200lb driver. And if you are dumb enough to buy one it's your problem

[Phil Creighton]

As the outgoing Director for the SE Division, I don't even see any rules changes being recommended for this class next year at the next meeting.

If you want to hear a bit of philosophy from the top in no particular order -
1/.while its nice to discuss these things here - none of it is classed as input to the appropriate advisory committes and CRB. Most Directors don't look at Apexspeed unless a flaming war breaks out. Communicate with the FB committee - posting here does not count although Jay and others frequent the forum.
2/. There is a sentiment out there (as it was with DSR) that we are scaring off potential customers because the cars are too fast for the drivers we have in the Club - on average!!! 2.04's at RA with a tube frame car has had the same mental pause as the 2.00 (non tucker) DSR times. When the times were firmly between FA and FC at 2.06/2.07 it was more of a progression.
3/. As in F600 we are concerned with ongoing bike motor development for two reasons, cost and speed escalation. We tried to introduce a restrictor, for just this reason, at the onset of the FB rules and the SIR just didn't work.
4/. If you get these cars into good FA times and numbers drop off you will put yourselves firmly in the sights of those that want fewer classes

For the future - my suggestions are a lot like Jays
Forget rev limiters.
Find a workable flat plate type restricter that pegs HP at a level TBD - maybe 07/8 GSXR
Up the minimum weight 10-15 lbs for the type of driver we actually have (not 175lbs!) Those that have done a better job can put ballast where its more advantageous.

Nobody will be dis-enfranchised so there's zero reason not to buy a car and get out there.

Phil

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd like to learn more about the flat restrictor plates and how they effect an engine.

Specifically:

When you take a flat plate restrictor and place it over a port to limit the amount of air the engine can take in (restricting peak HP) what happens to the HP/TQ curve below that peak?

Does the increase in charge velocity everywhereelse in the rpm range increase HP relative to the larger unrestricted port at that same rpm?

Is it important to have the restrictor orifice the same height as the stock port, just narrower (not a round hole) so that that restrictors' vertical position across that port can not be manipulated for benefit?

[Nicholas Belling]

well said phil !

[Daryl DeArman]

Nobody will be dis-enfranchised so there's zero reason not to buy a car and get out there.

I respectfully disagree. There's zero reason to restrict the HP of currently legal engine packages or to increase the current race weight of some cars while not increasing others except to "disenfranchise" a sub-set of the class.

As one person closely associated with a chassis manufacturer stated in another thread "don't penalize those who have done their homework and made the right choices"

[JohnPaul]

Please reread my post about rumors and flat out false information.

Ok so let me ask you directly since you are probably involved with the FB committee and to avoid any rumors and flat out false info: is the committee talking about restricting, aka "slowing down" the 07-08 gsxr? Or just newer more powerful engines?

[Thomas Copeland]

Actually Gary, our new car does make minimum weight so no need to get lighter. In fact we might actually end up being the lightest FB car in the field if our calculations are correct.

But in not wearing my Firman hat here.

Honestly, I would not like to see any changes at all. I would like to keep everything exactly like they are. No change. Nada. But I'm also a realist.

I think I wrote this before. As far as I know there are no changes pending. But I think upping the weight should be considered. The rest can wait.

Can we just focus on the pros and cons of adding weight?

I would like to know why it isn't a good idea.

[SEComposites]

As one person closely associated with a chassis manufacturer stated in another thread "don't penalize those who have done their homework and made the right choices"

Same goes for driver weight!

[Daryl DeArman]

Same goes for driver weight!

I agree....I'm down to 180 from 195 back in March. Looking to get back to my racing weight of 165 before I return to a car. NO, my weight is not my excuse for keeping me out of a car. My daughters' HS years and Club Sports is what deserved my weekend attention. Youngest going off to college next year on a full ride DI athletic scholarship...a car isn't too far away.

[ghickman]

I agree....I'm down to 180 from 195 back in March. Looking to get back to my racing weight of 165 before I return to a car. NO, my weight is not my excuse for keeping me out of a car. My daughters' HS years and Club Sports is what deserved my weekend attention. Youngest going off to college next year on a full ride DI athletic scholarship...a car isn't too far away.

That's pretty cool Daryl, you'll be an empty nester with some dough left over.

The 2013 Phoenix Race Works car doesn't discriminate for height or weight. You can be 6'-4" eat pizza, chicken fried steak and drink beer and still make minimum weight.

[Mike B]

Ok so let me ask you directly since you are probably involved with the FB committee and to avoid any rumors and flat out false info: is the committee talking about restricting, aka "slowing down" the 07-08 gsxr? Or just newer more powerful engines?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. Seriously, I was more referring to your statement "typical 165 hp gsxr"

But I think upping the weight should be considered.

One more time: why?

[Wright D]

One more time: why?

Because the new Phoenix is so light that it has a competitive advantage.
A 250lbs+ driver makes weight in our base model car. Gary, Tony and I have poured all of our experience and engineering know how into making the safest, lightest, most competitive F1000. Every element was scrutinized for weight, strength and cost.

[KenT]

The final numbers are out. FB is 11th in participation and the 4th open wheel class. Great job.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...tion_FINAL.pdf

[Jnovak]

Well done!

[theTTshark]

Thought I'd add some input into the restrictor debate. I've done Formula SAE for the past 5 years and have seen the issues a restrictor can cause. Granted FSAE is a little severe, 20mm for a 600cc engine is a pretty small restrictor. The amount of tuning it takes to get the engines to just idle is pretty ridiculous in and of itself. Every FSAE/FStudent team I've seen has some variation in the way they make their intake. Luckily for FSAE, we're in corners for 75% of the lap so horsepower advantages don't really gain you much. But I could easily see an arms race in F1000 if a restrictor was implemented. Not just from a standpoint of intakes becoming more expensive, but the designing of intakes would be an engineering arms race as well. You could see people with access to programs like Ricardo Wave dominating the intake race, while others simply don't have the money to buy expensive analysis programs. Even after having programs like this though, you can still easily have dozens of intakes to test. Not to mention the effects that exhaust design could have on a particular intake. It starts getting out of hand pretty quickly. And at the point where you guys are talking about adding weight to the minimum weight, you're already showing that you don't want an engineering arms race of ridiculous proportions.

But that's just my 2 cents. Regards.

Trent Strunk

[Rennie Clayton]

Thought I'd add some input into the restrictor debate. I've done Formula SAE for the past 5 years and have seen the issues a restrictor can cause. Granted FSAE is a little severe, 20mm for a 600cc engine is a pretty small restrictor. The amount of tuning it takes to get the engines to just idle is pretty ridiculous in and of itself. Every FSAE/FStudent team I've seen has some variation in the way they make their intake. Luckily for FSAE, we're in corners for 75% of the lap so horsepower advantages don't really gain you much. But I could easily see an arms race in F1000 if a restrictor was implemented. Not just from a standpoint of intakes becoming more expensive, but the designing of intakes would be an engineering arms race as well. You could see people with access to programs like Ricardo Wave dominating the intake race, while others simply don't have the money to buy expensive analysis programs. Even after having programs like this though, you can still easily have dozens of intakes to test. Not to mention the effects that exhaust design could have on a particular intake. It starts getting out of hand pretty quickly. And at the point where you guys are talking about adding weight to the minimum weight, you're already showing that you don't want an engineering arms race of ridiculous proportions.

But that's just my 2 cents. Regards.

Trent Strunk

Trent:

What you describe is accurate for SIRs. Not, however, for IIRs as generally provisioned for in F1000.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Marty Nygard]

Hi Trent,
The restriction orifices proposed for FB as well as the revised motorcycle powered sports racer classes are generally individual flat plate washers placed in the stock intake rubber boots; either between the throttle plates and the head or between the airbox and the throttle. I don't think anyone is going to be spending too much time playing with the inlet manifold because (I think this is true) the stock component must be retained. More than likely, all that will be required is recalibration of the fuel curve.
In an absolute sense, these Individual Inlet Restrictors (IIR) do not act like the FSAE single restrictor since they will generally not go sonic.
Marty

[Mike Devins]

Carburetion and fuel injection are unrestricted I don't think anyone is going to be spending too much time playing with the inlet manifold because (I think this is true) the stock component must be retained.

from the FB rules "Carburetion and fuel injection are unrestricted" so maybe they will.

[LLoshak]

Engine durability:
FB and DSR engine reliability has increased dramatically over the last few years. As many know, the first wet-sump pans had a serious design flaw in the oil pans and p/u's.... ONCE the cars started developing more grip. That issue has been solved. Most racers and manufacturers run our new design and no issues regarding oil control per many, many hours of data review in the JDR and my WF-1.

MOST (90% IMHO) engine failures we see are generally.... Learning. Mistakes. The effect of a cause (loose oil cap, pinched breather hose, oil line failure, coolant hose failure, Air/Fuel).

It is worth mentioning again... The engine I just won the runoffs with was the engine that was put in the car for Watkins Glen. Then ran at the Cat national, the regional at RA for testing and the entire runoffs. Revving to 13K sometimes more. This was a motor purchased from Ebay for 2300 and sent to Moon Super Cycle for his basic FB build and dyno tune. * cars in FB field with MSC power none failed. There are 2 competitors that had issues with multiple engine failures this season and BOTH of them will honestly tell you they were all self inflicted failures.

[LLoshak]

Costs:
Oh geez, here we go again. In my experience, "Costs" are always brought up to try to change a rule when you run out of or don't have any facts. Now don't get upset. Take a breath and please, please understand... Racing will NEVER be cheap. No changes actually save anyone money. Why? Because even with these changes, guys like Jose, JR, myself will take those changes and spend the money to develop the most juice we can squeeze from that fruit. Regardless of what the changes will be. Fact.

Take a look around at other classes before you start talking about engine costs. Im still involved in prod, I know many in SM, I was in DSR, raced in AS, and experience in Sprint cars, S2000, IT, Ice racing, other formula cars, time attack monsters.... Please understand im not trying to brag or make me look like the all mighty. Im humble. Im just trying to explain from experience, that FB has got costs pretty damn low!

5-6K for a runoffs engine including a core? AND it includes a transmission?? Are you kidding me? BRILLIANT.

Brand new, top flight cars that can make weight with a 200-220lb driver for 50K race ready?? AMAZING.

[LLoshak]

Suzuki Vs. Kawi Vs. BMW:
I love my MSC Suzuki's. Never for a second considered a Kawi or def not a BMW. What I've learned over the years of racing is this: Most will take 95% of their development and money and throw it under the hood. HP doesn't help you with grip, balance or braking. And my engine made avg hp from MSC. We've seen a couple make more. But were talking 2-3 hp. Which another thing I've learned. It doesn't mean anything. Dyno's read different everyday because of temperature of oil, air, the dyno, the tire, the tire psi, the compound, the diff exhaust, the intake filter, the oil viscosity, the clearances, the trans clearances, the chain tension, the wheel bearings, the.....

But what I can tell you. Once you can stop looking at the gauges and spend less time under the hood. And allocate your development and time toward finding the balance and grip that suits you, you will find seconds in your lap time. Perfect your setup, perfect your tools and processes to be able to repeat setups. This will reward your lap times but most importantly, your consistency while on track. Do not get wrapped up on top speed and then results will come. Never forget that the speed you carry through a corner is dramatically dependent on the speed reached on the straight. Many of you already know that, probably all. But we also know if we ate better and didn't drink soda, we'd all be lighter and healthier but we still don't do it.

Power of the BMW. Well, its the only engine IMHO that I believe has and advantage. And the only one that should get a restriction or weight penalty. Im 100% positive if we threw a BMW motor in the JDR or any motor for that matter that had 190whp we'd get in the 3's at RA. 14K and 20hp is a big advantage. Sorry fellas to those who have done the work... But you only did it because you knew exactly this: 14K and 20hp is a big advantage.

Do not ignore that BMW only produces <120,000 bikes per year for the entire world and that all models. If you're worried about engine supply for the GSXR's you're kidding yourself think BMW's S1000RR engine will always be readily available. If you're going BMW or have, sorry that was your choice and don't act surprised, you knew what you were doing.

As for the Kawi Vs. Suzuki, not enough of an advantage today to go tearing apart your cars IMHO. I haven't. Actually a disadvantage when you through away all the development everyone has contributed toward the Suzuki.

I can guarantee, I don't car who you are. If I spend a day with you at the track, watching videos, looking at data, help set-up your car with your open-mind and willing to learn... I will, WE will shave seconds off your lap time.

[LLoshak]

More to come... Not even close to done yet.

[reidhazelton]

I can guarantee, I don't car who you are. If I spend a day with you at the track, watching videos, looking at data, help set-up your car with your open-mind and willing to learn... I will, WE will shave seconds off your lap time.

Wow.

[LLoshak]

DSR/CSR... FB/FA... Consolidation:
Yeah, its scary. I left DSR because I saw the writing on the wall and the fully built motors were getting out of hand. Not to mention 900lbs. But the consolidation is what pushed me over the edge. But it also has to be noted if we slow down to FC times, well, we could be combined with them too. 2:05's is a good time for FB. Yes, I was blessed with a 2:04 but IMHO it was a perfect lap. Not sure if I could do it again. But I do know, I could run low 2:06's and a couple of 5's all day. And that's what wins races right? Again, nothing about me, trying to stress the importance of a setup and finding the comfort/the balance that allows you to carry more speed. But, naturally, most of you are thinking... I've already done that. Well, ok. Just please realize JDR did nothing to the car accept minor suspension and aero adjustments to allow me to drive the car 2+ seconds faster than I could at the Sprints.

BUT, what I do see, is a HUGE interest in FB. Especially guys in FA. You cant ignore the bag for the buck. And most importantly, these cars are much easier to maintain and more basic in nature allowing father/son, wife/husband teams compete. That's HUGE.

So to stry what has grown the class and ignore the growth is a mistake. The rules the way they are is huge reason of the results. F1000... 1000cc/1000lbs and 1000's of reasons its awesome.

[LLoshak]

Wow.

Reid, again, its not about me. I'm nobody more than you or anyone else. The point I was trying to prove, is time is out there. And 2 minds are greater than one especially when working together. Willing to learn.

What Reid, you think if you and I got together we couldn't get me to go faster or you in your car? Im sure you agree.