Let's fold FST into FV

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

One thing I would like to add to this topic is my appreaction for all of the work that the long time Vee guys have put into this class. I know we don't all agree on everything but I do want to mention that I feel people like Steven Davis, Brian McCarthy, Deitmar, and all of the others that I am not thinking of right this minute, have put there heart and soul into doing the best job possible for FV and I truly appreciate that. FV is, and has been, a great class because of the efforts of these, and countless other, people.

[Jphoenix]

One thing I would like to add to this topic is my appreaction for all of the work that the long time Vee guys have put into this class. I know we don't all agree on everything but I do want to mention that I feel people like Steven Davis, Brian McCarthy, Deitmar, and all of the others that I am not thinking of right this minute, have put there heart and soul into doing the best job possible for FV and I truly appreciate that. FV is, and has been, a great class because of the efforts of these, and countless other, people.

[rave motorsports]

Just for the record over the last year we have been shopping for good buys on FV & FST chassis slider and otherwise so I have a stash to convert or sell out here in the Midwest. With so many sitting its been a buyers market. We look at it as an investment so I have cars available in all price points to build FST. In the short run yeah I'm guilty of not putting everyone I have on track. That doesn't mean they won't be on track in the next 12 months.

[BLS]

Checking today, there are 50 FV runoffs entries for the 50th anniversary of the runoffs during the FV 50th anniversary year...


FV is the 3rd largest class, SRF at 53 and SM at one gazillion or so.

[Amon]

Maybe everyone is getting one last blast in before it heads west ?? I 'm curious as to
how many go to Laguna next year as compared to previous Vee and overall totals.

Mark

[mmi16]

I wouldn't say that FV is dying, or I would not have bought one!

That said, it has certainly declined from about a decade ago.

And since the peak figures from the 80's - how many additional classes have been added to the program - both National and Regional only, that syphon of participants.

[Stan Clayton]

And since the peak figures from the 80's - how many additional classes have been added to the program - both National and Regional only, that syphon of participants.

New classes that syphoned off FV competitors since the 80's? None.

That said, Formula Ford syphoned off tons of FV competitors throughout the 70's, but both classes were already in decline by the early 80's. Spec Renault attracted mainly FF competitors, though it surely must have syphoned off some FV competitors.

[FVRacer21]

New classes that syphoned off FV competitors since the 80's? None.

I think he means classes that have been added in since the 80's that drivers would have looked at, who might have considered FV in the past.

The biggest one is Spec Miata - it is the FV of the 90's and 2000's

Spec Racer did take some from FF and FV.

All the IT classes had an effect.

The big issue is the playing down of the Formula Ladder since Spec Racer came on line. The emphasis was put on sports racers, but that died with Shelby CanAm and the allowing of monocoques in S2000. So Spec Racer became the beginning and ending for Sports Racers. (with the exception of a brief DSR revival) - Will the new class structure work? - to be continued....

At the end of the 70s the stars were FF, GT1, the top Production classes (with the GP44 vs Bob Sharp cars here in the NE) and FV was the ticket you had to punch on the way to FF - very few jumped right into FF... Note how Indy Racing and CART went - so went formula racing.....

ChrisZ

[rave motorsports]

There has been one person noticeably absent from this discussion and I for one would appreciate her opinion. I sincerely would like to know what she thinks. With Lisa Noble owning a legendary FV shop and being our Grand Poohbah of SCCA I truly would like to hear what she has to say. I understand all the political ramifications of her involvement but I also think she has the opportunity to be a uniting factor in the discussion.

[BLS]

Jim, Bill,

Thanks for the comments about the front camber control on the BJ beam. I did not realize the BJ trailing arms were significantly stronger than the LP arms. I did know any play in the link pins would transmit into bad (+) camber changes, but hadn't thought about the fact that the BJ beam would eliminate that.

Just curious, are the BJ torsion arms the same diameter on the inside - the bushing and needle bearing diameters? I suspect not.

Thanks,
Barry

[sracing]

Just curious, are the BJ torsion arms the same diameter on the inside - the bushing and needle bearing diameters? I suspect not.

The upper beam on the BJ is the same size as the upper on a LP. However the lower beam is slightly bigger. The beam tubes are slightly farther apart vertically on the BJ beam also.

BJ beams are also all needle bearing beams. (at least all I have seen.)

[BLS]

Thanks Jim!

[Tiago Santos]

I'll just bail out of the conversation of whether a competitive engine costs over $10K because I don't think we're being realistic stipulating "new" and including exhaust, etc. All I know is that I can buy a Runoffs proven and capable COMPLETE car for the price people are claiming for a "new" engine. You would be absolutely retarded (no, not "mentally challenged") if you paid $12K for an engine alone. If someone has actually paid that for one then good for the builder.

Can anyone guess why I just remembered this and busted out laughing?

[dd46637]

http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...hp?f=10&t=5139

Apparently there really are 10-12k Vee motors.

[Amon]

Dave,

You can ask what ever you want for a particular item, whether or not someone
agree's and pays your asking price is a different matter.

Mark

[sracing]

Dave,
You can ask what ever you want for a particular item, whether or not someone
agree's and pays your asking price is a different matter.

Mark, Exactly. However there are engines being sold at those prices, and thus the bulk of the racers out there think that you have to have one of them to WIN. Not true of course, but it does put upward pressure on the asking prices. Then some people will believe that you can't be competitive with a low cost engine. (also not true)

It is true that a shop can't build a good engine for under $7000+. I think that is too high. The smart deal is to get one of those ~$3500 engines that are available, that you have seen run, or know the history on. Even if you want a refresh you are still well below $12000 or $7000.

[tlandon]

Ok another one of my negative posts.

VW motor for 11K? No carb or manifold? I wonder why no carb or manifold?

No offense, but anybody that walks away from the rest of the field in a "Spec" class is usually doing you know what.

Seen it many times in kart racing.

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

Also, you cannot run up front with a low cost motor. You cant run up front in any racing venue with a low cost motor. It's low cost for a reason. The motor in V racing is 80% of the package to run up front in my opinion.

[Tiago Santos]

Dave,

You can ask what ever you want for a particular item, whether or not someone
agree's and pays your asking price is a different matter.

Mark

I agree 100%! But those of us that claimed 12k motors existed were indirectly called crazy.

Tlandon, I have no doubt that Mike's motors are 100% legal. His car and gear are heavily scrutinized at the runoffs..

[Bruce]

Why do some discount driver ability and car handling so easily? A good motor will only allow you to be in the front half of the Runoff in straights, but nowhere near the leaders, if you do not have the talent or ability to drive or have a good handling car. It is the complete package.

[sracing]

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

You are (wrong) The top 4 engines at the run-offs are gutted and checked for compliance.

Also, you cannot run up front with a low cost motor. You cant run up front in any racing venue with a low cost motor. It's low cost for a reason. The motor in V racing is 80% of the package to run up front in my opinion.

Sorry, IMO opinion you are wrong again. We (son) ran 6 nationals (and one regional in 1998 and won them all. Q 4th in the run-offs and led the race for a lap... A high cost motor probably guarantees you good HP and longevity. However a "low cost" motor does not mean that it is low on anything.

[rave motorsports]

When we torn down the motor on the Caracal C I purchased directly from Bill Noble that he was listed as a driver of this in the log book, this is what we found: a flywheel way lighter then spec, the top of the pistons fly cut off with the corresponding amount machined off the bottom of the jugs so as to not change the displacement. Just stating the facts here not accusing.

[Daryl DeArman]

A high cost motor probably guarantees you good HP and longevity. However a "low cost" motor does not mean that it is low on anything.

Yep, people put too much value, IMO, on the pedigree. You'd pay much less for something very very good just underutilized There are some vintage motors out there with better heads on them than the "best" heads available to you from your well known engine builder.

[Daryl DeArman]

When we torn down the motor on the Caracal C I purchased directly from Bill Noble that he was listed as a driver of this in the log book, this is what we found: a flywheel way lighter then spec, the top of the pistons fly cut off with the corresponding amount machined off the bottom of the jugs so as to not change the displacement. Just stating the facts here not accusing.

Fly cutting pistons doesn't affect displacement, that's purely a function of bore and stroke.

Different engine builder and prior owner, mine had a custom ground cam with same max lift and duration, just vastly differently shaped lobes. Measuring lift at every 5 degrees of crank rotation made it quite apparent. That was no accident. Carb was just a different interpretation of what could / couldn't be done to certain areas.

[sracing]

When we torn down the motor on the Caracal C I purchased directly from Bill Noble that he was listed as a driver of this in the log book, this is what we found: a flywheel way lighter then spec, the top of the pistons fly cut off with the corresponding amount machined off the bottom of the jugs so as to not change the displacement. Just stating the facts here not accusing.

Can't talk about the flywheel, but the piston and jug cut is legal and always done. You are correct it doesn't change the displacement, but it lightens the pistons and moves the ring set up closer to the top of the piston, effectively increasing the compression ratio.

I suspect someone changed the flywheel later. In the run-offs impound the flywheels are weighed. There are certainly ways to cheat and get by with it possibly, by the flywheel weight is too easy. You get caught.

[rave motorsports]

Jim
That's what I meant that displacement didn't change but the shorter stroke in effect makes it into a " Stroker" motor if my thinking is correct and adds a torque helping acceleration out of the corner. I am suprizes that changing the spec on the piston and jug is considered a legal modification. That's good to know.

[sracing]

Jim
That's what I meant that displacement didn't change but the shorter stroke in effect makes it into a " Stroker" motor if my thinking is correct and adds a torque helping acceleration out of the corner. I am suprizes that changing the spec on the piston and jug is considered a legal modification. That's good to know.

No stroke change occurs. The crank dictates the stroke, piston speed etc. All that occurs is the piston is lighter and the ring pack closer to the top of the cylinder. CR is not specifically called out in the rules. Only deck height, displacement, and head cc's with flat top pistons. So with the rings closer to the top of the piston you seal more of the wall, and that contributes slightly to ACTUAL compression ratio.

Yep it would contribute to both torque and HP.

Weird little engines..

[sracing]

Why do some discount driver ability and car handling so easily? A good motor will only allow you to be in the front half of the Runoff in straights, but nowhere near the leaders, if you do not have the talent or ability to drive or have a good handling car. It is the complete package.

For sure. I remember when I first started racing, and I thought everyone was cheating since they were faster on the straight. It took us a few races to figure out the other guys were coming out of the corner at 500+ RPM more than me....Thus killing me on the straight. (and the corners) Due to the low end performance and overall low HP, the Vee is not a point and shoot car. The straight is part of the corner.

[Stan Clayton]

Ok another one of my negative posts.

VW motor for 11K? No carb or manifold? I wonder why no carb or manifold?

No offense, but anybody that walks away from the rest of the field in a "Spec" class is usually doing you know what.

First of all, while there are plenty of specified parts on and in a Vee, the engine is still a an open-wallet affair, and the carb and intake manifold are both the keys to making power and two of the parts in a Vee engine one can spend the most on.

That's why up above I suggested imposing a 27mm FST-style intake restrictor on FV while allowing any intake manifold. The power is capped, engine costs go down and longevity and reliability go up. Otherwise the logical extension of the present paradigm is that eventually FV engines are as expensive as FA engines, and go about as long between overhauls.

[Amon]

Stan:

-How much if any would a 27 MM restrictor plate reduce the engine horsepower
of a Vee??

-Why did you suggest a 27MM restrictor plate?

-As in many cases, someone should test a Vee with one in place to judge it's effects.

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1/2
02' Citation

[Stan Clayton]

Stan:

-How much if any would a 27 MM restrictor plate reduce the engine horsepower
of a Vee??

-Why did you suggest a 27MM restrictor plate?

-As in many cases, someone should test a Vee with one in place to judge it's effects.

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1/2
02' Citation

I am told by FST guys that the 32mm restrictor they use with their 34mm carbs knocks about 2 hp off the engine without the restrictor. The idea is not so much to reduce power significantly, but rather to remove the manufacturing variability of the carb and intake manifold from the equation. People spend lots of money finding and massaging the right ones...why do you think Michael is selling his $11k engine minus these critical parts?

The 32mm restrictor in FST reduces the notional cross-sectional area of the carb throat by a bit over 10%. To reduce an FV's carb by a similar amount, about 26.5mm is needed (I suggested 27mm without first confirming the area reduction). If I had access to a dyno I'd do the testing myself.

IMO it can't hurt, though frankly it's probably too little, too late, as I am not convinced that reigning in FV's runaway engine and tire costs will significantly improve car counts.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I am told by FST guys that the 32mm restrictor they use with their 34mm carbs knocks about 2 hp off the engine without the restrictor. The idea is not so much to reduce power significantly, but rather to remove the manufacturing variability of the carb and intake manifold from the equation. People spend lots of money finding and massaging the right ones...why do you think Michael is selling his $11k engine minus these critical parts?

The 32mm restrictor in FST reduces the notional cross-sectional area of the carb throat by a bit over 10%. To reduce an FV's carb by a similar amount, about 26.5mm is needed (I suggested 27mm without first confirming the area reduction). If I had access to a dyno I'd do the testing myself.

IMO it can't hurt, though frankly it's probably too little, too late, as I am not convinced that reigning in FV's runaway engine and tire costs will significantly improve car counts.

Just to clarify, I'm selling the motor without a carb and manifold strictly due to the quantity of what I have. I currently have 4 strong motors....all with some runoffs history, i.e. wins or poles. I don't own 4 carbs and 4 manifolds that are worthy of being mated to an engine like this. So some of my motors must go without the carb and manifold.

We have spent most of the development on the engines themselves, and very little on carbs and manifolds. You can restrict the intake all you want, but it still doesn't prevent work being done to minimize friction, windage losses, ect. Those are the little things that take a lot of time, yet produce some good results..

[Steve Davis]

...IMO it can't hurt, though frankly it's probably too little, too late, as I am not convinced that reigning in FV's runaway engine and tire costs will significantly improve car counts.

Stan,
IMHO, it *COULD* and probably *WOULD* hurt. Things are already bad enough in our groupings and I'm confident that THAT is a serious detriment to getting new (or even old) people into or BACK into the class. ANYTHING that is done that slows the class as a whole is a BAD thing. Back up near the top of this thread, you were promoting "how to make FV faster" .. now you're going the other direction.

At least, at the moment, we still have a fair number of people still in the class. The Committee is working HARD to keep it that way and possibly improve car counts. Again, ANYTHING that slows the class at this point is BAD!

OTOH, if you want to implement things that slow all the other OW classes by about 20%, that would help FV quite a bit I think .

Steve, FV80

[budawe]

The romantic illusion with restrictor plates doesn't last very long when one realizes that over 70% of the NASCAR engine r&d costs go into restrictor engines. Remember their motors are virtually spec as well.

I find it curious that the top engine builders in the class choose not to post but thanks to Michael for pointing out that great power, from any motor, comes from an entire maximized system, not a couple of components. It's a fact well known by professionals.

[Stan Clayton]

Steve, the only thing I'm "promoting" here is combining FV and FST. At first I thought further restricting FST would do the trick, but it turns out that probably wouldn't work. Since then I've been having a free ranging conversation about numerous ideas, including a discussion of restrictors.

Need to speed up FV? There isn't any mystery here, and the options are right in front of everyone: increase CR (Solo Vee allows 10:1 and big valves for engines up to 1600cc), allow bigger carbs, free intakes and allow more cam lift. Any while the Committee is at it, allow FST-style dry sumps to help with reliability and longevity. I guarantee that FV can be sped up. All it takes is the willingness to do it, because for sure no one FV is grouped with will consent to slowing down.

[Stan Clayton]

We have spent most of the development on the engines themselves, and very little on carbs and manifolds. You can restrict the intake all you want, but it still doesn't prevent work being done to minimize friction, windage losses, ect. Those are the little things that take a lot of time, yet produce some good results..

No argument from me, Michael, and thank you for clarifying the sale conditions. That said, FV folks DO spend lots on carbs and intakes, and a restrictor WILL cap engine output and remove the "magic carb & intake" as a variable. The Club has decades of experience with them and knows they work.

[Amon]

Mike:

I hope you realize that none of my previous posts were meant to criticize your asking price. What you ask and what you accept for the engine you're selling is your business, and yours alone. I wish you good luck in the sale and good luck in 30 days at Road America!

Mark Farnham

[tamnoz]

I have read almost this whole thread and don't understand something. I have been around since I was a kid and that's longer than I care to think about. People keep talking about speeding up FV with CR, carbs and what not. Are we forgetting that the bottom end on a 1200 is the week link. You'll have con rods scattered all over the track if you start to push a 1200 much past where they are. It has been interesting reading .
Jim Oswald

[BLS]

We already have a "restrictor" of 28.194mm, the bore of the 28pci carb from the throttle shaft down.

[Daryl DeArman]

I find it curious that the top engine builders in the class choose not to post but thanks to Michael for pointing out that great power, from any motor, comes from an entire maximized system, not a couple of components. It's a fact well known by professionals.

Yep and when 2 engines are otherwise equal (both prepped to the same degree) the better carb, manifold and head combination makes a better package

I have read almost this whole thread and don't understand something. I have been around since I was a kid and that's longer than I care to think about. People keep talking about speeding up FV with CR, carbs and what not. Are we forgetting that the bottom end on a 1200 is the week link. You'll have con rods scattered all over the track if you start to push a 1200 much past where they are. It has been interesting reading .
Jim Oswald

Make them more powerful and the crank and rods won't last as long IF you keep the rotating assembly the same weight. Why not up the CR while utilizing lightweight quality forged pistons?

Want to reign in the carb/manifold war without slowing the cars down? Spec manifold that flows better than the best known manifold now and a larger spec carb with much better manufacturing tolerances to eliminate the parts-bin blueprinting.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Mike:

I hope you realize that none of my previous posts were meant to criticize your asking price. What you ask and what you accept for the engine you're selling is your business, and yours alone. I wish you good luck in the sale and good luck in 30 days at Road America!

Mark Farnham

Thanks Mark,

I didn't interpet your reponses in a negative way. I expected some backlash over the asking price anyway. As with everyone else I generally agree that the price of FV motors is getting high, but I also don't want to sell this motor for below it's worth just to support the notion of FV being cheap racing. The market determines the value, not me. There is some added value in the price due to us offering discounted rebuilds to whoever buys it, and there is a lot more work that went into this motor them most FV motors. For example we spent over 10 hours on the crankshaft alone just carefully shaping and balancing it. It's a work of art in itself.

Michael