I've stopped commenting on this subject because no one ever believes me.
I've stopped commenting on this subject because no one ever believes me.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
Good Lord!
How much is a set of those radial Hoosier's???Originally Posted by racerdad2
I know guys in Pro F2000 that spent $8400.00 each race weekend just in tyres.... there is no upper limit
Re: Cost Per Race
$1400.00 a set mounted, balanced, installed... arrive & drive... fully supported data - aero - chassis- tire engineers & mechanics... stickers every time out for optimum data... practice, quali, race... they were all in...
"An analog man living in a digital world"
So, I take it you have raced a FB or FC
Don't think you are allowed new tires for every session in either of the pro series. I think it is 6 tires per weekend (official qual/race sessions)
Re: Cost Per Race
That makes sense... they may have been talking trash to a new guy... meor they were playing in a different class & I missed that in the bench racing session... Thx for the right info... which I can count on here... give me another ten years & I may have some facts to share...
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Burkey
I'm just starting out in an old CFC Reynard... it's a bucket list thing. track days only so far. I've been going to races helping crew & getting a sense of the realities of all this. I've already had my share of offs & mechanical failures. I'm buying used tires and other miscl hand-me-downs. My son & I have been kart racing for 7 years. He'll be 14 come November. Trying to give him the opportunities I didn't have as a kid. Honestly, I thought the transition for me from karts would be a piece of cake. I had NO IDEA just how fast these things are and how much time it takes to learn to prep, set-up and be competitive on track. I've got my 89 Reynard fairly well sorted. However, the driver (me) needs a lot of work... hoping, one day, to be able to run in an FB... incredible cars...
"An analog man living in a digital world"
That's about what we were spending for the FC using Berget used tires and living at the track or, Motel 6's. Includes small repair stuff like bent A-arm and broken brackets on occasion.
Last edited by rickb99; 08.06.13 at 3:43 PM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
One thing to remember when running in the F1000 series is one of the biggest expense items (tires) is offset greatly by the generous contingency award put in place by Hoosier. In 2013 Hoosier is giving the US Formula 1000 Championship 100 tires to dispense as contingency awards. Race winners win a complete set of tires and with 2 random tire giveaways at each race (4 per weekend) to non-podium finishers. That means every driver that compete in the series has an opportunity to win free tires.
Once again I would like to thank Hoosier for their continued support of The US F1000 Championship.
Hoosier rocks!
I would also like to thank Hoosier Tires for their support of F1000.
Not only does Hoosier make a fantastic race tire, they also are a great sponsor. As one who has been fortunate enough to win some tires, I can attest that they are the easiest people in the world to deal with when it comes to claiming your prize.
Within 30 days of winning your tire(s) you simply fill out their form and fax it in. Then in a week or so, tires show up at your door. It doesn't get any better than that!
So here's to the folks at Hoosier Tires. You rock!
Costs(Greed) and too many classes has killed SCCA.
Same thing happened in Karting.
Your average Joe cant afford any of this stuff anymore. We used to be able to!
Used to get close to 1000 kart entries from all over the country at the IKF Road Race Nationals at IRP back in the Late 60's.
Used to watch a trail of 10 or more nose to tail Formula Vees run that way the whole race and a bunch of slow dudes behind them. Our next door neighbor had one and I used to go over to his garage and drool over it. Now you watch one guy spank everybody in what is supposed to be a cheap "stock" class. I wonder how that happens?
Now SCCA racers are mostly rich wankers that never drive their cars as fast as they are capable of going. Nothing wrong with that.
50K for a motorcycle engine formula car? 2k or more to race it one weekend!
Sorry for the rant. I used to love motorsports. Raced Karts for a lot of years. Now more than ever its all about money. Especially at the so called Professional Level.
No question about it....to many formula classes!
Re: Cost Per Race
In defense of costs... these new Formula cars are incredibly sophisticated. The chassis engineering & aerodynamics are truly state-of-the-art. These cars are worth every penny. I remember when a turn key FV was $3,500.00 & candy bars were $.05. Inflation sux... Tire costs - again, as a new guy I wondered why it costs $1k for a set of tires for my CFC Reynard that are good for, maybe, 12 cycles ? Now, I know... Because they're worth it
"An analog man living in a digital world"
You are 99% right. You live in Lauderdale? So do I. I have one of those motorcycle formula cars. I just got through a divorce, and am proud to say I made with my car, my truck and my trailer(tools, equipment, etc.). It may be a few months before I go racing again as I am still dusting my financial ass off, but show up at the next regional at Sebring or PBIR, and I can show you how I can do it for $500. Ok, $700. I just did some math in my slow head. It may be more for a National next year(will they still call them Nationals?) with sticker tires and all, but I've been doing this for over 20 years, and it cost a couple grand back then when I got started...
And one more thing
It may be just a regional, but if you can finish first overall in the "wings and things" run group at Sebring, that would be a major accomplishment. The competition is pretty tough...
There is no doubt that you can spend as much as you would like on F1000 but you can also make a very competitive car for a very reasonable price if you do the work yourself. Go find an RF 94/5 VanDiemen, sell the engine, trans, bell housing and any thing else that you do not need and for about 5k you have everything except a motor, dif, a bunch of tubing and some welding equipment that is required to get going. I know that is way over simplified but that is how it was done 30 years ago. People built very good cars in their garages.
Or if you have the money and do not have the time (or patience and skills) go buy a car that someone else has already figured out and developed.
You can build a very capable car for under 20K if you can do the work yourself. Of course in the end you may have been better off working some OT and paying for a good used car but there are choices.
I've got to say that the greed argument is a new one. I know there is an obscene amount of money being poured into racing, but I don't really see anyone getting rich from it. I really don't think greed has killed SCCA racing as it clearly isn't dead. I will also go against the normal argument and say that too many classes isn't actually the problem either.
Have you ever looked at one of those motorcycle engined formula cars?50K for a motorcycle engine formula car? 2k or more to race it one weekend!
Re: Cost Per Race
Its the economy.... adjust for inflation & you're getting a lot of car in FB. Honestly, these cars are phenomenal. Really pretty inexpensive considering how trick these cars are. Its waaaaay cheaper than FA & nearly as quick, sometimes quicker. Cost per weekend is actually quite low. Afterall, these aren't entry level cars... nor is my old Reynard, as I'm finding out
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Sorry for the post. I did not mean to offend anyone.
Just a frustrated guy that always wanted to race cars
but never had the money or the drive to pursue it.
I have seen several new FB cars up close. Firman, Stohr, Van Diemen, etc.. Very cool cars.
I know they are fast and they sound great. Just wish I had that
kind of money. They just seem overpriced to me.
As far as greed goes. If 6K for a "stock" vw beetle engine isn't
greedy than I guess I am wrong.
Please don't take my post too seriously. Have fun with what you're doing
and be safe. Thanks.
I don't think you offended anyone- It's all good...
Sometimes when you throw your two cents worth in here, you get ten cents back!
Re: Cost Per Race
Amen to that
"An analog man living in a digital world"
You should really take a look at f500 or FST - really pretty affordable and tight racing.
Your point is take though, I was at a prep shop a few weeks ago and was looking at a set of shocks that were $10K more than the entire build on my first car.
Except for the Runoffs we use 1 set of tires for each double National/Major weekend and test day. We are usually very competitive.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Compare to the price of a Corvette or Porsche 911, then and now. Seriously.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Fellas ---
What is absolutely an enigma to me is this:
Why not, in the tire-area, simply mandate an inexpensive, very long-lasting tire for each given category?
By long-lasting, I mean half a season -- more! This was the way it was some years ago, and the racing was fantastic. Tire-costs were essentially a non-factor.
Also, the slip-sliding of racing on a hard tire made for great elegant driving displays on the track; the cars didn't look like slot-cars -- you could actually see who was working out there. (Also, cars with hard tires were fantastically fun to drive).
Why not simply remove a great chunk of your yearly racing budget by mandating the use of a spec tire. No one gains by this; no one loses by it.
But everyone saves money, attends more races, and the savings in this area would also attract more folks into the sport.
It's a no-brainer to me.
Can anyone help me better understand the resistance to this type of approach for the betterment of the sport?
Thanks,
Chris
Re: Cost Per Race
Many have tried, including me
"An analog man living in a digital world"
No but, you have the same engine as everybody else in your class (cept fo the Zetec guys but they aren't down at club level yet). So with the proper setup on that 1989 Reynard you have a GOOD chance of running near the front and on a 'lucky' occasion taking a checker flag!... I paid $9k for my Reynard
Go race some weekend where Keith Averill can help you with some tips.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
The tire manufacturers will not make any money and thus they will not supply tires to us. Where is Goodyear?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
It is a very complicated subject, even though it looks simple on the surface. We had a really good thread in the FF section. When you look at the track time, and tire costs, and various tire rules, having a spec tire does not equate to costs savings automatically. There need to be several other factors or concessions that fall into place to make them work. Take a look at this thread:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58138
Also, there is no magic bullet. There is no race tire that will last half a season and is inexpensive. What you describe is a treaded street tire like what is on you 4-door sedan.
Just call John Berget. On the regional level, he's pretty good. $240, including shipping will make it for the weekend. On my FB.
Or scrounge up some take offs from some other guys. But be careful. When the really fast guys are throwing tires away with only 2 or 3 cycles, they are doing it for a reason. Those tires are toast.
A lot of different ways to save money. Drink a case of beer after the festivities and pass out in your lawn chair. You just saved $80 bucks on a hotel room!
I'm joking....
Last edited by Brett Lane; 08.10.13 at 6:32 PM.
I just did a test day with a gentleman who used that tire softener stuff...believe me it really worked. It won't make them as fast as new, but pretty close especially considering it is $30 or so. Well worth it if you are looking to stretch a set of tires.
There are lots of ways to save money. I agree, use John Berget for used tires, they are a great deal for the regional racer. The quality racers will spend ten's of thousands each year to tow, travel (hotel), mechanical, food, tires, entry fees, fuel etc. They can usually afford this as most are professionals who own business's or are independently wealthy. For the guy who wants to go out and enjoy the sport in a F1000, you need to budget your funds. Have a set amount on what you want to spend each year, then try to fillful as many races as possible, either regional or national races within a region. To have to tow to the major tracks for a championship series, you need allot of money. Keep in mind this is disposable funds with nothing gained in returned except the thrill to race and have possible bragging rights. The top ten racers of the F1000 series, I am sure; are spending a ton of money each year to enjoy their passion, with really nothing in return. There is no hard prize money here.
While many say the costs to run an F1000 is low, it is not. Especially if you want to be a front runner. The cost of entry fees, new tires etc and potential mechanical issues can drive the cost into the $20,000 to $40,000+ range annually without considering the cost of the car.
You must really enjoy the sport, have the passion to race, because there are no monetary rewards within SCCA racing.
Yes, this year there is a strong F1000 Championship Series, with some awards. But when you really add up the rewards many are certificates for discounts on products that you have spend money on to even get the discounts. So it costs money to get the discounts from the sponsors.
The sport needs sponsorship for hard cash to cover towing and fuel. Needs sponsorship from hotel chains for free lodging. Sponsorship for tires (Hoosier is doing this). Sponsorship from restaurant chains for free meals. The list can go on.
So while some can do it for the fun, on a beer budget, most racers are spending much more. Yes, it's cool to own and race an F1000 which I have done, but the bottom line is, these cars do cost more than most racers anticipate when they buy the car. I think this is one reason why we see many F1000's changing hands of ownership. The costs are beyond the average persons disposable income levels, and most realize this after just 1 or 2 years of ownership. It's no fun to let an F1000 sit in a garage, not race, and just have to look at it.
I do like the idea however, of drinking the case of beer and passing out in your lounge chair at the track. The cockpit of the F1000 is very comfortable, so I would suggest try sleeping in the car overnight at the track, another way to save a few bucks.
Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Former Phoenix F1K-07 F1000 #77 owner/driver
website: http://www.formularacingltd.com
email: sonewmexico@gmail.com
Re: Cost Per Race
Just add mosquito repellant & an umbrella & you're good to go... then, again... with enuf beer.... you'll never notice bugs nor rain
"An analog man living in a digital world"
I remember a couple of years ago, most of the front running F1000 guys were using up an engine almost every weekend. Don't think that's true any more but, I don't think the engines have been as reliable as everyone expected.
Because of slightly different engine rules, D/SR's are a little more reliable then the F1000 rules allow.
I remember one guy having to take his car down to STOHR in Portland Saturday night in between the Double National races in Seattle to have the engine changed.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Re: Cost Per Race
Consumables
"An analog man living in a digital world"
That's the way it was in the Northwest when we got our FC. ONE other car racing out of Vancouver, Canada. Now, thanks to our 'starting effort' the club (ICSCC) now has over 10 FC's per race entry.... no one to play with up here near the tundra. Keith has great FC / CFC series to run
Push the class and what great fun they are at reasonable prices and they will come and play. Just wish we still had ours. But they went back to Michigan where they began life.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Re: Cost Per Race
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.... FB can be done for fun with a modest budget :thumbup: cool cars :thumbup:
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Magic bullets...
Also, there is no magic bullet. There is no race tire that will last half a season and is inexpensive. What you describe is a treaded street tire like what is on you 4-door sedan.
Only this: In the Seventies there were racing tires that lasted half a season -- and on front running cars. Goodyear Blue Streaks and Blue Dots, etc. Firestone and Dunlop made comparable "boots"...
I think Jay Novak may have a point... that the tire companies might not want to make long-lasting tires in that they would obviously sell many fewer of them... But then again, what if grid-sizes were restored to their former levels, during the halcyon days of 40-60 cars coming to race in more than a few categories?
And, I believe, some company would make these tires... some company would step up. If not, why not do what was done in English Formula Ford in the early years? High performance street tires were mandated. And the fields were huge.
There are no magic bullets. Racing was and will forever be... expensive. But in the tire-area, folks are just tossing dollars to the wind. I find the resistance to changing something in this area... interesting. A money-saving solution could so easily be figured and implemented. Folks racing now could then take that saved money and throw at other things. Folks not racing now... well, they might just throw their hats into the ring.
This built-in cost (of throw-away tires) hurts the sport at the amateur level immensely. I think it hurts the sport far more than people know. Formula One mandates the tires used! Why not us?
Off my soap-box now -- thanks ---
Chris
/..
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
The only requirement needed to get a Spec tire approved for the class is to put it into the rules. Send a letter to the CRB at www.crbscca.com and the letters will be reviewed. If there are enough letters then it will go out for member comment.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
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